So, what is it with the US education system?

[oktalist]

Because American schools aren't geared toward inspiring intellectual curiosity and educating, they're one big processing plant that prepares you to have a job for the rest of your life.

I can't find a video or screengrab of the relevant scene from Invader Zim, so this'll have to do:

"Take a good look, children. It will prepare you for your adult lives in our nightmarish corporate system."

Besides, a population capable of objective, critical thinking is not conducive to an environment where a government is capable of screwing people over for a politician's own personal gain, which may be a very critical factor in the way the education budget is always the first to be cut.

I think you're absolutely right.

It does make me mad when ppl say that america is the gratest country ever with our school system, broken healthcare, pollution, intolerable ppl, and even though we speak of equality we only want it for some ppl

The "broken healthcare" is something I was flamed several times for opposing in the first place. I don't know why, but I have the feeling you supported it before it passed and people started to figure out how dumb the plan was in the first place. I repeatedly had to say I don't oppose health care, I just oppose the current plan.

I interpreted sansamour's mention of healthcare as meaning it was broken before the new healthcare act passed, and perhaps remains an uphill struggle against its detractors.

Everyone in the world has a screwed up idea of what equality is. Feminism is a good example. Sure equal rights, and equal opportunities is great and what is right, but that isn't really the goal of feminists, they want to empower women, and will fight for any right for women, even if that comes at the expense of others. Most don't even think they are doing wrong. They can't see how nobody is actually equal, and you can't pass rules and laws to give everyone a handicap to make up for the short comings of others. The most you can do is allow equal rights and equal opportunities, then allow people to find their own place.

That is quite an outdated view of feminism. I think you'll find nowadays most feminists recognise the a priori differences that exist between the genders, and wouldn't seek to disadvantage men.

...the British National party, you realize a national political party that wields any real power making the same kind of statements in the US wouldn't last long. I have seen some of the fliers from that group. Scary stuff. They actually have elected officials in office.

Only on a couple of town councils; they don't have anyone in Parliament.

Politics has swung focus to how bad things are, and has run campaign after campaign to tell the people of the US how bad the education system has gotten (under the current administration), or how bad the environment is (because the current administration is lax), or crime, gun violence, pollution, pornography, you name it someone things it's in dire straits. It is just another way of saying the current administration is a crook, a liar, and a swindler, but this other guy promises to fix things. People keep forgetting one part and focusing their attention on the doom and gloom part of the message. How this entire site can understand this is done with video games, but not for a second think it isn't done with everything else under the sun is beyond me.

Maybe it's because they're poorly educated.

Seriously, SODAssault has it right. A lacklustre education system leads to a population that tends to be less critical of authority. So it is in the authorities' interests to have a lacklustre education system.

 

[A big red rooster]

I think it's pretty clear that we're all talking about America's public schools. On the other side of things, post-secondary education in the US is second to none.

 

[manaman]

The "broken healthcare" is something I was flamed several times for opposing in the first place. I don't know why, but I have the feeling you supported it before it passed and people started to figure out how dumb the plan was in the first place. I repeatedly had to say I don't oppose health care, I just oppose the current plan.

I interpreted sansamour's mention of healthcare as meaning it was broken before the new healthcare act passed, and perhaps remains an uphill struggle against its detractors.

We can wait for him to respond to clarify, but I wouldn't interpret it that way, because the post itself pretty much shows a belief in any alarmist saying to come along one of the latest being how piss poor the healthcare bill actually is.

Everyone in the world has a screwed up idea of what equality is. Feminism is a good example. Sure equal rights, and equal opportunities is great and what is right, but that isn't really the goal of feminists, they want to empower women, and will fight for any right for women, even if that comes at the expense of others. Most don't even think they are doing wrong. They can't see how nobody is actually equal, and you can't pass rules and laws to give everyone a handicap to make up for the short comings of others. The most you can do is allow equal rights and equal opportunities, then allow people to find their own place.

That is quite an outdated view of feminism. I think you'll find nowadays most feminists recognise the a priori differences that exist between the genders, and wouldn't seek to disadvantage men.

There is no correct term for those groups that still exist entierly to advance their gender or race above others. It is my fault for not making clear that I understand the vast majority to take an equal rights approach, and I used that Feminist does cover more then just the radical groups. I edited my post to reflect this, thanks for pointing it out.

...the British National party, you realize a national political party that wields any real power making the same kind of statements in the US wouldn't last long. I have seen some of the fliers from that group. Scary stuff. They actually have elected officials in office.

Only on a couple of town councils; they don't have anyone in Parliament.

True, but I didn't try to imply different. I said they carried a radical departure from the norm.

Politics has swung focus to how bad things are, and has run campaign after campaign to tell the people of the US how bad the education system has gotten (under the current administration), or how bad the environment is (because the current administration is lax), or crime, gun violence, pollution, pornography, you name it someone things it's in dire straits. It is just another way of saying the current administration is a crook, a liar, and a swindler, but this other guy promises to fix things. People keep forgetting one part and focusing their attention on the doom and gloom part of the message. How this entire site can understand this is done with video games, but not for a second think it isn't done with everything else under the sun is beyond me.

Maybe it's because they're poorly educated.

Seriously, SODAssault has it right. A lacklustre education system leads to a population that tends to be less critical of authority. So it is in the authorities' interests to have a lacklustre education system.

Not necessarily true. The political system, and the goverment cannot really be through of as one united body. It's more of a waring system of ideas, where consensus occasionally pops out, while the US population is fairly apathetic to what goes one, once stirred anything certain topics can mean the end of a political career. Look at California, slashing the education button could spell the end of several careers there. The whole idea that the education system of the US is in such dire straits when it really is about middle ground, to slightly below average compared to other industrialized nations (and again only high school education, as tests usually center around the fifteen year olds) is a direct result of political campaigns. Education is a prime subject during these campaigns, and while nobody really does anything about it once they get into office they do so love to talk about how poorly the opposition is running things.

One of the biggest concerns here in the US never even gets addressed, and that goes back to equal opportunities. Children of successful parents, in rich predominately white neighborhoods always score higher then children in poor predominantly minority neighborhoods. This socioeconomic barrier is what No Children Left Behind was supposed to address, by funneling more money to those schools which receive less of it because of the poorer areas they draw their funds from. However money is not the only reason these barriers exist. They exist even within schools themselves. It's a culture issue as well, and the culture issue is what really needed to be addressed. Something Chicago has done well with, they have been addressing the culture issue behind crime and eduction with an ad campaign similar to the anti-smoking one to apparent great success.

 

[aithilin]

Compared to some other education systems, the curricula for younger age groups (8 to 13, I think) are based purely on the text book supplier which publishes books for the Texas system (Texas orders the most text books for its grade school system, and the suppliers tend to overstock enough for the surrounding states-- what Texan children learn, most others will be learning). Once into high school, the curriculum for individual classes varies wildly for the arts (English, music, etc.) and follows similar standards for the pure sciences (maths, chemistry, bio, etc.) due to the same text book issue. Because the arts are more subjective, teachers are able to vary their lessons based on personal tastes (this also happens in Canada, where one high school is focus on academic papers and grammar while another is on literature, and within those systems there are variations).

It's not that the school system is bad. It's more that it's divided. One set of students will learn one thing, another will learn another. Teachers can gloss things like diverse religions and evolution so long as there's no open complaint against the practice and that complaint is followed up by the school board. A lot of politics go into the school system and it muddles up education in the process-- entire subjects can be dropped, topics can be glossed, and a lack of unified teaching standards really cause some havoc with the overall system.

The competition for post-secondary schools tends to even it out. The SATs are a genius way to force certain issues and topics to be taught, but they just skim the surface of what should be discussed in classes regarding history and literature (personal bias).

The Canadian system is just as bad and divided.

 

[oktalist]

I interpreted sansamour's mention of healthcare as meaning it was broken before the new healthcare act passed, and perhaps remains an uphill struggle against its detractors.

We can wait for him to respond to clarify, but I wouldn't interpret it that way, because the post itself pretty much shows a belief in any alarmist saying to come along one of the latest being how piss poor the healthcare bill actually is.

Oh, right. Sorry. To an outsider, it just sounded like an accurate description of the United States. Yeah, I'm a cynic.

A lacklustre education system leads to a population that tends to be less critical of authority. So it is in the authorities' interests to have a lacklustre education system.

The political system, and the goverment cannot really be through of as one united body.

True, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. It's not a conspiracy, just a general trend.

The whole idea that the education system of the US is in such dire straits when it really is about middle ground, to slightly below average compared to other industrialized nations (and again only high school education, as tests usually center around the Fifteen year olds) is a direct result of political campaigns.

I agree that the US education system is not terrible, just a bit below average on the whole.

The education of Americans is not an issue in UK politics, so I haven't been exposed to the political campaigns you speak of and therefore am unable comment on them.

 

[zehydra]

It's the hierarchy. Everyone involved (except the students) has someone breathing down their necks. At least in public school, the teachers, the admins, and the board are literally TERRIFIED of the state, which governs what ends up happening to them. For god sakes, let the teachers TEACH! I've had enough of PA's standardized bullshit that keeps running the state.

 

[geldonyetich]

Honestly, I don't think American schools deserve a lot of lampooning. The main trouble has to do with:

1) A general lack of communication between the professional and educational world, leading to vital skill gaps that lead to poor job placement.

2) Standards are poorly maintained, and different schools within America are managed with differing levels of competence. Some American schools can and do turn out the best and brightest. Others have severe problems with kids abusing kids/teachers (e.g. gang violence) and/or teachers abusing their kids (e.g. sex for grades).

3) Some people just don't want to pay for their schools, often for conservative reasons, and this leads to poorer standards.

 

[manaman]

We're currently in the hole 19 Billion dollars--37 Billion dollars next year. My college has been laying off its senior employees (or pressuring its best into retirement--I know for a fact). Summer units were cut "80%" this year, and there are still new announcements this semester about future hardships. California sucks, man.

And yet a funny little state two states up is trying to copy you when six years previously we had a $2 billion surplus. I don't see anything to show for spending that. They are spending money they don't have. We happened to be a much better spot then California to start out with, but if the current goverment of this state keeps this up it doesn't look good. The state has already gotten onto my case several times about taxes. I have a sizable enough buisness that I actually pay a bit into B&O taxes, if I am so much as a week late getting my quarterly return in I have up to six calls a day about it, and I am not even the one who submits the returns. Smaller businesses like the guy that owns the repair shop next to me who don't actually earn enough to pay B&O tax regularly lapse 2 or 3 quarters behind without so much as a peep from the state.

Did you know we don't have an income tax? We do have one the highest sales taxes in the nation. Still they are trying to implement an income tax. A bill that has been shot down twice, and the state representatives are trying to push through anyway. Something I will always hate about this state. They pushed through a 50 cents a gallon gas tax (when gas was only $1.75 a gallon) years ago, against the wishes of the rest of the state. When a petition got enough signatures to allow it to go to vote again, the state representatives voted to basically ignore the petition. These people should not be in office anymore, in fact they should have been kicked out for violating the states constitution. Probably the only reason we don't have a state income tax right now is because it would be political suicide for them to force this issue like the gas tax. They can do it and have proven they can do it, but unlike the gas tax where it was only a minor inconvenience to Seattle this will have them in an uproar. And yes the Seattle-Tacoma metro area does determine all the policy in this state. More then half the state lives in the Seattle-Tacoma metro area.

3) Some people just don't want to pay for their schools, often for conservative reasons, and this leads to poorer standards.

It's not only money. Public schools can cost as much as $10,000 per student per year, in some places far more. Private schools can provide a better education often for less then 1/3rd the cost.

 

[Skipper3]

Internet is smarter than all the high schools put together.

 

[manaman]

It's not that the school system is bad. It's more that it's divided. One set of students will learn one thing, another will learn another. Teachers can gloss things like diverse religions and evolution so long as there's no open complaint against the practice and that complaint is followed up by the school board. A lot of politics go into the school system and it muddles up education in the process-- entire subjects can be dropped, topics can be glossed, and a lack of unified teaching standards really cause some havoc with the overall system.

The competition for post-secondary schools tends to even it out. The SATs are a genius way to force certain issues and topics to be taught, but they just skim the surface of what should be discussed in classes regarding history and literature (personal bias).

The Canadian system is just as bad and divided.

To many people will point to standardized testing across the nation as detrimental. It's not. The same things they point out as flaws in the system are easily positives as well. Take for example the complaint that standardized testing causes teachers to only teach the things on the test. A varied enough test will cause curriculum to be more unified across the nation. The tests are unfair to minorities only because of the current socioeconomic barrier, and bringing attention to that barrier is the quickest way to eliminating it. Pouring money on a problem is never going to make it go away, not truly. It is just going to increase tensions between different groups.

The whole idea that the education system of the US is in such dire straits when it really is about middle ground, to slightly below average compared to other industrialized nations (and again only high school education, as tests usually center around the Fifteen year olds) is a direct result of political campaigns.

I agree that the US education system is not terrible, just a bit below average on the whole.

The education of Americans is not an issue in UK politics, so I haven't been exposed to the political campaigns you speak of and therefore am unable comment on them.

I wish people would take a view that the education system is not crumbling to dust. Relax a bit and stop trying to apply emergency patchwork where non is needed. All they manage to do is waste money. They know this, one of the reasons education budgets are cut during a crunch becasue they know they are bloated. As I have pointed out before, the main problem is a culture problem. Bringing up the worst of the education system would be all the is needed across most of this country to up our standings significantly. You only need look at some world competitions. For a piss poor education system the US does fairly well in these. These contests are not as rigged as you might be thinking either, the people who go onto these won local competitions, then state, then nation wide competitions to participate on the world stage. With varied participants from private and public school systems.

 

[NordicWarrior]

I am am middle school science teacher in NJ.

The reason why schools do not perform is more of an unholy alliance of failures.

One reason is mentioned here already, too many different districts with too many standards. What NJ wants me to teach in a year can never be accomplished. Also, if I teach 6th grade in Newark, and the next year teach 8th grade in Atlantic City, I might be teaching the EXACT same topics. When topics are taight is up to each district.

The unions are another HUGE problem. They want money. That's it. Any change, however small, even if it is better for the students, is fought like they are asking the teachers to donate a kidney. In my district, our day ended at 3:25 pm. One half hour after the students left. If I was doing extra credit work, or extra help with my kids, the union wanted me OUT by 3:25. I was made out ot be against the union if I wasn't. All I was trying to do was help my kids pass.

Resources is another HUGE problem. I taught in Newark. They just don't have the money, space, teachers, whatever to keep failing kids back a grade. Some districts do, but not many. In Newark, we didn't use textbooks. We used something called a FOSS kit, a kit with experiments. They are great supplemental materials, but they don't cover the NJ standards. So when my students take the state test, they have been educated with materials that do not cover the test.

These are just a few ideas from one teacher. There are more, I just wanted to give my 2 cents.

 

[manaman]

What I can tell you is that they care less for the students and more for a mix of power, money and "Just cause! Two!" randomness.

For me high school was a joke. I didn't pay attention, I never did my homework, hell half the time I didn't even stay awake. I still passed my classes. Why? Standardized tests so simple my pickup truck could pass them by dripping oil onto the answer sheet.


God isn't America great?


On a side note sometimes I feel ashamed to live here. This country really has gone to the shitter. Glad I'm not the only one that can see that.

this

Please read the posting etiquette guidelines stickied in this forum before you post again. Short posts like that are not appreciated around these parts. You should also try skimming over the thread before just quoting a post with "this" as many of the concerns this person presented have been addressed over the course of the previous 80 or so posts.

 

[MikailCaboose]

The biggest problem is that the public (i.e government) school system in the US was NEVER designed to make it's attendee's successful. It was designed to make them capable, capable for menial, physical labor to ensure that there was enough of the population to run the consumer services.
Said system also makes it quite convenient for government to sap power for itself.

 

[Demongeneral109]

It's true, actually. America is an incredibly intolerant, racist place. Did you know we have an entire political party dedicated to perpetuating class warfare and racial tensions? If you don't think exactly the same way the Party does, it tries to blacklist you from your ethnic community. It's scary shit.

Read the above text. Yes I know it is long, but seriously read it and think about it. It should answer much of your misgivings.

Dude, I *live* here. I've taken more history courses than my college counselor knew what to do with. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. The Democrat Party has had a foundation in racism and class-warfare from the beginning. Getting swallowed by the Marxists was the best thing that ever happened to it. They can much more easily pass hate off as love now than they could in the mid-20th century.

you're getting the new Democratic Party mixde up with the pre-Civil Rights Democrats. The Old Democratic party was, indeed, a white-supremacist party,mainly focused in the southern United States. After FDR and the great depression though, the Democratic Party became the party of the working class, many of whom were African American. It was at this point where the Republicans and Democrats had a re-alignment and the Republicans became the party of the Economic elite and (for a time) white supremacy. The Democrats, not the Republicans, passed civil rights legislation. So, if you want to be technical, the current Republicans are resemble pre-FDR Democrats than Modern Democrats do.

Also, why does everyone assossiate the Democrats and Marxists? Yes, both are left-leaning groups, but the Democratic party is more centrist than most would like to think. Several European countries have stated that Americas' "Liberal" party (Democrats) would equate more to their own "Conservative" party. What American Liberals want is an economic system similar to European socialism (so far as I understand it anyway)to allow anyone to get medical treatment and other nesessities without jepordizing their financial security (or making their situation any worse.)

As for the topic, Teachers Unions have a large part to play in damaging the Educational system, when it was proposed to eliminate Summer Vacation and just make longer breaks (Christmas, New Years, ect.) the unions resisted it vigorously, and helped kill the bill. The Government doesn't help by having lax standards for passing (probably, again, thanks to unions)increasing educational budget and standards would fix these problems I imagine, but we allow parasites to leech entitlements to absurd levels, that however; is another topic entirely.

 

[aithilin]

It's not that the school system is bad. It's more that it's divided. One set of students will learn one thing, another will learn another. Teachers can gloss things like diverse religions and evolution so long as there's no open complaint against the practice and that complaint is followed up by the school board. A lot of politics go into the school system and it muddles up education in the process-- entire subjects can be dropped, topics can be glossed, and a lack of unified teaching standards really cause some havoc with the overall system.

The competition for post-secondary schools tends to even it out. The SATs are a genius way to force certain issues and topics to be taught, but they just skim the surface of what should be discussed in classes regarding history and literature (personal bias).

The Canadian system is just as bad and divided.

To many people will point to standardized testing across the nation as detrimental. It's not. The same things they point out as flaws in the system are easily positives as well. Take for example the complaint that standardized testing causes teachers to only teach the things on the test. A varied enough test will cause curriculum to be more unified across the nation. The tests are unfair to minorities only because of the current socioeconomic barrier, and bringing attention to that barrier is the quickest way to eliminating it. Pouring money on a problem is never going to make it go away, not truly. It is just going to increase tensions between different groups.

Standardized tests are really the only way to unify the varied curricula. Though the accusation that teachers will just teach the basics to pass the test is a valid concern because it does happen (not saying that it is the standard for the system, I don't know that). But the tests shouldn't just be limited to the SATs after secondary.

I agree with you about bringing attention to socioeconomic barriers. But a real problem is that people see the cost of programs like free lunches and after-school activities and want to cut them (despite the fact that both types of programs are really helpful to students and families), or they continue to cut the money spent on teaching supplies (forcing underpaid teachers to pay out of their own pocket), and most text books are tailored to whatever Texas does when it reviews and edits its own system (leaving kids in, say, Vermont, learning about the Alamo but not trade agreements with Canada or the battles in the War of 1812).

 

[Demongeneral109]

What I wanna know is why everyone cares so damn much. I get if it's a big deal that, say, some important politician or doctor is uneducated, but why do people care how much the average person knows about literature, history, and science? But if I were to come across someone who said "ghesundteit" at the mention of the name Nietzsche, or is uncertain of what Heisenbuerg Uncertainty Principle is, or begin a sentence with the word "but," I would think no less of him.

Having a strong educational basis generally leads to a better society as a whole. We don't want every person to understand string theory or somthing like that, but/
1. a poor educational system limits those who want to achieve, by not challenging them intellectually (personal experience talking, my last year of high-school was me napping in my AP classes becuase the teachers failed to make the subjects engaging; I got credit for every class and I'm pretty much skipping my freshman year.)
2. a well educated society tends to have more income per-capita, having a solid education can promote problem-solving skills and make a better worker. Who doesn't want to be financially secure?
3. The poorly educated are more likely to be involved in crinimal activity, and, as a whole, are more violent and intolerant than their educated peers. Which ties into #2 and my first statement.

 

[spartan231490]

Based on what I've been told and on account of experience. It's in-consistent. It's all done by districts which all have their own idea for what is proper education. Some places are good, some are bad. That's pretty much it (from what I've been told).

I disagree, it's pretty much shit everwhere, and i believe this is cause by two things. Tenur, and a break down of discipline. Do to tenur and the teachers union, if you have teached at a high school for like 3 years, you basically cant be fired unless you commit a crime. Look at that teacher who was accused of molesting her students, they suspended her WITH PAY, until she was convicted. This means, that the only teachers who actually do thier jobs are the new ones, who aren't good at it yet, and the really old ones who are already elligible for retirement. To top it off, punishments usually stop getting worse after like, the second offense, and most kids who are repeat offenders enjoy suspension, it's just a vacation for them. with no child left behind, it's almost immpossible to expell a kid, and most states have a max number of days a kid can be suspended before the school has to hire him a private tutor while he's suspended. In new york state, this is only like, 3 days. In my school, the biggest punishment i ever heard of was a two week suspension, FOR ASSAULTING A TEACHER. so, when you cant punish the kids, and you have to cater to the dumbest kid in the class because of no(every) child left behind, and the teachers either don't care or suck at thier jobs, kids dont learn. Add to that the fact that the curriculum you learn in high school is biased and often ourtright wrong. In a freshmen orientation class at my college, the professor told me "half what you learned in high school is useless, and the other half is wrong." College is better, although there is a little too much jumping through hoops and taking classes that don't matter, like PE.

 

[Funkysandwich]

We're currently in the hole 19 Billion dollars--37 Billion dollars next year. My college has been laying off its senior employees (or pressuring its best into retirement--I know for a fact). Summer units were cut "80%" this year, and there are still new announcements this semester about future hardships. California sucks, man.

I think your state is debt is higher than Australia's national debt.

Although, we're hardly better off here - the only good schools are private schools that cost way too much. I went to a crappy public school and most of my classmates were borderline retarded, or on drugs, or both.

So basically, quality of education comes down to how much money your parents throw at your education.

 

[spartan231490]

What I wanna know is why everyone cares so damn much. I get if it's a big deal that, say, some important politician or doctor is uneducated, but why do people care how much the average person knows about literature, history, and science? But if I were to come across someone who said "ghesundteit" at the mention of the name Nietzsche, or is uncertain of what Heisenbuerg Uncertainty Principle is, or begin a sentence with the word "but," I would think no less of him.

Having a strong educational basis generally leads to a better society as a whole. We don't want every person to understand string theory or somthing like that, but/
1. a poor educational system limits those who want to achieve, by not challenging them intellectually (personal experience talking, my last year of high-school was me napping in my AP classes becuase the teachers failed to make the subjects engaging; I got credit for every class and I'm pretty much skipping my freshman year.)
2. a well educated society tends to have more income per-capita, having a solid education can promote problem-solving skills and make a better worker. Who doesn't want to be financially secure?
3. The poorly educated are more likely to be involved in crinimal activity, and, as a whole, are more violent and intolerant than their educated peers. Which ties into #2 and my first statement.

4) we vote for our leaders, less education means more gullible voters, means worse presidents, look at bush.

5) we are sick of how stupid these fuckers are, and because high school diplomas mean nothing, it's almost impossible to get a job without a college degree, and those are expensive.

 

[insaneHoshi]

.... uncertain of what Heisenbuerg Uncertainty Principle is

Ah ha i see what you did there