So what videogames do you consider to be GOOD art?

[Spark Ignition]

PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: This is not a rehash of the old debate on whether games are art. I'm rather asking what you find most effective in the games you consider to be art. My intention is to start an artistic discussion with games as the focus, rather than a general discussion about games as art.


Basically I know the videogame community has reached some form of resolution with Roger Ebert's statement that videogames can never be art (very sensibly we are ignoring him), but as an art student and (I would consider myself) a hardcore gamer, I can't help but keep thinking about this. For my dissertation this semester I'm using Ebert's statement and articles to write a point-counterpoint argument in defence of games as an art-form (I know it's been done to death in the gaming community but shockingly completely overlooked at art school, hence why I want to bring it up).

What games would you guys recommend I play (all in the name of research hehe) to support or reject this claim? What do you think a game needs to accomplish to be 'art'? DO you think it'simportant that the gaming industry gains recognition as an art form or could you not care less? I will try to look into any games you suggest (budget allowing) and read any articles (on either side of the debate) you could reccommend.
I will try to suggest any titles I can think of.
For anyone who somehow missed out on the article that sparked off so much controversy, you can read it here:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

 

[strum4h]

Art can be anything. Video games are art through their medium. There are always going to be people that say games are not art to try and justify they have no value.

 

[Bat Vader]

One game I would really recommend to help support your claim is Okami. It is a beautifully designed game. The story is wonderful and details in the world are fantastic. If anyone needs to try and prove a game is art to someone this game needs to be first on their list. I think we need to show the world that games can be art and not just things for people to use in their spare time.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Okami works...

But mostly all of them.

Music is art.

Animation is art.

Games have music and animation. How is that not art?

 

[Et3rnalLegend64]

Rather old topic now, but I'll always stand by Okami as one of the ultimate examples.

 

[cybran]

PORTAL, that is all

 

[75percent_nab]

God of War, the first one. Why? because it's a good attempt at greek tragedy and the main character, Kratos, is almost perfectly charactarized.

Psychonauts,Portal and Bioshock.

At least that's what first springs to my mind. If you need more ideas i would strongly suggest watching Extra Credit.

 

[kidwithxboxlive]

fallout 3
good graphics
well desgined and got the "my country just got nuked so i dont think its jolly" look and didnt make it happy.
dismemebering bodies AND music...covered

 

[Axeli]

This always reminds me of a quote from Dexter:

[looks at a landscape painting of a cabin]
"That's not art, it's cottage porn"

 

[Spark Ignition]

Interesting, I will look into Okami. And I fully agree with Portal.

The thing about this discussion is agreeing what IS art? And that's something people have been shouting at each other over since there was first a concept of art, so perhaps it's better to ask which games are GOOD art and worthy of recgnition as such (yes Portal falls into thios category).

Personally I would say that the value of art is derived through a combination of it's effectiveness aesthetically, emotionally and intellectually (simply put the best art is interesting to look at, provokes some sort of feeling and makes you think), and Portal is a good example that hits all the right buttons. It has a unique style, through use of evocative music, humour and aforementioned visual style it is incredibly immersive and grabs the player's emotions (that the game through GladOS makes you genuinely upset to throw a plastic box into an incinerator... 'nuff said.), and of course there's plety of food for thought. And, most importantly, it's FUN. Gmaes have the potential to offer so much more and grab the player/viewer far more firmly than any other medium yet invented.

 

[Spark Ignition]

This always reminds me of a quote from Dexter:

[looks at landscape painting of a cabin]
"That's not art, it's cottage porn"

I love Dexter... I hated Lila but yeah good quote.

 

[WolfEdge]

Games represent a kind of unique point between what you might call "classic" art, ie. media like books and what not that contain specific take away points and messages, and "modern" art, that is to say, pieces or works that carry no specific message or idea except that which is created by an audience. Video games are a marriage between the intent of an artist or artists and the interaction of an audience. You don't get one without the other. To that end, you might emphasize games that best represent this unique aspect.

For example, Boom Blox is a game that is based solely around physics. I've played in games where, the object being the obliteration of your opponent's forts to destroy a finite number of gems, a gem has flown over to an opposing player's fort. Thus, so long as that second player wished it, he could keep the first player in the game. This is gameplay that, while fun was something that arose out of a unique situation not expected from either the designers OR the players. Other games you might explore are Minecraft, as another example of the previous point, and Portal, which has a specific narrative and is more closely associated with other art forms.

Hope this helps.

EDIT

Also, for an interesting definition of art, check out Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics.

 

[boholikeu]

Ok that's a title designed to start a riot, but I had to get your attention somehow didn't I?

Basically I know the videogame community has reached some form of resolution with Roger Ebert's statement that videogames can never be art (very sensibly we are ignoring him), but as an art student and (I would consider myself) a hardcore gamer, I can't help but keep thinking about this. For my dissertation this semester I'm using Ebert's statement and articles to write a point-counterpoint argument in defence of games as an art-form (I know it's been done to death in the gaming community but shockingly completely overlooked at art school, hence why I want to bring it up).

What games would you guys recommend I play (all in the name of research hehe) to support or reject this claim? What do you think a game needs to accomplish to be 'art'? DO you think it'simportant that the gaming industry gains recognition as an art form or could you not care less? I will try to look into any games you suggest (budget allowing) and read any articles (on either side of the debate) you could reccommend.
I will try to suggest any titles I can think of.
For anyone who somehow missed out on the article that sparked off so much controversy, you can read it here:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

What course/major would this be for? Depending on what kind of art class you are in I'd suggest different games.

Visual Art:
Okami
Kamari Damacy

Both the above games use aesthetics to reflect both tone and play-style.

Film:
Half Life 2, Half Life Episode 1 and 2, possibly Portal as well.

The Half Life series basically invented first person cinematic storytelling. Even though the player is in control of the camera the whole time, the game is able to achieve things like close-ups, low-angle shots, mise-en-scene, etc. through creative level design.

Literature:
Bioshock
Fallout games

Both of the above games link their narratives directly to key game mechanics.

Let me know what "lens" you are going to be looking at video games through and I can go more in depth about any of the above games.

Conversely, if you want to look at games that don't borrow from other artistic mediums, I recommend Braid, The Path, and Passage.

 

[Squeaky]

Dead Space is a game deserving of being called art. It always has an unsettling mode about more so when its just you on screen. It provokes dread and fear the visual style is grounded in the "real world" but its what gives it the ability to make you feel. The story is brilliant with a twist you know is coming but you still want to know what happened.

Mirriors Edge is another candidate with its cool crisp lines and brillant use of colours to direct you is well implemented.

 

[Spark Ignition]

Interesting, I'll look into that book!
User-defined experience is something a lot of artists have been striving for in the past, and games make that so easy to achieve. In one very famous work, 'Line Describing A Cone', a projector beam is set up as a sculptural work in itself, the ideabeing that the public can situate themselves anywhere in the room, possibly breaking the projector beam and thus interacting with the rest of the audiece and directly affecting their perception of the piece. In gaming we obviously have any multiplayer game as an example of this, but I'm going to use L4D because the entire game has been designed around user interactions. It takes the classic situation of a small band of survivors fighting their way through hordes of zombies, but the twist is in allowing the players to fill those roles themselves. In harder playthroughs a real team dynamic has begun to form as the 4 real-life players begin to evolve a team dynamic, to depend on each other (or not, as the case may be) exactly as they would be in a real situation, leading to emotional response in the form of genuine gratitude when a player resuces or heals you, anger if they fail to or accidentally shoot you etc. Obviously this is a part in every multiplayer game ever made but moreso in Left 4 Dead as it is literally the core gameplay mechanic. It is a piece of social art, as it has been designed to provoke urgent interactions between the different players.

 

[the rye]

Okami works...

But mostly all of them.

Music is art.

Animation is art.

Games have music and animation. How is that not art?

music and animation are both mediums in which art can take form, the problem with video games is that the gameplay itself has not become art, even if it has a good story and it looks pretty, gameplay remains simply as entertainment.

 

[Imp Poster]

Scribblenauts and Drawn to life 1 & 2 makes me an artist.

Seriously though, in the end, I don't care whether or not video games are art. I just want it to be good, playability-wise. I want to buy it, kill it, beat it, shoot it and defeat it. Then turn it into Gamestop for another one. Games are meant for it to be played and thats it.

 

[boholikeu]

music and animation are both mediums in which art can take form, the problem with video games is that the gameplay itself has not become art, even if it has a good story and it looks pretty, gameplay remains simply as entertainment.

Braid
Portal
The Path
Bioshock
Passage
Fallout

All have gameplay mechanics that relate to or affect the overall themes of the work.

A few of the above games aren't even "entertaining" in the traditional sense either (think Requiem for a Dream, would you consider that movie entertaining?).

 

[PunkRex]

PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: This is not a rehash of the old debate on whether games are art. I'm rather asking what you find most effective in the games you consider to be art. My intention is to start an artistic discussion with games as the focus, rather than a general discussion about games as art.


Basically I know the videogame community has reached some form of resolution with Roger Ebert's statement that videogames can never be art (very sensibly we are ignoring him), but as an art student and (I would consider myself) a hardcore gamer, I can't help but keep thinking about this. For my dissertation this semester I'm using Ebert's statement and articles to write a point-counterpoint argument in defence of games as an art-form (I know it's been done to death in the gaming community but shockingly completely overlooked at art school, hence why I want to bring it up).

What games would you guys recommend I play (all in the name of research hehe) to support or reject this claim? What do you think a game needs to accomplish to be 'art'? DO you think it'simportant that the gaming industry gains recognition as an art form or could you not care less? I will try to look into any games you suggest (budget allowing) and read any articles (on either side of the debate) you could reccommend.
I will try to suggest any titles I can think of.
For anyone who somehow missed out on the article that sparked off so much controversy, you can read it here:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

Hey man, its all good.

What makes video games such an important media for art is of course their interactivity. You can experience the art first hand, you observe, listen and have a direact influence on it.

Its still a matter of preferance though. I like classical music but im not really into R&B. I like Pop art but hate 90% of Modern art. What sort of games do you enjoy or are you more of a general player?

Sorry for quoteing this big'ol post but I was asking you direactly so I thought it would be ok.

 

[Spark Ignition]

Ok firstly, the rye, thank you for making that distinction. I completely disagree, but it's important to understand that it's exactly the interactive element that I'm so in favour of as an artist, and that comes chiefly through gameplay. The gameplay is the number one factor in any game through which the character expeirences the world, and cannot help but enhance or damage their appreciation of the rest of the game depending on how effective it is for the tone of the game. In addition to this, it will also add it's own 'flavour' to everything else the game4 has to offer. To use Khaun's example of Dead Space, the gameplay massively enhances the effectiveness of the horror theme. Any game that casts you as the protagonist is immediately going to be a lot more involving and therefore scary than a similar horror movie, because you ARE that character, and it's impossible to ignore the present danger. In a horror movie many protagonists are either so badly characterised or unlikeable that you don't really care what happens to them, whereas in a game you HAVE to care about them, and feel their fear and danger yourself. Call of Ktulu takes it one step further and superimposes the effects of their fear onto your perception of the game. As interesting a stylistic choice as this may be, I feel it's unnecesssary as the fvery nature of a 'survival horror' game means you will be feeling that fear anyway. Ever been stranded in the RE1 mansion with one clip andf the knowledge that there are hunters everywhere? That's an emotional interaction (aka fear) that stems directly from the gameplay choices the dev team made (shortage of ammo and healing items, incredibly powerful enemies etc).

and to boholikeu: Good choices! I'm studying Fine Art (3rd year BA Hons) and am interested in interactive mediums as a whole (aka ALL GAMES!). I agree with what you're saying about the Half Life series, but surely Bioshock achives that jsut as well? And Fallout 3, for having so many unscripted but brilliant visual moments that the game subtly nudges you towards (leaving the vault, the entire Enclave section etc...). My interest is in creating an art form where every participant will have a different experience deriving from both random chance and the choices they make. To this end Fallout 3 is incredibly effective, as is any RPG. I adore Bioware (every game they've made excels in what you call the 'literature' category). I am yet to play any of the games you say have no connections to any of these forms, but will look into them and see what you mean by that.

Whew what a long post, my apologies!