So what videogames do you consider to be GOOD art?

[Flac00]

Either play the Halo games and listen to the music or buy the soundtracks. THAT is good evidence that they are art.

Don't exactly agree with you that halo is art because of its music. But I will say this, the music is very good. PS: great picture, Marathon FTW

 

[Flac00]

Messages, graphics, story, music ect. are not whats important to me. Which is probably why I don't like books, movies and other art. Games live and die by their rules. Go is thousands of years old and certainly not still played for its story or sculptures. Instead of asking if a game is art, lets focus on making a game good which is complex mechanics that foster competition. Supporting horrible "art" games will only take us away from what made games good in the first place.

Uh, what are these horrible "art" games you are talking about. Games can be artistic and good at the same time.

 

[buhee]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but Flower is really artistic. I suppose you could argue its not really a proper game really (i mean you just tilt the controller and pollenate flowers) but its amaazing.

 

[Ekonk]

Dear Esther.

 

[Mr.PlanetEater]

-Mother 3 in every shape and form besides sprites is art..Story, Music, characterization it's all there.
-Braid gorgeous scenery, great music to boot.
-Bioshock great Mock Deco decor, Sander Cohen.
-Any of the Fallouts; Use of awesome songs from yesteryear, great use of parody 50's "Everything Communist is evil" mentality, and 50's advertisements.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

Messages, graphics, story, music ect. are not whats important to me. Which is probably why I don't like books, movies and other art. Games live and die by their rules. Go is thousands of years old and certainly not still played for its story or sculptures. Instead of asking if a game is art, lets focus on making a game good which is complex mechanics that foster competition. Supporting horrible "art" games will only take us away from what made games good in the first place.

Uh, what are these horrible "art" games you are talking about. Games can be artistic and good at the same time.

Lots, but as a generalization I'll just say any indie game that lacks challenge or complexity. Also Heavy Rain, the Path, Dear Esther, the marrige.

Most of the ones that get funding aren't actually horrible (I'll admit) merely mediocre (think Ico, Bioshock, Okami.)

 

[Naota_391]

Grand Theft Auto 4 is what I'm talking about
GTA 3 back in 2001 set a president for shitty sandbox games
now every game in existence has some type of shitty sandbox element and GTA 4 is the most generic one of them.

GTA 3 is a historical part of gaming. They hit that ground first, so of course it wasn't perfect. It led the way for 3-D sandbox games, and it was alright for what it was. Not exceptional in anyway except for the whole OHMYGOSHYOU'RERUNNINGTHROUGHSTREETSANDSHITANDYOUCANDOWHATEVERYOUWANT, but it was alright.

But that's neither here nor there. Moving on.

How is GTA IV "generic" at ALL? What other games do what it does? Saints Row has you shoot poop at buildings, Red Faction destroys buildings, Mafia 2 pretends there's an open world around but it's not really there for you to do anything in , and Crackdown just went old GTA but now you have superpowers. With the exception of Red Faction, all of those games strike me as far more generic than GTA IV was.

stop projecting

Cute, but no. I said "you" as in "Mikeyfell, I am saying your intelligence levels are strikingly low at this exact moment in time".

are you asking me to name a fucking sandbox game? Do you even know that Grand Theft Auto Clone is it's own Genre? have you never heard of Saint's Row.

No, I asked you this.

Name me ONE game with a city as big and detailed as the one in GTA IV. Just name to me ONE.

Name me one game that has a city as big or as detailed as the one in GTA IV. I did not say name a sandbox game, I asked you to name a game that had a city as impressive as this one.

um...Stalker much? what do you mean "actually do" they just walk around if circles all day long. How about Jak 2 you can follow around guards and listen to them talk about how comfortable their new armor is. or Fallout 3 and Oblivion. there are missions based around it.
But I'm not the best Judge I don't get off by following random strangers around all day.

You obviously missed the part where this entire conversation is based off of the question: what games do you consider to be GOOD art? You obviously missed the part where I said my point was that:

Looking at games as art, I think something we have to acknowledge as their greatest strength is the depth of immersion that's possible here... With this in mind, I think you should look at games that try to get the player immersed into their worlds. Games that try to really sink their teeth into you. Whether they succeed or fail, it doesn't entirely matter. Not all Art is perfect, you know.

I think that the game accomplished a lot ARTISTICALLY. I think that seeing pedestrians actually having a life creates ATMOSPHERE. I think that the level of detail and the size of the city makes it feel more BELIEVABLE. What do ARTISTIC endeavors, ATMOSPHERE, and BELIEVABILITY have in common? They help to create immersion. As in, they help to bring the player into their world. Like a film or book, but in its own unique way. My point was not that all of the games I listed were perfect, just that they accomplished or proved something important.

You know what? I was going to keep going, but I feel like that last part hit on the issue that was here int he first place, so I'll end it with that. I think we've gotten way off course what this thread, and what my post, was even about to begin with. If you don't like the game, fine, but I know I'm not the only one who A.) enjoys that game and B.) understands what small and huge things it accomplished for gaming.

 

[Naota_391]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but Flower is really artistic. I suppose you could argue its not really a proper game really (i mean you just tilt the controller and pollenate flowers) but its amaazing.

Right. So. Confession. Flower made me cry.

 

[Mikeyfell]

snip in order to save your brain from trying to fathom the unbelievable amount of concentrated stupid in this post.

well I suppose any game that can keep someone playing it despite being monstrously terrible would have to be art

How is GTA IV "generic" at ALL? What other games do what it does? Saints Row has you shoot poop at buildings, Red Faction destroys buildings, Mafia 2 pretends there's an open world around but it's not really there for you to do anything in , and Crackdown just went old GTA but now you have superpowers. With the exception of Red Faction, all of those games strike me as far more generic than GTA IV was.

I do kind of want to harp on this snippet of dumb
Saint's Row is GTA4 with a poop gun
Red Faction is GTA4 with destroyable buildings
Mafia 2 is GTA4 in the 50's with out the sand box
Crackdown is GTA4 with super powers

all of those games are more original than GTA4
Which is GTA3 with escort missions....I mean more escort missions....a lot more escort missions. and checking your email. and physics that make the game unplayable.

Name me ONE game with a city as big and detailed as the one in GTA IV. Just name to me ONE.

Assassin's Creed
Saint's Row
Crackdown
Fallout 3
The Saboteur
Oblivion
Prototype
Infamous
Red Dead Redemption (Grand Theft Horse 4) but still didn't want to discount it
Just Cause 2
Thief 2 (not as big but certainly more interesting)
sorry was that more than ONE?
I can't tell I'm kinda stupid.

 

[Naota_391]

snip in order to save your brain from trying to fathom the unbelievable amount of concentrated stupid in this post.

well I suppose any game that can keep someone playing it despite being monstrously terrible would have to be art

How is GTA IV "generic" at ALL? What other games do what it does? Saints Row has you shoot poop at buildings, Red Faction destroys buildings, Mafia 2 pretends there's an open world around but it's not really there for you to do anything in , and Crackdown just went old GTA but now you have superpowers. With the exception of Red Faction, all of those games strike me as far more generic than GTA IV was.

I do kind of want to harp on this snippet of dumb
Saint's Row is GTA4 with a poop gun
Red Faction is GTA4 with destroyable buildings
Mafia 2 is GTA4 in the 50's with out the sand box
Crackdown is GTA4 with super powers

all of those games are more original than GTA4
Which is GTA3 with escort missions....I mean more escort missions....a lot more escort missions. and checking your email. and physics that make the game unplayable.

Name me ONE game with a city as big and detailed as the one in GTA IV. Just name to me ONE.

Assassin's Creed
Saint's Row
Crackdown
Fallout 3
The Saboteur
Oblivion
Prototype
Infamous
Red Dead Redemption (Grand Theft Horse 4) but still didn't want to discount it
Just Cause 2
Thief 2 (not as big but certainly more interesting)
sorry was that more than ONE?
I can't tell I'm kinda stupid.

I'll give you Assassin's Creed, but I disagree on the others. AC had a really devoted team to put together the cities in their games, but I don't think the cities in the rest of those games were as big or felt as alive as Liberty City in GTA IV.

I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. I'm putting forth elements of the game that I think have pushed the envelope on what games have done before, and I don't think those GTA clones have really presented anything though-provoking or intellectually interesting.

GTA IV may not be "fun", but I personally think it's pretty damn engaging for a good amount of time (falls apart about half way through, no idea why it suddenly grins to a halt and turns into GTA III upgraded to today's standards, but it's probably because they got too caught up in making the game long).

I think you're totally off on what GTA IV did great, especially since you seem to think it accomplished absolutely nothing, but I respect your right to disagree. Over there... That way.

 

[CrustyOatmeal]

my art teacher once told me that art is what society calls art. it is a culmination of the imagination in such a way as to spark the imagination in another, whether that be through though or emotion

 

[yousodumb]

I would like to point out one of my favorite games that most everyone forgets: The Neverhood. Completely rendered in good old fashioned clay, This game has you start off with a complete Blank slate and lets you build the character from his actions and reactions to events.

With a Rich (and long!) backstory, memorable characters, and A mystery of the self, This is one of the many games with a unique quirky charm that I love.

 

[automatron]

Braid was a game I thought quite interesting and actually made me think, so I pick that.
It had a great artistic style too

 

[Imbechile]

PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: This is not a rehash of the old debate on whether games are art. I'm rather asking what you find most effective in the games you consider to be art. My intention is to start an artistic discussion with games as the focus, rather than a general discussion about games as art.


Basically I know the videogame community has reached some form of resolution with Roger Ebert's statement that videogames can never be art (very sensibly we are ignoring him), but as an art student and (I would consider myself) a hardcore gamer, I can't help but keep thinking about this. For my dissertation this semester I'm using Ebert's statement and articles to write a point-counterpoint argument in defence of games as an art-form (I know it's been done to death in the gaming community but shockingly completely overlooked at art school, hence why I want to bring it up).

What games would you guys recommend I play (all in the name of research hehe) to support or reject this claim? What do you think a game needs to accomplish to be 'art'? DO you think it'simportant that the gaming industry gains recognition as an art form or could you not care less? I will try to look into any games you suggest (budget allowing) and read any articles (on either side of the debate) you could reccommend.
I will try to suggest any titles I can think of.
For anyone who somehow missed out on the article that sparked off so much controversy, you can read it here:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

Planescape Torment. Not only does it have an unique style but also a shitload of well written text and an interesting story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_torment

 

[Flac00]

Either play the Halo games and listen to the music or buy the soundtracks. THAT is good evidence that they are art.

Don't exactly agree with you that halo is art because of its music. But I will say this, the music is very good. PS: great picture, Marathon FTW

It's just one part of the art sandwich that makes up a game that is good art. Also, thanks. The dot, if you can tell, is the Halo Logo.

Hmm, what is the bigger symbol? It looks familiar but I cant put my finger on it. Im sure it has something to do with Marathon or Halo.

 

[Flac00]

Messages, graphics, story, music ect. are not whats important to me. Which is probably why I don't like books, movies and other art. Games live and die by their rules. Go is thousands of years old and certainly not still played for its story or sculptures. Instead of asking if a game is art, lets focus on making a game good which is complex mechanics that foster competition. Supporting horrible "art" games will only take us away from what made games good in the first place.

Uh, what are these horrible "art" games you are talking about. Games can be artistic and good at the same time.

Lots, but as a generalization I'll just say any indie game that lacks challenge or complexity. Also Heavy Rain, the Path, Dear Esther, the marrige.

Most of the ones that get funding aren't actually horrible (I'll admit) merely mediocre (think Ico, Bioshock, Okami.)

?? I don't think that Bioshock is mediocre. It is a different style of gameplay than the normal FPS. Think more along the lines of System Shock 2 style gameplay. Ps, i thought Dear Esther was fun, its the storyline that pushes it. Not all games need to be action, just most.
Point taken though

 

[Hap2]

Skies of Arcadia Legends for the older stuff, it just works and flows beautifully, such an engrossing game, and still the only game I have ever personally deemed worthy of a full 10 score.

Recently? Mass Effect 2 is really beautiful as well (I don't necessarily mean visually either).