So what do we call actual homophobia?

[Xan Krieger]

I'm one of those people who loves gay people but doesn't believe in gay marriage because it doesn't make any logical sense to me and never will. I still treat everyone with respect and I think that's why I get along with pro-gay marriage people. We accept that there's more to someone than whether or not you agree with them on an issue.

That said I think that word is used most often as a cheap insult like the word "bigot".

What's your logical argument against gay marriage then?

Since marriage is one man and one woman then gay marriage is illogical. Hence I wish for civil unions for everyone. I know not everyone shares that logic since everyone has a different definition of marriage but to me it'll never make sense.

That's not actually logic though, since logically you have to acknowledge that marriage has (and does have) many different definitions around the world. More, I assume you don't use the same logic to argue for other things just because they've existed for a long time. In fact what you're doing is a logical fallacy called "Begging The Question" in which you engage in circular reasoning, having provided the conclusion to your argument contained within your premise.

"Gay marriage is illogical because marriage can't be gay."

I don't mind that you have an opinion, so, I'll ask again: in light of what "logic" actually means, what is your logic beyond your expressed opinion?

Like you said, it's circular, and that's all there really is to it. "But why?" Because it is. Yes it's probably a logical fallacy but it's what I've got and it makes sense to me.

 

[RedDeadFred]

This thread has come up in the past.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phobic

The root phobic doesn't just mean fear, pay special attention to the dislike portion. It's not using a word incorrectly, look at any definition of homophobia and you can tell pretty clearly that it refers to someone bigoted.

Of course, if you want to start criticizing words that don't mean exactly what their roots imply, then there's a long list of commonly used words you should tackle first:

awful
backlog
terrific
etc...

Awesome. Fucking "AWESOME".

Really? You had an awesome day? Well please tell me about your grand adventures. Oh what? You got a free foam shot at Starbucks?

That's usually when I realize I'm bleeding, and that my nails have cut into my palm.

To paraphrase Louie CK:
Really? Your chicken wings were amazing? What are you going to do with with yourself? You've limited yourself verbally to a shit life because you used amazing on a bag of chicken wings. What are you going to do when something really happens to you?

OT: Honestly, if you use the word homophobic to describe someone, chances are, the first thing another person thinks of isn't a person who is legitimately scared of homosexuals. They're going to correctly think of some bigoted jerk. You can call real homophobia the same thing if you'd like. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who is an asshole and someone with something uncontrollable.

 

[Xan Krieger]

I'm one of those people who loves gay people but doesn't believe in gay marriage because it doesn't make any logical sense to me and never will. I still treat everyone with respect and I think that's why I get along with pro-gay marriage people. We accept that there's more to someone than whether or not you agree with them on an issue.

That said I think that word is used most often as a cheap insult like the word "bigot".

What's your logical argument against gay marriage then?

Since marriage is one man and one woman then gay marriage is illogical. Hence I wish for civil unions for everyone. I know not everyone shares that logic since everyone has a different definition of marriage but to me it'll never make sense.

That's not actually logic though, since logically you have to acknowledge that marriage has (and does have) many different definitions around the world. More, I assume you don't use the same logic to argue for other things just because they've existed for a long time. In fact what you're doing is a logical fallacy called "Begging The Question" in which you engage in circular reasoning, having provided the conclusion to your argument contained within your premise.

"Gay marriage is illogical because marriage can't be gay."

I don't mind that you have an opinion, so, I'll ask again: in light of what "logic" actually means, what is your logic beyond your expressed opinion?

Like you said, it's circular, and that's all there really is to it. "But why?" Because it is. Yes it's probably a logical fallacy but it's what I've got and it makes sense to me.

Ok, but I think it's worth not calling it "logic", since it's the literal opposite of logic.

To me the logic was "If marriage equals man+woman then gay marriage is illogical"

 

[Xan Krieger]

I'm one of those people who loves gay people but doesn't believe in gay marriage because it doesn't make any logical sense to me and never will. I still treat everyone with respect and I think that's why I get along with pro-gay marriage people. We accept that there's more to someone than whether or not you agree with them on an issue.

That said I think that word is used most often as a cheap insult like the word "bigot".

What's your logical argument against gay marriage then?

Since marriage is one man and one woman then gay marriage is illogical. Hence I wish for civil unions for everyone. I know not everyone shares that logic since everyone has a different definition of marriage but to me it'll never make sense.

That's not actually logic though, since logically you have to acknowledge that marriage has (and does have) many different definitions around the world. More, I assume you don't use the same logic to argue for other things just because they've existed for a long time. In fact what you're doing is a logical fallacy called "Begging The Question" in which you engage in circular reasoning, having provided the conclusion to your argument contained within your premise.

"Gay marriage is illogical because marriage can't be gay."

I don't mind that you have an opinion, so, I'll ask again: in light of what "logic" actually means, what is your logic beyond your expressed opinion?

Like you said, it's circular, and that's all there really is to it. "But why?" Because it is. Yes it's probably a logical fallacy but it's what I've got and it makes sense to me.

Ok, but I think it's worth not calling it "logic", since it's the literal opposite of logic.

To me the logic was "If marriage equals man+woman then gay marriage is illogical"

OK, then lets look at the dictionary definition of logic.

Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity

A particular system or codification of the principles of proof and inference

The systematic use of symbolic and mathematical techniques to determine the forms of valid deductive argument.

and so on.

You didn't do that. You took an assumption (Marraige must mean X, historically it has) which has been proven empirically wrong over and over. From that known wrong assumption you didn't perform any logical operation, you simply begged the question.

Have opinions, everyone gets to have them, but you don't get to pretend they aren't more than opinions without consequences.

Looks like logic to me, based on my definition of marriage I try to substitute two men or two women and they don't fit the criteria, therefore gay marriage is illogical to me. Isn't that logic? It's like in a computer "this and this must be true in order for this to be true".

 

[JimB]

In my opinion, shaming people for having a psychological condition that they can suppress but never eliminate is almost as bad as shaming people for having a sexuality that doesn't conform to your beliefs or preferences.

Nimzabaat, you are making a common error here: You seem to be starting from a belief that a word's meaning is objective, when it's not. "Homophobia" may have, at one point, referred to people with a legitimate psychiatric disorder of avoidance, but it doesn't mean that any more, any more than "ultimate" means "final" or "literally" means "without exaggeration." The word's meaning is defined by its most common use, and its most common use is to describe assholes who have a problem with gayness.

And as long as you're pleading for sympathy, please allow me to say as someone who has a host of untreated psychiatric conditions, pity for the ill is fine and all, but I lose my pity the instant someone's condition becomes the source of bad behavior toward others. By all means, let us exalt these poor martyrs you describe who stiffen their shoulders and fight down the screaming terror that climbs up their gullets at the sight of gay people in order to behave decently toward them, but anyone who uses fear as an excuse to attack others is someone who has my contempt regardless of any medical diagnoses.

 

[EternallyBored]

In my opinion, shaming people for having a psychological condition that they can suppress but never eliminate is almost as bad as shaming people for having a sexuality that doesn't conform to your beliefs or preferences.

Nimzabaat, you are making a common error here: You seem to be starting from a belief that a word's meaning is objective, when it's not. "Homophobia" may have, at one point, referred to people with a legitimate psychiatric disorder of avoidance, but it doesn't mean that any more, any more than "ultimate" means "final" or "literally" means "without exaggeration." The word's meaning is defined by its most common use, and its most common use is to describe assholes who have a problem with gayness.

And as long as you're pleading for sympathy, please allow me to say as someone who has a host of untreated psychiatric conditions, pity for the ill is fine and all, but I lose my pity the instant someone's condition becomes the source of bad behavior toward others. By all means, let us exalt these poor martyrs you describe who stiffen their shoulders and fight down the screaming terror that climbs up their gullets at the sight of gay people in order to behave decently toward them, but anyone who uses fear as an excuse to attack others is someone who has my contempt regardless of any medical diagnoses.

Just to quickly point out, it didn't start out as a term to refer to fear of homosexuals, as a diagnosis the word structure doesn't make sense as homophobia would just mean fear of the same, you'd probably add something like eros or erotic to make it like homoerotiphobia, or fear of the same erotic love, or something like that, I don't know latin, but I know phobia diagnosis wouldn't be so vague to just use the term homophobia for homosexuals.

Not that many mental health professionals would use such a word anyway, beyond the most common types of phobia, specific situational phobias tend to just get called that instead of breaking out fancy latin names for every single fear in the world. The long lists of phobias you see online don't get specific diagnosis codes for them, so a person with a phobia regarding homosexuals would just have a specific phobia diagnosis towards homosexuals, you wouldn't acutally diagnose them as having homophobia.

Which is why I find the Nimzabaat's plea to be misguided, actual fear of homosexuals is not and has never been referred to as homophobia, while the term can invoke comparisons between the psychological diagnosis and the layman's term, as you said language is subjective and sometimes imprecise, the public will stop using a convenient term like homophobia right around the time scientists manage to convince the public to stop using hypothesis and theory interchangeably. As in, don't hold your breath because it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

 

[Nimzabaat]

In my opinion, shaming people for having a psychological condition that they can suppress but never eliminate is almost as bad as shaming people for having a sexuality that doesn't conform to your beliefs or preferences.

Nimzabaat, you are making a common error here: You seem to be starting from a belief that a word's meaning is objective, when it's not. "Homophobia" may have, at one point, referred to people with a legitimate psychiatric disorder of avoidance, but it doesn't mean that any more, any more than "ultimate" means "final" or "literally" means "without exaggeration." The word's meaning is defined by its most common use, and its most common use is to describe assholes who have a problem with gayness.

And as long as you're pleading for sympathy, please allow me to say as someone who has a host of untreated psychiatric conditions, pity for the ill is fine and all, but I lose my pity the instant someone's condition becomes the source of bad behavior toward others. By all means, let us exalt these poor martyrs you describe who stiffen their shoulders and fight down the screaming terror that climbs up their gullets at the sight of gay people in order to behave decently toward them, but anyone who uses fear as an excuse to attack others is someone who has my contempt regardless of any medical diagnoses.

Thanks JimB, that's exactly the distinction i've been trying to get people to make. Though i'm not "pleading for sympathy" in as much as i'm trying to stop people from fighting mindless bigotry with more mindless bigotry.

Captcha: foregone conclusion (sorry Captcha, can't I have a little faith in people?)

 

[Jadak]

Misusage of the term phobia aside, you're not an asshole for that. I will maintain to my last breath that two dudes kissing is incredibly gross, and I don't feel anyone has any right to tell me I'm wrong or an asshole for feeling that way.

The difference is, I'm not going to stop them doing it, nor attempt to, and don't feel it's my place to stop them from doing their gross business any more than I'd want them to dictate my opinions on the matter. People can believe what they want, it doesn't make you an asshole no matter what you call it, acting on it makes you an asshole.

 

[Dizchu]

Misusage of the term phobia aside, you're not an asshole for that. I will maintain to my last breath that two dudes kissing is incredibly gross, and I don't feel anyone has any right to tell me I'm wrong or an asshole for feeling that way.

That's not homophobic at all though. I'm not particularly fond of the image of old people making out in public but it doesn't make me hate old people.

It's perfectly fine to find certain acts of affection uncomfortable.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Double post, sorry. Please ignore this. I must beat my phone more...

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Now I have avoided this topic for a bit, as it seemed a little trivial as per usual. However, you have got me thinking; with the prevailance of evidence of vast sexual ubuse throuout our history, would "true" homophobia be a side effect of men trying to be "men" with pasts that would be shameful and confusing to them. I can easily imagine how this sort of fear could be conditioned through generations before our digital boom.

Otherwise its just plain and simple hatred through ignorance. You still made me think though. I like that.

Captcha: garlic yum. Teehee captcha, not now!

 

[Anschau]

I am not even sure how you would diagnosis a medically-induced fear of gay people versus an indoctrinated-induced fear.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I am not even sure how you would diagnosis a medically-induced fear of gay people versus an indoctrinated-induced fear.

I would imagine in the same way you'd diagnose Judeophobia (fear of Jews). People who suffer from phobias have symptoms and that's how you diagnose it.

http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/homophobia/symptoms/

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/h/homophobia/symptoms.htm

I like that this line comes up in the reading "Homophobia is a disease which affects the entire society. Though the American Psychological Association has proclaimed that it is no more abnormal to be gay or lesbian than it is to be left-handed, people are still fearful about it." Seeing as there is also a phobia about left handed people (sinistrophobia).

I'm also pretty sure that anyone who seeks treatment for their homophobia (the articles mention drugs or hypnotherapy) is not a bigot. A bigot usually doesn't know something is wrong with them whereas a person suffering from a phobia knows damn well that it's their problem and no one else's.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snippous

Believe you me, I know a few things about recognition of a problem, but people can be afraid of weird things in life. Bird feathers and clowns are a thing, if I understand right. The common person would be surprised by this, but still...if you could have a fear of people in make-up and bird feathers, then a Gay Pride Parade could be quite a shocker. Even still, I poured on the part about stupidity because there are alot of dumb people out there.

 

[Something Amyss]

Aren't 90% of these threads dedicated to arguing over terminology anyway?

I think this has more to do with the observer effect.