So what's your take on this "Forest Boy of Germany" crap?

[Westaway]

"Let's have sex"
"Alright!"

~20 minutes later~

"The condom broke"
"Well, shit"
"You're probably pregnant, you should get an abortion"
"No. I'm keeping it and yoi're going to have to pay for it for the rest of your life"
"I don't want you to keep it"
"Doesn't matter, I made the choice even though it was both our mistake."

That doesn't sound fair at all.

 

[Vegosiux]

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough, suggesting that she isn't going to pay for it the rest of her life as well, whether she has an abortion or not. Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

Yeah, if only people had the opportunity to sit down, talk things through, and find a compromise without actively antagonizing each other.

 

[McMullen]

She didn't 'opt' to get pregnant. She didn't click "Allow" on the sperm that he put inside her.

What.

...

Seriously, what.

Yes, she did. If she didn't, she was raped. If you have sex without contraceptives, you're accepting the possibility that you're going to get pregnant.

She clicked "Allow" on him putting the sperm inside her.


Just... what.

I can't believe you said that.

 

[McMullen]

She didn't 'opt' to get pregnant. She didn't click "Allow" on the sperm that he put inside her.

What.

...

Seriously, what.

Yes, she did. If she didn't, she was raped. If you have sex without contraceptives, you're accepting the possibility that you're going to get pregnant.

She clicked "Allow" on him putting the sperm inside her.


Just... what.

I can't believe you said that.

You can't believe that I suggested that she didn't actively choose to become pregnant? That ignoring the risks isn't the same thing as desiring a negative outcome?

There's a certain threshold of recklessness for all sorts of stupid actions where it is perfectly reasonable to say to the person "Well, what the hell did you think would happen?" or "You asked for it."

If you have sex without contraceptives, you're taking a risk of getting pregnant, and if you don't consider that carefully beforehand, then you really have no one to blame but yourself.

If you have sex without contraceptives, you are in fact allowing sperm to be put inside you, and if the timing and certain other factors are right, they'll do what sperm do. Simple as that.

 

[Screamarie]

I don't really care about the whole Forest Boy. He's an idiot and an asshole who, if what RJ 17 says is true, just didn't want to take responsibility for his life. There are people like that everyday.

But I got interested in the whole "who's responsible" crap for the baby and let me put it this way.

If he didn't want a baby...he shouldn't have had sex.

Every time two people have sex, whether they use contraceptives or not, they're risking having a baby. If you're not ready to have a baby don't have sex.

If you go ahead and risk it, knowing you don't want to have a child, then BOTH people are at fault and BOTH people have to take care of the kid.

They were both there, they were both taking the risk.

And I mean this for both the man and the woman. EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU HAVE SEX (with a person who is fertile and of the opposite gender) YOU ARE RISKING HAVING A CHILD! If the woman decided to risk getting pregnant then it's her responsibility to take care of the child. If the man decided to risk getting the girl pregnant then it's his responsibility to take care of the child.

If you risk it, you deal with the consequences. Abortion shouldn't be an "oops, I fucked up" solution to not being able to keep your jeans on.

 

[hino77]

I don't really care about the whole Forest Boy. He's an idiot and an asshole who, if what RJ 17 says is true, just didn't want to take responsibility for his life. There are people like that everyday.

But I got interested in the whole "who's responsible" crap for the baby and let me put it this way.

If he didn't want a baby...he shouldn't have had sex.

Every time two people have sex, whether they use contraceptives or not, they're risking having a baby. If you're not ready to have a baby don't have sex.

If you go ahead and risk it, knowing you don't want to have a child, then BOTH people are at fault and BOTH people have to take care of the kid.

They were both there, they were both taking the risk.

And I mean this for both the man and the woman. EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU HAVE SEX (with a person who is fertile and of the opposite gender) YOU ARE RISKING HAVING A CHILD! If the woman decided to risk getting pregnant then it's her responsibility to take care of the child. If the man decided to risk getting the girl pregnant then it's his responsibility to take care of the child.

If you risk it, you deal with the consequences. Abortion shouldn't be an "oops, I fucked up" solution to not being able to keep your jeans on.

Pretty much this. Seriously, its as much his fault as it is hers. They both wanted to have sex, so now they pay the price. Im not against abortion, but that should not be a "get out of responsibility free" card for stupid people.

 

[Screamarie]

Yes, contraceptives can fail. Even the ones you said she should take full blame for not having used them. Regardless of where your personal opinion falls on the humanity of a fetus, abortion isn't exactly a consequence-free 'whoops, my bad!' magic bullet either.

Be that as it may, not choosing to do it, is choosing to have a baby, and since only one person responsible gets a say in yes or no to that, the other gets to walk away if she says no and he said yes.

Punishing people for things they had no influence over is unethical.

Especially if you're sitting in a comfortable room in a suburb of a privileged family, judging over someone you don't know, but who you do know to have gone through hell as he grew up, in a way you can not ever understand by lack of own experience.

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough, suggesting that she isn't going to pay for it the rest of her life as well, whether she has an abortion or not. Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

You managed to type 3 sentences that don't even respond to Westaway's point...

Pretty much this. Seriously, its as much his fault as it is hers. They both wanted to have sex, so now they pay the price. Im not against abortion, but that should not be a "get out of responsibility free" card for stupid people.

What about the fact, which has been said at least five times now so it's only fair that you manage to ignore it, that he doesn't get a say in if they terminate the pregnancy or not?

He HAD a say when he stuck his penis into the woman's vagina. He said "this could risk me having a baby, which could be really stupid, but I don't care, I want to have sex." Or he just blindly and stupidly put his dick into a woman without thinking about the consequences. Whether contraception was used or not, he still took the risk. The girl and he both took the risk, they must live with the consequences.

It's simple, don't want a baby, don't have sex. Want to have sex? Then you have to face the fact that you ALWAYS have the potential of making a baby and therefore must be willing to deal with the child that you knowingly created.

Unless she tied him down, forced him erect, and made him impregnate her, he had every chance in the world to say "NO I don't want to have a baby" but he didn't take it.

 

[Bertylicious]

As for abortion, well I'd rather not get into a debate with a misogynist like you over it. But the baby is as much his fault as it is hers.

Nice ad hominem. Blah has a point, if she wants the baby and he doesn't, then he can walk away and she can raise it. In return he has no right to see the child or later claim custody.

Thanks, I thought it was a particularly appropriate hominem to ad to the discussion. And he may not have to stick around, but financial support is another matter entirely. Maybe European law is a little more accepting of deadbeat dads, I'm just going on my knowledge of how it works over here in America.

I don't quite see how Blah not believing the dad should pay child support makes him a mysoginist per se. Are you referring to some other statement Blah made?

"Forest Boy" sounds like he'd be an attrocious father and it doesn't sound like he can care for himself financially let alone another person so it's probably for the best that he stays out of the child's life.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I like how one back-hand comment that he also got his girlfriend pregnant in addition to a number of OTHER things he'd done has sparked this huge debate. OT: Yeah, he sounds like an idiot but he's got a pretty detailed sob-story, I really don't feel it's that newsworthy? Guy had a bad living arrangement, he couldn't cope with responsibility he didn't feel ready for (twice over, since he went to work) so he ran. Can't say I respect him, but I can see what drove him to it.

As for abortion, well I'd rather not get into a debate with a misogynist like you over it. But the baby is as much his fault as it is hers.

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough,[SNIP] Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

See, I WANT to stay out of this, but in a few posts you've gone from accusing someone of being a Misogynist (when it appears all he's saying is the father should have a say in whether or not they keep the baby) to complaining about a Strawman.

Yes, this conception has changed both of their lives, but if it were the other way round where she wanted to Terminate and he wanted to keep it would you still be making these same arguments that she now HAD to be a mother? If he's not ready to be a father, but she is ready to be a mother, they shouldn't be together. A child shouldn't be brought up in an unstable environment where the parent's resent each other. Otherwise, they end up running off into the woods and claiming they lived there. Or to put it another way, a guy with serious father issues doesn't want to be a father.

I agree it sucks for the girl, she never asked to get pregnant (we assume?), but given his history would perhaps a shred of empathy for the idiot father go amiss?

And now we move onto discussing Tarzan in Berlin

 

[Phasmal]

If he's not ready to be a father, but she is ready to be a mother, they shouldn't be together. A child shouldn't be brought up in an unstable environment where the parent's resent each other. Otherwise, they end up running off into the woods and claiming they lived there. Or to put it another way, a guy with serious father issues doesn't want to be a father.

I agree it sucks for the girl, she never asked to get pregnant (we assume?), but given his history would perhaps a shred of empathy for the idiot father go amiss?

And now we move onto discussing Tarzan in Berlin

I don't think anybody is arguing that they should be together. Just that he should be responsible for the kid he helped create. She didn't sperm-jack him.

I think what Blah is trying to say is that there should be some sort of opt-out of fatherhood if the dude wanted her to get an abortion. Honestly, I'm not completely against this idea, but I don't see it as something that could actually be practically implemented.
Sadly, he has to be responsible. She didn't sperm-jack him, he chose to have sex. It is sad that he didn't get a say in whether or not she terminated the pregnancy but by that point it was her body and so her decision. I know some people will hate me for that but until they invent some sort of mechanical man-womb I dont see any other way around it.

 

[Bertylicious]

Yes, contraceptives can fail. Even the ones you said she should take full blame for not having used them. Regardless of where your personal opinion falls on the humanity of a fetus, abortion isn't exactly a consequence-free 'whoops, my bad!' magic bullet either.

Be that as it may, not choosing to do it, is choosing to have a baby, and since only one person responsible gets a say in yes or no to that, the other gets to walk away if she says no and he said yes.

Punishing people for things they had no influence over is unethical.

Especially if you're sitting in a comfortable room in a suburb of a privileged family, judging over someone you don't know, but who you do know to have gone through hell as he grew up, in a way you can not ever understand by lack of own experience.

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough, suggesting that she isn't going to pay for it the rest of her life as well, whether she has an abortion or not. Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

You managed to type 3 sentences that don't even respond to Westaway's point...

Pretty much this. Seriously, its as much his fault as it is hers. They both wanted to have sex, so now they pay the price. Im not against abortion, but that should not be a "get out of responsibility free" card for stupid people.

What about the fact, which has been said at least five times now so it's only fair that you manage to ignore it, that he doesn't get a say in if they terminate the pregnancy or not?

He HAD a say when he stuck his penis into the woman's vagina. He said "this could risk me having a baby, which could be really stupid, but I don't care, I want to have sex." Or he just blindly and stupidly put his dick into a woman without thinking about the consequences. Whether contraception was used or not, he still took the risk. The girl and he both took the risk, they must live with the consequences.

It's simple, don't want a baby, don't have sex. Want to have sex? Then you have to face the fact that you ALWAYS have the potential of making a baby and therefore must be willing to deal with the child that you knowingly created.

Unless she tied him down, forced him erect, and made him impregnate her, he had every chance in the world to say "NO I don't want to have a baby" but he didn't take it.

It's an attractive position because it is simple, but it is problematic in a real world context as that is a door that swings both ways. If you had a parent whom it would not be good to have around the child then society would be obligated to keep that person on the scene if you were to embrace that logic.

If pushed I'm sure that "Forest Boy" would claim that he had stated that he didn't want children, that the mother agreed and then reneged at a later date. It is probably not true, but how would you know? It'd be one person's word against another. You could claim that the act of penetration comprises a legal contract, but what then if the mother aborts the child without the father's consent? How would we determine damages?

At the end of the day; successful parenting comes down to parents who want to be involved in the child's life. Forcing people to be involved against their wishes will cause more problems for that child than it would solve.

 

[hino77]

Yes, contraceptives can fail. Even the ones you said she should take full blame for not having used them. Regardless of where your personal opinion falls on the humanity of a fetus, abortion isn't exactly a consequence-free 'whoops, my bad!' magic bullet either.

Be that as it may, not choosing to do it, is choosing to have a baby, and since only one person responsible gets a say in yes or no to that, the other gets to walk away if she says no and he said yes.

Punishing people for things they had no influence over is unethical.

Especially if you're sitting in a comfortable room in a suburb of a privileged family, judging over someone you don't know, but who you do know to have gone through hell as he grew up, in a way you can not ever understand by lack of own experience.

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough, suggesting that she isn't going to pay for it the rest of her life as well, whether she has an abortion or not. Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

You managed to type 3 sentences that don't even respond to Westaway's point...

Pretty much this. Seriously, its as much his fault as it is hers. They both wanted to have sex, so now they pay the price. Im not against abortion, but that should not be a "get out of responsibility free" card for stupid people.

What about the fact, which has been said at least five times now so it's only fair that you manage to ignore it, that he doesn't get a say in if they terminate the pregnancy or not?

Oh yeah,right, becouse he was forced to have sex.Or maybe he is a complete and utter moron, and he does not know were do baby`s come from.If he is so stupid, then he does not get any sympathy from me. There were two people doing the deed there, and there both responsible for the outcome,end of story.
And as to what Bertylicious was saying, im not arguing that he should start raising the kid, but he has to take some responsibility for his actions. Thats how it works, you do something, you face the consequences of you`re actions, pure and simple.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

If he's not ready to be a father, but she is ready to be a mother, they shouldn't be together. A child shouldn't be brought up in an unstable environment where the parent's resent each other. Otherwise, they end up running off into the woods and claiming they lived there. Or to put it another way, a guy with serious father issues doesn't want to be a father.

I agree it sucks for the girl, she never asked to get pregnant (we assume?), but given his history would perhaps a shred of empathy for the idiot father go amiss?

And now we move onto discussing Tarzan in Berlin

I don't think anybody is arguing that they should be together. Just that he should be responsible for the kid he helped create. She didn't sperm-jack him.

I think what Blah is trying to say is that there should be some sort of opt-out of fatherhood if the dude wanted her to get an abortion. Honestly, I'm not completely against this idea, but I don't see it as something that could actually be practically implemented.
Sadly, he has to be responsible. She didn't sperm-jack him, he chose to have sex. It is sad that he didn't get a say in whether or not she terminated the pregnancy but by that point it was her body and so her decision. I know some people will hate me for that but until they invent some sort of mechanical man-womb I dont see any other way around it.

See, I can AGREE with this, it's a much better made point than the poster throwing around misogyny as a 'get out of argument free' card. It's true that once she gets pregnant the next 9 months are all on her so it really is her decision, I still think the guy should have a say but it does mean I lean towards the girl gets the final say in all circumstances.

I admit it's stretching my empathy since I know a girl who's boyfriend did this to her and now 3 years on he decides he wants more custody of the daughter, I just don't like thought of this guy doing that.

 

[WaysideMaze]

He HAD a say when he stuck his penis into the woman's vagina. He said "this could risk me having a baby, which could be really stupid, but I don't care, I want to have sex."

That's not relevant because A you don't know if they used contraception or not

Yes it is relevant. The act of having sex, even taking every contraception and precaution imaginable, carries with it the risk of having children. If you aren't prepared to accept this risk, no matter how small, then frankly you should be abstaining.

and B having an unwanted child also involves the separate choice of not terminating the pregnancy, in which he gets no say.

Like I just said, sex always carries with it the risk of children. If you aren't willing to take responsibility for your actions, don't have sex. Abortion is not a 'final contraceptive measure,' nor should it be viewed as such.

Out of interest, can you tell me how a man can have any say?

Ignoring the emotional side of things and breaking it down to numbers (callous I'll admit, but stick with me), if they both disagree on what to do, then that's a 50/50 split, with no majority vote. Thus, surely by default, the woman should get to decide by virtue of it being her body.

Also your claim is based on the premise that you are entitled to control other people's sex lives.

Can you elaborate on this point? I've read his post several times and really can't see where you are getting this from.

I'm sure the pastor in church told you that's the way to go, but just accept that he was wrong you don't get to have an opinion on that subject.

Where did he mention religion in his post? I didn't see it, so why bring it up?

Appealing to redicule does not strengthen your own argument.

Also you can't comprehend the extent of the things that happen there, so neither can you judge them.

Comprehend the extent of what? They had sex, she's pregnant, he doesn't want to take responsibility.
Having a rough childhood does not exempt you from responsibility.

Heck, I've been around the block a few times and I can't comprehend it fully either,

What can't you comprehend, sex? Then why the hell are you having it? If I've misread that and you mean something else, please, let me know.

so you'll never catch me judging people's sex lives on moralistic grounds.

If you get some girl pregnant, and flee from your responsibility as a father, then we as a society usually have to foot the bill in the form of tax credits/child support money etc.

If your reckless sex life costs us, then I think we have every right to judge.

And C, strange things happens at such low points in society. Have you read the previous few posts I made, the one about my experiences with child protection services? My girlfriend at the time who went through that hell started talking of children (us being aged 16 and 18) suddenly. Later I when I used the bathroom the strips of the birth control pill were not emptying by each day any longer. When I confronted her it turned out she'd stopped taking them without asking me and desperately explained how nice it would have if we had a child and could be together forever.

Well, she lost everything and everyone outside of me, so I can see where it's coming from, but I was furious. When she was initially reluctant about the morning after pill and a few pregnancy tests I pretty much explained that it would be either that and playing it honest from now, or me taking off never to be heard from again. I can't force her to terminate the pregnancy, that's not my call, so that's the choice I get in return. Well, in the end she did it, and it turned out she wasn't pregnant from earlier times and the morning after pill did its work for the most recent one, but that situation could've spun out of control rapidly. And from what I can deduce about the case, Van Helsum went through a lot more shit than I saw back then.

Taking off is not an option. Abandoning a family is not an option.

Your options are this:

1 - Have sex, risk pregnancy, accept responsibility as a father.

2 - Don't have sex.

Your entire argument seems to rest on the idea that you have to have sex. As if there is no alternative.

One last time, if you do not want to be a father, abstain from sexual intercourse.

Oh yeah,right, becouse he was forced to have sex.Or maybe he is a complete and utter moron, and he does not know were do baby`s come from.If he is so stupid, then he does not get any sympathy from me. There were two people doing the deed there, and there both responsible for the outcome,end of story.

I've already refuted this several times over. Please read my earlier posts.

You really haven't.