nice m8 but i was busy in the weekends (MW2,BFBC2, and other important things)boyvirgo666 said:
So, what is it with the US education system?
- Thread starter The Geek Lord
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Dumb kids with shitty parents going to schools with bad teachers in an utterly flawed, almost spoonfed and regurgitated system in dire need of a reform that's still being governed by a bunch of old, clueless, but well-meaning chaps that fail to see the actual problem.
This, my friends, is the US education system stripped down to the very core. A rotting, apple core, to be precise.
This, my friends, is the US education system stripped down to the very core. A rotting, apple core, to be precise.
sansamour14 said:
I separated your quotes because I want to address the both of you. So first you. The US is a great country. The school system is not all that bad, it's actually about average, to slightly below average (in math) across industrialized nations. This does not included the higher education system which is world renown. Seriously colleges across the US are some of the greatest in the world, and the US dominates lists of top colleges in the world.
The "broken healthcare" is something I was flamed several times for opposing in the first place. I don't know why, but I have the feeling you supported it before it passed and people started to figure out how dumb the plan was in the first place. I repeatedly had to say I don't oppose health care, I just oppose the current plan.
Pollution is a striking example of how propaganda and selective information tarnish peoples view. The US used to be home of some heavily polluted cities, but during the 70s new technologies where implemented in vehicles, and factories that drastically reduced the pollutant output. Now they have shifted to measuring pollution output by CO2 release. A horrible indicator of pollution, even if you buy hook line and sinker into global warming. Even then the US is not the top polluter. China is, and they don't have the same technologies to reduce the really deadly pollutants, which are building up at incredibly rates over there. Already they have overwhelmed several river systems, basically making them barren. There river systems used to be home to some of the most varied and exotic species outside of the Amazon.
Intolerance? I have traveled all over the US, and only very infrequently have I run into an issue with intolerance. I am not white either. I am of Mexican descent and it shows. I am not saying you can't seek it out, but I have seen more hate and intolerance over seas then I have ever seen here. I have in fact gotten into several fights overseas simply because I was not from their country.
Edit: It is my fault for not making clear that I understand the vast majority to take an equal rights approach, and I that Feminist does cover more then just the radical groups. In plenty of places across the country feminist took on more negative connotations, and came to mean just those groups more extremist groups, this is not necessarily true across the US, and certainly not true across the world. I did not mean to imply that all groups working for equal rights shared the same ideals. Women rights group sprang up as a term for advancing equal rights, leaving feminist as the more negative term. Just wanted to clarify.
Everyone in the world has a screwed up idea of what equality is. Feminism is a good example. Sure equal rights, and equal opportunities is great and what is right, but that isn't really the goal of feminists, they want to empower women, and will fight for any right for women, even if that comes at the expense of others. Most don't even think they are doing wrong. They can't see how nobody is actually equal, and you can't pass rules and laws to give everyone a handicap to make up for the short comings of others. The most you can do is allow equal rights and equal opportunities, then allow people to find their own place.
Read the above text. Yes I know it is long, but seriously read it and think about it. It should answer much of your misgivings.webchameleon said:
The one I really wanted to address was the political party. The US has a two party system. Neither party does what you say it does. Sure there can be other political groups, the green party, and the like, so I am sure somewhere in the US there is a "political party" that perpetuates racial stereotypes and hate, how much political power does it have.
I noticed you where responded to by another user who brought up the British National party, you realize a national political party that wields any real power making the same kind of statements in the US wouldn't last long. I have seen some of the fliers from that group. Scary stuff. They actually have elected officials in office. No I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with Britain, just with those people, and yes many of those officials where elected on platforms other then racism, because that is not the only thing the party stands for. I am just trying to say that it's never as bad as you want it to be, and nowhere near as bad as the people telling you this want you to think it is.
Politics has swung focus to how bad things are, and has run campaign after campaign to tell the people of the US how bad the education system has gotten (under the current administration), or how bad the environment is (because the current administration is lax), or crime, gun violence, pollution, pornography, you name it someone things it's in dire straits. It is just another way of saying the current administration is a crook, a liar, and a swindler, but this other guy promises to fix things. People keep forgetting one part and focusing their attention on the doom and gloom part of the message. How this entire site can understand this is done with video games, but not for a second think it isn't done with everything else under the sun is beyond me.
Being a Canadian with what I gather is a similar schooling experience to that of the US (except for the general quality and ability to be taken seriously is toned up several degrees,) I'm not really sure what the problem is. There are several things that I could say against schools in general, mainly including their desire to pack everyone into the same rigid structure. I definitely get the whole hatred for the absolutely retarded students, and it can only be worse the further south you get. I personally know several people from down south (no offense to anyone, but against my wishes,) and the ideas are just so different from up here, or over in Europe, or even China or Brazil. Knowing people from California as well, I'd say that California's got to be one of the best off states in terms of the schooling system.
Also, I know that the US's super-capitalist structure means that private schools are actually better than public schools. Up here, it's the other way around; private schools actually end up having really shitty teachers, while all the best go to public schools because of higher pay and better working conditions.
Also, I know that the US's super-capitalist structure means that private schools are actually better than public schools. Up here, it's the other way around; private schools actually end up having really shitty teachers, while all the best go to public schools because of higher pay and better working conditions.
That's not quite true. More like, it appears to have been designed to create retarded monkeys. The monkeys were not retarded before they started school.The Geek Lord said:
I'm from the UK, and the schools I attended also exhibited that syndrome and I hated it. You get your first exam when you're 11 years old. It's touted as the most important thing you'll ever do. It's piss easy. From then on, you have exams every year, but mostly they're just to decide which classes you'll be in, whether you'll be sharing classrooms with the dipshits or the smart kids. But the teachers keep on telling you that your entire life depends solely on these exams, so you better study hard or you'll be a janitor the rest of your life. And it's still piss easy. Then the GCSEs come along and pressure ramps up yet another gear, now if you don't revise for six hours every night the government will chop off your gonads. But again, they're pretty easy and have exactly zero effect on the rest of your life (that is, unless you then drop out of school, in which case they decide whether you get to be a janitor of a public toilet or a janitor of an office building). Then you get fucking AS level exams, which have no reason to exist, and are almost important, but not quite. By this time, you've stopped believing anything the teachers tell you about how important anything is. I was lucky in that my parents had always known it was bullshit, and told me so.
So now you've had 7 or 8 years of teachers crying wolf about how you really have to try hard for these exams because they're super important. Then, and only then, do the actually important exams come along: A levels, the only ones the universities are interested in.
Actually, over here, the first year of uni doesn't matter as long as you achieve at least the lowest pass mark, which is pretty easy. You need to pass to be allowed to continue to the second year, but your grades for the first year don't affect your final graduation score. I found the second year pretty easy, too. But then, I did already know a hell of a lot about the subject. Only in the third year did things actually become tough at all, and I ended up dropping out because I was smoking too much weed and not doing enough work - the preceding years had lulled me into a false sense of thinking things would go easy for me.
I studied for my AS levels the first year they introduced one called General Studies. It was mandatory at our school. What tha fuck is that? General Studies? Fuck off. I'm trying to learn serious maths and science here, and you're wasting my time teaching me how to cook, and vote, and tie my shoelaces. Fo fuck's sake. I already done learned that shit by myself, foo'. Get out mah face.
As you can see, the US is not alone in being afflicted with the problems which you highlighted. However, those problems are not the reason why the US education system is broken. They just don't teach you guys enough of the important stuff.
Whenever I think the Canadian school system is horrible (and it is) I can take solace in the knowledge that the American system is a thousand times worse. I went on a trip to New York when I was 10, and I saw a group of American high school students at a museum. They had a number of quiz questions to answer as they made their way through, and I requested a copy of the quiz to see what the questions were like. I could answer every single one of them right off the bat. I was shocked.
Really?-Samurai- said:
Damn, I thought everyone knew that, that was all of the English work in my Kindergarten!
I don't have a problem with what the teachers do, its more of what the government does with textbooks, standards etc.
For instance, why are the only factoids of information on Germany about WW2 (In my public school textbooks)? Why is Communism such a bad thing? I don't know because they wouldn't tell me. All I know is it involves equal pay. OOOOOOOOOH, that sounds like the devil incarnate/sarcasm
Blue_vision said:
Dude, I live in California! We've been deficit-spending for years! Our school system is on the verge of catastrophic failure (I'm not exaggerating--I've been getting letters from my college explaining this). We are the most (2nd most?) "progressive" state in the union, with THE highest tax rates, and we still don't have enough money to fund our programs! Someone help me out here from the States, what is it our State's been threatened with? Insolvency? Being a "failed state"? A federal takeover? It's been in the headlines several times...
I'll look into it, but seriously Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Here:http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/California-verge-System-Failure/2010/06/21/id/362560
(No, we didn't do it. No, it isn't balanced. Yes, it's getting worse.)
We're currently in the hole 19 Billion dollars--37 Billion dollars next year. My college has been laying off its senior employees (or pressuring its best into retirement--I know for a fact). Summer units were cut "80%" this year, and there are still new announcements this semester about future hardships. California sucks, man.
I absolutely hate what the UK university system is like now, the A-level exams are an absolute joke so anyone can get a place, so every university (except a few exclusive ones) are filled to bursting with people just there for the 'experience' and not out of any love for a subject or to try and get a good job.Red Right Hand said:
As far as the US system goes, I heard an NPR debate about this last week, the main talking point was that the teachers unions are apparently all-powerful and they can make it impossible to fire incompetent teachers. They also force a seniority system on schools in terms of pay and who goes first when a round of lay-offs comes hits the school. If you walk into any well run business in the world and ask them why they fire incompetent people they'll tell you that they aren't only useless, they actively hinder progress. Shackling schools so that they can only control staffing in one direction seriously affects their ability to be efficient and deliver a good service to the public.
This problem also affects UK schools to a lesser extent. I think it's fair to say that everyone here knows that having a sh*t teacher can completely kill your interest in a subject, if they were actually held to account for the quality of their teaching and not the grades of the class (which can be manipulated by unscrupulous or lazy teachers by 'teaching to the test' or giving extensive 'hints') the chaff wouldn't last long.
There's a difference between having money and generally having a good schooling system. California might not be able to afford new Macs for every single classroom, but those really aren't the issues that OP is talking about. From what I've heard from my countless friends in California, school is almost identical to Canada, and shares the same stark dissimilarities to other states in the union.webchameleon said:
Before I address this, please understand that the paragraph after the video was not intended to be associated with the rest of the post. Also, don't be presumptuous about my 'individual will'. I'm aiming for Oxford PPE. I can't think of many things that require as much individual will as that.webchameleon said:
Anyway. I'll address on a per-question-mark basis:
1. No, we don't, we just don't see the need for competition on the path to self-fulfilment. Well, I don't, at least.
2. Yes, she did.
3. He was a good student while he was here, so I guess it was a good thing for us. What are you getting at, exactly?
4. Early schooling has a huge influence on your personality. The environment in school, like the environment at home, prepares you for later life.
If the environment is harsh- competitive, masculine, punitive- you will grow up prepared for a harsh life. You will be more aggressive, competitive, better at dealing with conflict, and so on. You will generally view other people as untrustworthy and your competitive enemy.
If the environment is nurturing- collaborative, feminine, reforming- you will grow up prepared for an easy life. You will be more diplomatic, collaborative, a better team player, but worse at dealing with direct conflict, and less independent. You will generally view others as benign.
The USA is generally a harsher environment than Europe, as there is more competition, less stability in life financially (Job security, insurance etc...) and physiologically(Health insurance fickleness). Prisons focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation. There is less of a community-provided safety net should you fall on hard times. You work longer hours. There is a shorter waiting period when you are fired. I think the schooling system reflects this. Do you agree?
Heh, funny thing is, I've never really paid much attention to System's lyrics. I know they've always been heavily political, but it's always been about the sound for me. As for the rest of your post, you're pretty much correct. I'm one of the dropouts you speak of, and, well, them's most certainly the brakes. My choices right now are limited to Coast Guard and a southern grocery chain (if I'm lucky), despite being born to an upper-middle class family and scoring high enough on intelligence tests that school board members decided not to expel me over several incidents because I "might end up curing cancer one day".punkrocker27 said:
The way the schools are set up are a nightmare to begin with, but in America, we've got this fun new thing that's known as a "zero tolerance policy". As one of my much more successful friends put it, it's where they take kids that could potentially be problems, and make them into problems. Highschool would've been weird enough for me, having to cope with severe depression issues and an even worse case of avoidant personality disorder, but since America is a panicky, knee-jerk reactionary nation, a billion new protocols were put into effect after the Columbine shootings, which ultimately resulted in everybody that was just slightly abnormal being singled out and outright harassed by the school's administration. They were breathing down my neck all the goddamn time, sending people into my classes to watch after me, which compounded my mental problems (which should have been really fucking obvious to any licensed psychologist, but somehow went undiagnosed by the bevy of shrinks the school forced on me), and made my life into a living goddamn hell.
For fuck's sake, some of the most intelligent people I knew went on to drop out for the same reason, because smarter people generally tend to be weirder. We got sick and tired of having to apologize for the fact that being born and raised differently from everybody else can be threatening to others. Meanwhile, all the stupids went on to diligently do their work unmolested and graduate.
EDIT: Tried to change it, but I'd already pressed "post". Anyway, when I say "stupids", I don't mean everybody that isn't as smart as me. Most graduates were ranging above and below average. I'm just pointing out that the genuinely stupid people were bothered a hell of a lot less than I was.
It really depends on the school you are at, quite a few school arn't that great and are filled with disenchanted teachers who don't give a crap. I'm lucky I go the the high school I'm at, most of the teachers are young and all of them care about their students and want them to do well in school and at college. We set aside time for college prepatory work and have a ton of college prep classes you can attend. Heck a couple years ago, our school churned out more National Merit Scholars than the private Jesuit highschool in our district.
There are flaws in our education system that should be adressed though, like changing No Child Left Behind and reducing some of that standardization which detracts from actual education. also paying our teachers an actual wage would be good also.
There are flaws in our education system that should be adressed though, like changing No Child Left Behind and reducing some of that standardization which detracts from actual education. also paying our teachers an actual wage would be good also.
Misguided Understanding of how to teach someone something they're not interested in. Because let's face it, it's hard to come by good teachers.
I had a good teacher once, half the class we spent in conversation about just about anything. Sometimes on subject, sometimes on tangent. When it came to learning it was done mid conversation and I've got to say it was not only a fun class that didn't force anything on us as students, but I learned a lot from that class. That was a Physics 2 class in High School.
Not enough classrooms work like that, because not enough of the teachers don't actually like the subject they're teaching. Here we find the three types of teachers:
1)Passion Teachers; The ones who worked in what they're teaching, the ones who can actually pass on useful information and enjoy it.
2)Subject Teachers; The ones who like their subject, but only ever wanted to teach it. They'll get the right information out there, but it's usually not done in a way that really stimulates the subject for everyone. They are just above...
3)Just Teachers; The ones who all they wanted to be was a teacher. No offence to them really, but I think the only people these teachers could help are students who want to become teachers.
Schools are too full of Number 3, couple that with a child's natural tendency to gravitate towards activities they actually enjoy and you get students failing not just because of lack of knowledge but lack of interest as well.
Thus our nation's image is tarnished by poor gpas and not enough graduates.
There's more then one way to fix that: Better Teachers (Like #1, which are usually saved for universities unfortunately), more Diverse Programs that students actually enjoy (why you gotta cut art and music? Really now...), not being stupid by taking the easy route out and just making it easier for students to graduate...
They followed the methods of life and took the path of least resistance. While lowering the grade needed to pass did help people graduate, it did nothing to improve our nation's intelligence.
That seems to the be general consensus. But that's just America, while I wont speak directly at the school systems of other nations there are a few other issues with school systems in general I'd like to point out.
I watched a very nice TED video on Creativity and Imagination, which I feel are the pinnacle of human intelligence. The Man who memorized the answer is not as smart as the Man who solved the problem. Anyway, the talk was on the subject of the school system actually taking from us the ability to be creative, and sadly that is true. Math and Sciences are being watered down to the memorization level of a History Text Book, Literature is no longer an art form just a method of reciting what information you read, and the Arts themselves are being downsized to make room for the Football team to afford better jerseys and Gatorade. Whenever a kid can't stay still because they rather dance, sing, or draw then memorize the exact date of the Battle of Fair Oaks the Teachers think that they're broken of have a focus disability.
Schools are just bad all together up until you decide you go to a College or University, but by then it may be too late. And the cycle continues...
... That was a long post... I apologize for that.
But Yes, School Systems suck. America's probably one of the worst.
I had a good teacher once, half the class we spent in conversation about just about anything. Sometimes on subject, sometimes on tangent. When it came to learning it was done mid conversation and I've got to say it was not only a fun class that didn't force anything on us as students, but I learned a lot from that class. That was a Physics 2 class in High School.
Not enough classrooms work like that, because not enough of the teachers don't actually like the subject they're teaching. Here we find the three types of teachers:
1)Passion Teachers; The ones who worked in what they're teaching, the ones who can actually pass on useful information and enjoy it.
2)Subject Teachers; The ones who like their subject, but only ever wanted to teach it. They'll get the right information out there, but it's usually not done in a way that really stimulates the subject for everyone. They are just above...
3)Just Teachers; The ones who all they wanted to be was a teacher. No offence to them really, but I think the only people these teachers could help are students who want to become teachers.
Schools are too full of Number 3, couple that with a child's natural tendency to gravitate towards activities they actually enjoy and you get students failing not just because of lack of knowledge but lack of interest as well.
Thus our nation's image is tarnished by poor gpas and not enough graduates.
There's more then one way to fix that: Better Teachers (Like #1, which are usually saved for universities unfortunately), more Diverse Programs that students actually enjoy (why you gotta cut art and music? Really now...), not being stupid by taking the easy route out and just making it easier for students to graduate...
They followed the methods of life and took the path of least resistance. While lowering the grade needed to pass did help people graduate, it did nothing to improve our nation's intelligence.
That seems to the be general consensus. But that's just America, while I wont speak directly at the school systems of other nations there are a few other issues with school systems in general I'd like to point out.
I watched a very nice TED video on Creativity and Imagination, which I feel are the pinnacle of human intelligence. The Man who memorized the answer is not as smart as the Man who solved the problem. Anyway, the talk was on the subject of the school system actually taking from us the ability to be creative, and sadly that is true. Math and Sciences are being watered down to the memorization level of a History Text Book, Literature is no longer an art form just a method of reciting what information you read, and the Arts themselves are being downsized to make room for the Football team to afford better jerseys and Gatorade. Whenever a kid can't stay still because they rather dance, sing, or draw then memorize the exact date of the Battle of Fair Oaks the Teachers think that they're broken of have a focus disability.
Schools are just bad all together up until you decide you go to a College or University, but by then it may be too late. And the cycle continues...
... That was a long post... I apologize for that.
But Yes, School Systems suck. America's probably one of the worst.