So that whole "female main characters don't sell" bullshit

[jklinders]

Smacks of a massive strawman argument. Lara Croft has sold well for decades. People are not saying in real life that female leads don't sell. Just shittily written female leads.

You got jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Samus and a bunch more I can't think of.
The trolls and alt right types don't count as they are just being cunts for the sake of being cunts.

 

[Jerast]

I think this is a case of false equivalence, or whatever its called. I think the protagonist's gender is a low priority for most gamers. I dont doubt some people decide based on it, but I do doubt it was enough to matter.

Yeah like to be real this thread was nailed on the front page.

It's just marketing that assumes Grizzled White Male when Brown hair will sell better BECAUSE of that character template, but they're playing themselves, cause if all the good games happen to have that character preset then of course all the sales will indicate that.

I play so much good stuff with female protagonists and there's heaps of great games.

I hate that discussions like this exist, not because I think it's a dumb conversation to have, but because I find it stupid that there probably are some people that won't buy a game cause "i'm not playing as a girl LOL, FUK DAT SHIT".

 

[Squilookle]

Tomb Raider has always done pretty well, and that's been for decades.

If it's always done pretty well, they wouldn't have had to reboot it twice and turn it into a bloodthirsty shooter.

Let's be fair though- has anything ever really needed a reboot before getting one anyway?

 

[McElroy]

I hate that discussions like this exist, not because I think it's a dumb conversation to have, but because I find it stupid that there probably are some people that won't buy a game cause "i'm not playing as a girl LOL, FUK DAT SHIT".

It could be simpler. A person can view that a game with a female protagonist was not made for them and then just pick some other game - usually there are plenty of options.

 

[Rahkshi500]

I don't know what else to say other than agreeing with you, Erttheking. Some people are either stupid in decision-making, focusing too much on what will make the most money for them, or both. :/

 

[Dalsyne]

Main character genders, I would say, are not a super significant part of whether a game sells. And I doubt anyone would say "there can be a near perfect video game that plays really well, but if it has a female main character it's GOING TO TANK". No one has said that.

Yet the OP seems to go on that argument, and there's a term for that, which is strawmanning.

But strawmen aside, it's mostly the genre, marketing and reception that decide whether a game sells or not. Going for female or male main character nowadays, from a publisher standpoint, relies on current trends and group psychology. Consumers tend to get bored of the same stuff all the time: if the mainstream games of the last 2 years have all had male main characters, a female MC can make some difference in sales due to being a "novel" concept. Otherwise, male MCs cater most to the action video game demographic.

I don't agree with this. I would rather give full liberty of expression to the designers' vision, but it's the reality we live in. You sign up under a publisher, you expect them to focus on the science of getting money and making your customers happy. Not all of them, but most of them. Those who fall under the group of people who are most likely to buy your game.

There are great games with female characters. Sometimes a developer will push for a specific gender on their MC despite the publisher's wishes, and sometimes the publisher will agree in order to give the impression they care. The reality is games are made based on the prediction of what the audience will want when the game comes out, which means if a lot of games predict the same thing the audience will be flooded and saturated with similar titles and themes. This can cause a cycle where the new quickly becomes old, and what was old is new again.

 

[Malpraxis]

Horizon is not a really good example. As a famous reviewer here once said, (paraphrasing) fanboys will buy anything as long as it's an exclusive.
And a couple hits don't take away the fact that the best selling games of all time have male protagonists (or female protagonists with ridiculous proportions). Now that the PC police is at full force, they put every color of the skin/gender/sexual preference as side characters to avoid bad press, but I doubt they'll go beyond that.

And why would it matter anyway? Just give me a good story and the chance to curb stomp dudes, and I'm a happy man, even if I'm using a furry as PC.

 

[MonsterCrit]

It's a hold over from the eighties actually. WHere it was actually fairly true. I suppose it goes back to the gaming demographic at the time. You saw a product with boxart that prominently featured a girl it was likely a product meant for girls. and in Vid games, them pattern continued., Look at the nesw library and pick out the games with boxart prominently featureing a female character.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Hello again, sorry for the interruption, but I think my spirited language may have brought on the wrath of the mods.

I'll try to bring it down a peg or two.

Snip

Yeah, auto-correct typo. Meant to say stupid. And you've yet to convince me that I'm stupid.

I don't want to convince you that you're stupid. Far from it. If anything I only wanted to help you not doing yourself a disservice. You seem like a nice person.

You basically said that they would use the information of Horizon selling 2.6 million copies even though it's just out and, even as I type out those words, those numbers are out of date. I think they're stupid and even I know they'd put in more research than that.

And yes, I am saying that, to paraphrase, and while there's probably more variables in the equation than just looking at current numbers, and adjusting projections, that is a method that is consistent with their conclusions in the past. I'm not saying that what they're doing is correct (far from it), I'm only describing their analytical methods (in general terms).

You'd said that they'll compare a game that has been out for years with a game that has been out for nowhere near as long.

Kinda. They'll probably use current sales figures, together with time on the market to project an estimated final sales figure, which they then compare to a confirmed final sales figure of a prior product.

Ok, I took a look at things from their point of view. They're out of touch. Assuming that they think this. After all, this is me calling back to something that happened a few years ago. The idea that women can't sell copies is something that has no real basis in reality, due to how well Horizon is selling. I mean its pretty much made its budget back already, who knows how much it'll make in the long run.

Never said they necessarily weren't "out of touch".

What I said was, just saying to them that they're "out of touch" doesn't really help you promoting your own side, or get them to see the merits of your side.

You don't have to convince me. I'm already on board. You need to convince them.

They already have a reason to listen to me. They want my money. Haven't exactly bought an Ubisoft game in awhile. The one exception was Rainbow Six Siege. And guess what that had in it? Playable ladies.

Yeah, they want you money, but not at the cost of other people's money.

They don't necessarily want to trade two of their current buyers, for one of you. This is where your skills in argumentation comes in, because you (and I) need to get them to see that, there's a way where they can get us on board without loosing any of their current buyers.

 

[Apothecary2]

2B doesn't even come close to being the protagonist of Automata.

 

[jlenoconel]

I'm going to wait to see sales in a few months for this game before I make an assessment of this game's success. If things are still sitting at around 3 million, then the game has performed extremely mediocre, especially for a PS4 exclusive that was hyped up so much.

I don't have a problem with female protagonists, but I don't like this sudden push for "feminism" in video games. Most AAA gamers are men, so it seems pretty futile that these gaming companies are trying to reach a demographic that doesn't exist.

 

[kilenem]

I kind of thought Ms. Pacman was always that proof since you always see more Ms. Pacman Machines that Pacman

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

Whole idea that main character's gender is key factor for game's sales is absurd.

Reeks of morons from marketing getting report from data analysts where in one place is mentioned that main character and identification whith main character's struggles and motives were important part of enjoyment and engagement to customers. Then in another piece of study where customers were asked which characters they'd identify with from presented, majority picked males.
Finally drawing conclusion that majority of their customers being male, who pointed it was important for them to get a good grip on character motives and who pointed toward male characters as ones they can identify with means that... they don't want female protagonists...

 

[KissingSunlight]

I tend to prefer playing as a female character in RPGs when the option is offered. As a male character I usually end up making the choices I would make in that situation. PLaying as a female makes me think on how they'd be reacting in that situation.

What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.

We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.

In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I actually kinda prefer female characters in games. I'm not entirely sure why. I'm sure that there are many reasons for that. I don't always do it. In Mass Effect I played with default male Shepard and in Dragon Age Origins I played first time with a male human and only on subsequent playthroughs I tried a female character. But most of the time I just go with the female character. It's more interesting.

 

[votemarvel]

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

Yet denying that people are different isn't equality either.

Playing as Axel in Streets of Rage II provides a different experience to playing as Blaze, or Max, or Skate. There is a reason to play through as these different characters because you can't play the game in the exact same way.

Play Mass Effect 2 however and the gameplay is the same whether you pick male or female Shepard, you don't have to vary your play style at all. Once you've picked your choice of Shepard there is little reason to go back through as the other.

Play Left 4 Dead and what is the difference between playing as Zoey or Bill? There is no game play difference at all.

I admit my point is simply related to game where you have a choice of character, to me that choice becomes worthless if the game plays the same no matter who you pick.

 

[KissingSunlight]

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

Yet denying that people are different isn't equality either.

Playing as Axel in Streets of Rage II provides a different experience to playing as Blaze, or Max, or Skate. There is a reason to play through as these different characters because you can't play the game in the exact same way.

Play Mass Effect 2 however and the gameplay is the same whether you pick male or female Shepard, you don't have to vary your play style at all. Once you've picked your choice of Shepard there is little reason to go back through as the other.

Play Left 4 Dead and what is the difference between playing as Zoey or Bill? There is no game play difference at all.

I admit my point is simply related to game where you have a choice of character, to me that choice becomes worthless if the game plays the same no matter who you pick.

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

 

[votemarvel]

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

 

[hermes]

It is mostly a self fulfilling prophesy.

One marketing team is consulted by a mayor publisher, and they conduct a focus test. They seem to find a pattern, and the publisher develops their games based on that pattern. Many AAA games (the ones that are used for the metric of "don't sell") are built over committees, and marketing stats have more importance than personal taste of the people involved. If the game is a success, it reinforces the pattern. If the game is a failure, it must have been because of other factors (because no one is better at dodging the blame for bad decisions like executives)... so a pattern that was once "found" is never rebuked.

I am not saying there are not people that get turned off by the idea of playing a woman, because there are, mostly in the range of teenagers and juvenile manchilds (which gets balanced by other manchilds wanting to play as a woman to "see a woman's ass in third person"), but that the pattern is very outdated and has never really been challenged (because one example doesn't disprove a pattern).

 

[KissingSunlight]

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

Would it be controversial if you assign different abilities to male and female, when they are suppose to be the same character? I can easily see people accusing the game developers of being sexist for not allowing the female Shepard to hit as hard as the male Shepard.