So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[josemlopes]

This is Hotline Miami, its supposed to make the player feel dirty. I honestly dont mind, its like what Max Payne 3 did with the strip club thing, it made it feel uncomfortable and sleazy, thats the point. I dont think that it has anything to do with whatever opinion the devs have about rape.

There is rape on TV shows and movies, does that mean that the director aproves rape? No, its just part of the story they are telling, even if its just to give to advance a character arch. Its valid there and its valid here.

 

[Zeldias]

Why should you be concerned? For example, in Mortal Kombat 2011 you see a heart ripped out, a body torn in pieces or in half, hands ripped off, a head crushed etc.

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

You understand that rape and sex are mutually exclusive things, right? Like, sex is sex and the puritanical position on it is problematic (and typically sexist, in the sense that a woman is less valuable post-coitus, etc). Rape, meanwhile, is an invasive (and extremely gendered(and by gendered, I mean to say that women are more commonly sexual victims, and are more often blamed for their victimization, etc)) act of violence. Also it's kind of absurd to compare MK's ultra-violence to rape. MK's violence is so over the top at this point that it's a self-parody; how often will you see a guy uppercut another guy's head off three times or freeze a man then shatter him to pieces? On the contrary, how often are women (or people, really, as a male survivor of sexual violence) raped or otherwise sexually assaulted? You see what I'm saying? What you're saying is like saying "What's the big deal about flamethrowers? Mario can throw fire FROM HIS HANDS AT WILL!"

Anywho, the issue with depicting rape in a culture where women are more commonly victimized in this way, in a culture where we typically blame the rapist (see Steubenville for an example) is that it often ends up cheapening the victimizing nature of this thing in some way. Especially in this industry, rife as it is with men (and therefore the male privilege that is the foundation of the cultural issues with rape that I mentioned). So if we're talking about men writing about an issue that women largely suffer under, it needs to be approached with a lot of empathy and skill. So I wouldn't be surprised at anyone immediately turning away in disgust at that reveal.

In saying all this, I'm not saying this thing in Hotline Miami 2 might not work towards some worthwhile and interesting and valuable nuance; haven't played the game or seen any videos or read anything about it. But I can say that I'm approaching this with extreme trepidation.

 

[JudgeGame]

Crimes are crimes and hate crimes are hate crimes.

The whole "hate crime" thing is stupid. You don't know what was in somebody's head when they committed the crime.

I know what is in society's head and that is all you need.

Yeah that's all you need to convict people.
Some half-baked bleeding heart nonsense about "society" and "the man".

If you don't want to go to jail follow the law.

 

[Caiphus]

Crimes are crimes and hate crimes are hate crimes.

The whole "hate crime" thing is stupid. You don't know what was in somebody's head when they committed the crime.

I know what is in society's head and that is all you need.

Yeah that's all you need to convict people.
Some half-baked bleeding heart nonsense about "society" and "the man".

If you don't want to go to jail follow the law.

What kind of a response is that?

 

[odolwa99]

What kind of a response is that?

Yeah, he should have said "If you don't want to go to jail, follow...the LLLAAAAAAAWWWWW!!

 

[JazzJack2]

Crimes are crimes and hate crimes are hate crimes.

The whole "hate crime" thing is stupid. You don't know what was in somebody's head when they committed the crime.

I know what is in society's head and that is all you need.

Well good for you, but I think you'll find most judges won't have an Omniscient insight into everyone's mind like you do.

 

[Weaver]

Is media not allowed to portray rape?

 

[CBanana]

Meh, the first game was already horribly sexist and the second game honestly isn't really pushing new boundaries there. Like the first game, most of the media will ignore it because it's indie and thus has a lower profile than its AAA counterparts.

 

[JazzJack2]

Meh, the first game was already horribly sexist

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

 

[CBanana]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

 

[JazzJack2]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

Not every game needs to give a balanced attention to each gender to avoid being sexist and your claim that the game shows women as weak is a lie because it actually only shows a SPECIFIC female character as weak. (Not the same thing)

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh, good, we're going to force another controversy....

After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

The internet really didn't "blow up" until some dumb jerk decided to talk about how rape would be a defininng, character-building moment for Lara Croft. Essentially that the badass we all know today exists because some dude raped her in the past. The fact that she wasn't raped is irrelevant because some douchebag went and commented on how the rape would be.

If you're not just trying to stir shit, and I hope you're not, at least portray the controversies right. People try to force these comparisons so hard it's almost a rape analogy in itself.

 

[CBanana]

ot every game needs to give a balanced attention to each gender to avoid being sexist and your claim that the game shows women as weak is a lie because it actually only shows a SPECIFIC female character as weak. (Not the same thing)

When she's the the absolute most prominent character and featured in the advertising in sexual victim mode, it's pretty explicit that the game is far more likely to see women as weak rather than strong.

 

[Something Amyss]

Not every game needs to give a balanced attention to each gender to avoid being sexist

They don't. It'd just be nice if people stopped whining that games aren't sexist if that's what they want out of their games. If you enjoy sexist games, roll with it. If you're against all things being balanced, be mature enough to understand that said imbalance is the grounds upon which isms exist, and therefore will engender sexism claims.

 

[hazabaza1]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

That same female character is also heavily implied to be one of the most powerful characters in the game universe and represents the Id of the main character, essentially being the only thing from stopping him going postal.

Also I highly doubt she was supposed to be a trophy as, again, it's implied that once she's saved (from a very real situation but we can't talk about that hush hush sexism) she freely chooses to become romantically involved with the player character rather than him holding her ransom. Again, probably part of the Id representation.

Other than that, the second most prominent female character is probably the hardest boss in the game, and is neither a damsel nor a victim unless you count being killed by the player as victimizing in which case (because someone has to say this) the game is sexist towards men because every male character excluding the Protagonist is portrayed as insane and bloodthirsty, whilst being completely faceless and only exist to be killed for amusement.

But honestly, in the nitty gritty, Hotline Miami is a game about killing people and having fun with it. I don't quite understand how people can get the idea that it is sexist, and if it really is sexist it's by no means "horribly" sexist. There's far worse things in the gaming industry to get up in arms about.

 

[JazzJack2]

ot every game needs to give a balanced attention to each gender to avoid being sexist and your claim that the game shows women as weak is a lie because it actually only shows a SPECIFIC female character as weak. (Not the same thing)

When she's the the absolute most prominent character and featured in the advertising in sexual victim mode, it's pretty explicit that the game is far more likely to see women as weak rather than strong.

The game doesn't see women as anything and the same goes for men, this game makes no commentary on gender issues and should be taken as such. Art and media only comment on specific social issues if they choose to do so and bringing in concepts that are not relevant is futile, saying Hotline miami is bad because it make no attempt to represent genders equally is missing the point of the game.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

GOOD.

I'm at the stage where I WELCOME any game with rape in it, because clearly a bit of desensitisation wouldn't go amiss!

It is, at it's core, a game about the most vicious, over-the-top violence and having the player deliver that and then reflect on it afterwards. The characters can be the most despicable people imaginable, both antagonists and protagonists. It's too early to say if the game is structured in a way that condones or encourages rape, or shows it in a positive light, but if I had to speculate I'd say the fat guy is probably not a sympathetic good character!

There is no reason that a game that has ridiculous levels of bloodshed and shows all levels of callous violence should not have rape in it.

EDIT: Oh look. It wasn't even a rape scene. Well there you go.

 

[Bashfluff]

Good. I look forward to seeing what they do with it in the game.

 

[CBanana]

The idea that the woman is an extension of the male character by being the character's id is even more problematic as it suggests that she's even less of a character in her own right. Also, the "it's just a dumb game" argument doesn't really refute the arguments presented but seems like more of a clumsy attempt to close discussion on it.

 

[EvilRoy]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

That same female character is also heavily implied to be one of the most powerful characters in the game universe and represents the Id of the main character, essentially being the only thing from stopping him going postal.

Also I highly doubt she was supposed to be a trophy as, again, it's implied that once she's saved (from a very real situation but we can't talk about that hush hush sexism) she freely chooses to become romantically involved with the player character rather than him holding her ransom. Again, probably part of the Id representation.

Other than that, the second most prominent female character is probably the hardest boss in the game, and is neither a damsel nor a victim unless you count being killed by the player as victimizing in which case (because someone has to say this) the game is sexist towards men because every male character excluding the Protagonist is portrayed as insane and bloodthirsty, whilst being completely faceless and only exist to be killed for amusement.

But honestly, in the nitty gritty, Hotline Miami is a game about killing people and having fun with it. I don't quite understand how people can get the idea that it is sexist, and if it really is sexist it's by no means "horribly" sexist. There's far worse things in the gaming industry to get up in arms about.

I never made the Id connection on my playthroughs, its an interesting thought.

Personally I considered her to be a mirror of the sort of purgatory/neutral suspension the protagonist exists in. The slow decay of jackets apartment, and the interaction with the same clerk wearing different hats in every store implied to me that he existed as a person having agency only when killing and simply persisted in all other times. When you pick the hooker up I didn't really think you were saving her, just deferring her death to a later time. It seems a given that she would have died if left in the building, but similarly jacket could never let her leave the apartment alive having seen what she did. So she existed in a sort of empty space between life and death, only being able to direct her own existence so long as she remained in the apartment, just as jacket only existed in the bloody patches between the apartment and the video store.