So why did someone expressing their freedom of speech become unpopular?

[Grand_Pamplemousse]

To be honest you seem like a really violent prick.

Someone who ostensibly supports the BNP leader and National Front former member is calling someone a violent prick?

Ohhh the ironing.

The only form of LEGAL protest you should/can show? Is not putting a little x by his name on voting day.

He must have some sort of policy that people are interested in. His votes have risen since last voting day, so whatever people are interested in mainstream political parties should try to offer as maybe they could win a few votes. You at least take these people's opinions into consideration when they make up a reasonably large number of people (for a non-mainstream party at least).

Are you seriously saying people with different opinions (okay, weird and unpopular ones) should be attacked? Go live in some police state, I think their policies on speech would be to your liking.

Nope. No politician should be able to stand on a racist agenda. That is the antithesis of a democracy. Among other things, there is no issue to answer. "Darkies" coming too our country is not a problem. There is no danger of the "Islamification" of Britain. And these claims about the white person being oppressed are nothing more than pure rhinocerous shit.

Nobody should be allowed to start trouble between ethnic groups, then present himself as the solution to that trouble. The man is pure evil.

The ironing... is that some lazy attempt at a joke or are you dyslexic?

Also, I am not a BNP member. I NEVER condone violence. I believe in the diversification of England. We are a good example of a country with many different creeds and colours.

I do believe in the his right to participate in the Goverment and his right to form political parties. How many times tomato?

I called him a violent prick because his solutions for everything seemd to boil down into 'BASH HIM UP YEH!' which frankly seems a little uncouth and stupid. A politician should be allowed to stand on whatever agenda he likes. It is your right to say that he is stupid and that you'll never vote for him. Not to close him down.

I honestly think most of you people who believe in the same sort of mantra as tomato should just go and live in a country where different beliefs are persecuted. Go try Zimbabwe I hear they just LOVE ethnic/political diversity.

 

[Crimson Cade]

Certainly, having someone truly extreme makes for a nice buffer for parties who are a lighter shade of blue. Kinda like a crafty kid first asking if he can get a new bike, THEN asks if he can have a far less expensive toy.

But such is the nature of democracy. The whole reason the founding fathers of the US went for a republic of elected representatives instead of a true democracy (where you have a vote on freaking EVERYTHING) was that they feared the easily persuaded nature of the common man.

Politicians on all sides of the spectrum PLAY on this, in order to gain support for their agendas. And the further away from a moderate center you get, the more devious and underhanded their methods need to be.

Yes, the BNP is playing on fear and racial tension. With the mass immigration of the latter half of the last century, the face of many countries changed. People and governments are not equipped to handle such a radical change without having some issues rise up, and when these issues are not handled in a manner that appeases all sides (which in and of itself is almost impossible), there will be a lot of discontents who feel that these issues were forced upon them, and want someone on which to pin the blame.

As a Norwegian, I would lie if I said I am not upset with the fact that people are being cautioned by the police to not traverse certain places of the capital outside daylight hours, since the ethnic gangs operate on a level of violence and disregard of laws that we had never seen with Norwegian gangs. Rapes, thefts and violence committed by these gangs are common fare in the legitimate media (I don't read tabloids, so I can't speak for them), and in interviews these gang-members LAUGH at the leniency of the Norwegian penal code. Is it strange that people get pissed?

It has gotten so far that law-abiding immigrants have started flocking to the Progress party, the most right-wing (and thus the ones that are labeled horrible racists) of the parties that have an actual chance on the ballot, to have these violent criminals deported in order to reduce racial tensions. Norway is (by UK and US standards) ridiculously left of center however, and here even Progress, who have strong family-, health- and elder-care politics and whatnot, are considered extreme right-wing for wanting stricter guidelines to immigration and asylum. Which make me want to chuckle when it is this popular with immigrants.

Anyway, I am getting off track. The point is, the more discontents you have (be it through perceived or real reasons), the more votes extreme parties will get. Silencing the BNP is perhaps the dumbest thing you can do. Their popularity and their cause is just gonna skyrocket once you make political martyrs out of them. Look at Obama vs Fox news.

What can we do then? Let them jump around their monkey cage until the fickle public tire of their escapades and change the channel, then let the entire racist party scream and tear out their hair, and nurse their ulcers in obscurity. If a more moderate right-wing party is elected, is it because the people want it. Is this a good thing? *shrug*

"People are idiots!" - House

 

[titanium turtle]

why the fuck bother to riot- he is not going to get into power- if he does he will be thrown out

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Even more irony.

Also, I am not a BNP member. I NEVER condone violence. I believe in the diversification of England. We are a good example of a country with many different creeds and colours.

Some of the best examples in this country are anti-BNP activists, the people you are complaining about.

I do believe in the his right to participate in the Goverment and his right to form political parties. How many times tomato?

He doesn't just do that. The BNP waging a campaign of intimidation by organizing racist rallys at Islamic places in the UK. What he is doing is basically terrorism, threatening violence on others to get his way. And yes, terrorist groups should be outlawed.

I called him a violent prick because his solutions for everything seemd to boil down into 'BASH HIM UP YEH!' which frankly seems a little uncouth and stupid. A politician should be allowed to stand on whatever agenda he likes. It is your right to say that he is stupid and that you'll never vote for him. Not to close him down.

Hitler stood on an agenda of "invade Europe and kill everyone". Should that have been allowed?

I honestly think most of you people who believe in the same sort of mantra as tomato should just go and live in a country where different beliefs are persecuted. Go try Zimbabwe I hear they just LOVE ethnic/political diversity.

Right. We want tolerance, a friendly and hospitable country for all creeds and cultures, and to welcome people as friends, and enable them to settle in a place free from prejudice and bigotry. And you say we shoud move to Zimbabwee.

What planet are you currently orbiting?

 

[Plank of Wood]

Free speech works both ways.


He's allowed to say whatever racist or ignorant bullcrap he wants, on condition that Private Eye and HIGNFY can then the following week take the piss out of it and people can use their freedom of speech against him.

 

[Galletea]

Because people are generally hypocrites. Free speech is a lie anyways, it has always been free speech upto the point at which the government says you've gone too far, and then you're inciting hatred.
The BBC made a big deal of it, more so than any other politician appearance, and then drew parallels with the appearance of LePen on the french equivalent of the show, and the following surge in his popularity.
The truth of the matter is that the BBC caused the controversy to get more viewers, and it worked. More than that, it also showed what a penis Nick Griffin is.

 

[Crimson Cade]

Right. We want tolerance, a friendly and hospitable country for all creeds and cultures, and to welcome people as friends, and enable them to settle in a place free from prejudice and bigotry.

...if they assimilate, learn the language and adhere to the laws. Or is that prejudiced?

Also consider the fact that there is a limited number of resources, and that not everyone are as keen on giving up a larger slice of the pie. And then there are those who just aren't comfortable with foreigners, like the elderly I mentioned earlier. But you don't have to consider those lesser beings, do you? After all, they are just racists.

The BNP goes too far. But not seeing the problems with mixing tons of cultures and colors doesn't mean that the problems aren't there. Just that you choose to ignore them.

Your vision can't be had. Diversity is a cause for conflict. Not for cohesion.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Right. We want tolerance, a friendly and hospitable country for all creeds and cultures, and to welcome people as friends, and enable them to settle in a place free from prejudice and bigotry.

...if they assimilate, learn the language and adhere to the laws. Or is that prejudiced?

They are. So this is a complete non-issue.

Also consider the fact that there is a limited number of resources, and that not everyone are as keen on giving up a larger slice of the pie. And there are those who just aren't comfortable with foreigners, like the elderly I mentioned earlier. But you don't have to consider those lesser beings, do you? After all, they are just racists.

Limited number of resources? So lets kick out a section of the population which is starting businesses, working flat out in our hospitals, paying taxes, and buying British goods with the money they are making.

Great plan.

 

[Crimson Cade]

Right. We want tolerance, a friendly and hospitable country for all creeds and cultures, and to welcome people as friends, and enable them to settle in a place free from prejudice and bigotry.

...if they assimilate, learn the language and adhere to the laws. Or is that prejudiced?

They are. So this is a complete non-issue.

In Britain, maybe. Here in Norway, less than 30% care to pass the required minimum of language classes. And without a shared language, there can be no real assimilation.

Also consider the fact that there is a limited number of resources, and that not everyone are as keen on giving up a larger slice of the pie. And there are those who just aren't comfortable with foreigners, like the elderly I mentioned earlier. But you don't have to consider those lesser beings, do you? After all, they are just racists.

Limited number of resources? So lets kick out a section of the population which is starting businesses, working flat out in our hospitals, paying taxes, and buying British goods with the money they are making.

Great plan.

Oh. Again, I am not British. So you don't have a rise in crime due to unemployment, trouble starting families because there aren't enough well-paying jobs, municipalities that are millions in the red, overflowing welfare-houses and asylums, ridiculous hospital lines or a terribly overpriced housing marked? Must be nice. Maybe I should move to Britain.

And before you get back on your moral high-horse; I never attributed any of these (except the obvious one: Overflowing asylums) to immigrants specifically. Just limited resources. Feel free to assume things though. You are very good at it.

 

[Grand_Pamplemousse]

Even more irony.

Also, I am not a BNP member. I NEVER condone violence. I believe in the diversification of England. We are a good example of a country with many different creeds and colours.

Some of the best examples in this country are anti-BNP activists, the people you are complaining about.

I do believe in the his right to participate in the Goverment and his right to form political parties. How many times tomato?

He doesn't just do that. The BNP waging a campaign of intimidation by organizing racist rallys at Islamic places in the UK. What he is doing is basically terrorism, threatening violence on others to get his way. And yes, terrorist groups should be outlawed.

I called him a violent prick because his solutions for everything seemd to boil down into 'BASH HIM UP YEH!' which frankly seems a little uncouth and stupid. A politician should be allowed to stand on whatever agenda he likes. It is your right to say that he is stupid and that you'll never vote for him. Not to close him down.

Hitler stood on an agenda of "invade Europe and kill everyone". Should that have been allowed?

I honestly think most of you people who believe in the same sort of mantra as tomato should just go and live in a country where different beliefs are persecuted. Go try Zimbabwe I hear they just LOVE ethnic/political diversity.

Right. We want tolerance, a friendly and hospitable ,country for all creeds and cultures, and to welcome people as friends, and enable them to settle in a place free from prejudice and bigotry. And you say we shoud move to Zimbabwee.

What planet are you currently orbiting?

Hey, at least I can spell irony, and Zimbabwe and Should too.

I have already said that I'm not a BNP supporter. I would rather vote conservative or the frigging Roman party rather than the BNP.

Everyone uses terror in their arguments. Look at CHRISTIANITY for frigs sake! They bang on about how we will all suffer the eternal fires of hell. How is that not instilling fear?!? They say homosexuality is a product of the devil! How is that not instilling fear?

Islam is constantly homophobic, antisemitic and chauvinistic. Would you ever dare to say that they are instilling fear and hatred?

Also, your hitler analogy was rubbish. He didn't come into power saying he was gonna declare war on the world.

 

[Crimson Cade]

I have already said that I'm not a BNP supporter. I would rather vote conservative or the frigging Roman party rather than the BNP.

Everyone uses terror in their arguments. Look at CHRISTIANITY for frigs sake! They bang on about how we will all suffer the eternal fires of hell. How is that not instilling fear?!? They say homosexuality is a product of the devil! How is that not instilling fear?

Islam is constantly homophobic, antisemitic and chauvinistic. Would you ever dare to say that they are instilling fear and hatred?

Also, your hitler analogy was rubbish. He didn't come into power saying he was gonna declare war on the world.

Good luck trying to reason with this guy. For someone who hates them, he is quite similar to the BNP himself, just that instead of thinking all evil in the world comes from immigrants, he thinks all evil comes from racism, without accepting any psychological or sociological explanations of where racial tension and racism comes from, nor the complex nature of racism. That is all just excuses used by people like Hitler and the BNP.

Maybe we should start our own party. Just call it "Evil!" (yes, with an exclamation mark) Have a catchy jingle and bumper stickers with our slogan "Vote Evil! 2012. At least we are honest about it.". Our agenda would include world domination ("OF COURSE!"), extermination of free will (kill all who disagree), death-star research (what is an evil empire without one?), pension schemes (because it has the word "scheme" in it) and creating jobs in the giant statue factories I will start to make sure every city, town, village and hamlet have a giant statue of myself.

Edit:

Without realizing it, I just recited the goals of radical Islam: World domination and extermination of free will, killing all who disagree...

I really pity the upstanding Muslims who have to deal with having that crap looming over them. Crap like that is much of the reason people (who think this is a real threat) vote for the BNP.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Good luck trying to reason with this guy. For someone who hates them, he is quite similar to the BNP himself, just that instead of thinking all evil in the world comes from immigrants, he thinks all evil comes from racism, without accepting any psychological or sociological explanations of where racial tension and racism comes from, nor the complex nature of racism. That is all just excuses used by people like Hitler and the BNP.

Yeah right, the place is just full of racial tension isn't it. There are loads of tea shop owners in Dorset who have to tell their customers: "Sorry dear, we're not allowed to serve a scone until after dark as it's Ramadan." Radio stations have to start the day: "Allaaaaah ? ah-aaaah allaaaaaah. Good morning, this is BBC Radio Sussex calling you to prayer."

In recent years, the biggest political decision was to go to war with Iraq, a move vehemently opposed by every single Muslim in the country, and they still went and did it. I suppose that proves how multicultural we are now. Instead of ignoring British people, they are ignoring Muslims too!

Talk sense, or don't say anything. Unless, that is, you enjoy being made a fool of.

 

[Crimson Cade]

Politicians ignore pretty much everything outside election time. Otherwise: How does this ridiculous nonsense relate to ANYTHING?

I hope you make sense to someone, because all I see is a little abrasive pillock who is too obsessed by his own opinion to even consider what other people are saying without attributing some twisted perspective to it, and through moon-logic think he is not only right, but that everyone who dare have a differing opinion are bumbling idiots who don't know their ass from their heads.

I don't much care to talk sense anymore. If I post 300 words, you have shown time and again that you will take 10 out of the middle, ignore the rest, and apply previously mentioned moon-logic, and try to make that tiny snippet look like I just saluted the fuhrer.

I am sure I could just say "I like pie." and be met with "Well you would, you bigot! Damned if anyone should be able to enjoy some dim sum or a kebab on YOUR watch! Lets kick out anyone who prefer soy to Worcestershire sauce in their soup! Jolly good idea!"

I recognize a brick wall when I see one. So I am snipping this flame-war in the bud, and applying my time to something more constructive.

 

[Grand_Pamplemousse]

I have already said that I'm not a BNP supporter. I would rather vote conservative or the frigging Roman party rather than the BNP.

Everyone uses terror in their arguments. Look at CHRISTIANITY for frigs sake! They bang on about how we will all suffer the eternal fires of hell. How is that not instilling fear?!? They say homosexuality is a product of the devil! How is that not instilling fear?

Islam is constantly homophobic, antisemitic and chauvinistic. Would you ever dare to say that they are instilling fear and hatred?

Also, your hitler analogy was rubbish. He didn't come into power saying he was gonna declare war on the world.

Good luck trying to reason with this guy. For someone who hates them, he is quite similar to the BNP himself, just that instead of thinking all evil in the world comes from immigrants, he thinks all evil comes from racism, without accepting any psychological or sociological explanations of where racial tension and racism comes from, nor the complex nature of racism. That is all just excuses used by people like Hitler and the BNP.

Maybe we should start our own party. Just call it "Evil!" (yes, with an exclamation mark) Have a catchy jingle and bumper stickers with our slogan "Vote Evil! 2012. At least we are honest about it.". Our agenda would include world domination ("OF COURSE!"), extermination of free will (kill all who disagree), death-star research (what is an evil empire without one?), pension schemes (because it has the word "scheme" in it) and creating jobs in the giant statue factories I will start to make sure every city, town, village and hamlet have a giant statue of myself.

Edit:

Without realizing it, I just recited the goals of radical Islam: World domination and extermination of free will, killing all who disagree...

I really pity the upstanding Muslims who have to deal with having that crap looming over them. Crap like that is much of the reason people (who think this is a real threat) vote for the BNP.

No, I think all evil comes from humanity. Racism is just a very very small by-product of what humanity is. How am I possibly similar to the BNP? I just believe that they should have a cotton-picking say!

Jesus, at least try to make sense.

So I am snipping this flame-war in the bud, and applying my time to something more constructive.

Your part of an interent forum. You never do /anything/ constructive.

 

[Crimson Cade]

I have already said that I'm not a BNP supporter. I would rather vote conservative or the frigging Roman party rather than the BNP.

Everyone uses terror in their arguments. Look at CHRISTIANITY for frigs sake! They bang on about how we will all suffer the eternal fires of hell. How is that not instilling fear?!? They say homosexuality is a product of the devil! How is that not instilling fear?

Islam is constantly homophobic, antisemitic and chauvinistic. Would you ever dare to say that they are instilling fear and hatred?

Also, your hitler analogy was rubbish. He didn't come into power saying he was gonna declare war on the world.

Good luck trying to reason with this guy. For someone who hates them, he is quite similar to the BNP himself, just that instead of thinking all evil in the world comes from immigrants, he thinks all evil comes from racism, without accepting any psychological or sociological explanations of where racial tension and racism comes from, nor the complex nature of racism. That is all just excuses used by people like Hitler and the BNP.

Maybe we should start our own party. Just call it "Evil!" (yes, with an exclamation mark) Have a catchy jingle and bumper stickers with our slogan "Vote Evil! 2012. At least we are honest about it.". Our agenda would include world domination ("OF COURSE!"), extermination of free will (kill all who disagree), death-star research (what is an evil empire without one?), pension schemes (because it has the word "scheme" in it) and creating jobs in the giant statue factories I will start to make sure every city, town, village and hamlet have a giant statue of myself.

Edit:

Without realizing it, I just recited the goals of radical Islam: World domination and extermination of free will, killing all who disagree...

I really pity the upstanding Muslims who have to deal with having that crap looming over them. Crap like that is much of the reason people (who think this is a real threat) vote for the BNP.

No, I think all evil comes from humanity. Racism is just a very very small by-product of what humanity is. How am I possibly similar to the BNP? I just believe that they should have a cotton-picking say!

Jesus, at least try to make sense.

Dude, I was referring to cuddly_tomato. Re-read the post in that light, and it should make sense.

 

[Grand_Pamplemousse]

SNIP

SNIP

No, I think all evil comes from humanity. Racism is just a very very small by-product of what humanity is. How am I possibly similar to the BNP? I just believe that they should have a cotton-picking say!

Jesus, at least try to make sense.

Dude, I was referring to cuddly_tomato. Re-read the post in that light, and it should make sense.

Well, umm...

I just feel silly now. It does make more sense

Terribly sorry.

 

[Crimson Cade]

I couldn't agree more that our immigration and asylum systems and politics are completely out of whack, and it is there most of the fault lies. But I would also say that your examples are kinda debatable. Britain and America are both huge players in the history of the world. Britain had the most expansive empire in the history of the world, and as such a more open and insightful view of the world. And immigration works in America because everyone was an immigrant at one point, unless he/she has an ancestor among the native tribes.

You are absolutely right in that there are ways to do immigration right. But even in the aforementioned examples, there has never in the history of the world been a single example where this process went smoothly and pain-free for all parties involved. And that is what I am referring to as "issues with immigration".

If you gather people with wildly different ideologies in a small area, there will be friction. The BNP is an extreme example of a group whose ideologies cannot co-exist with conflicting ones. I am not defending them, or saying they are right. I am simply pointing out cause and effect. And when people who have extreme opinions feel like opposing ideologies are imposed on them, there will be unrest.

From a psychological standpoint, I would say that is why so many people are getting upset with the BNP being popular. They don't like the idea having a VERY conflicting ideology imposed on them should the BNP gain power and become able to implement their politics in their daily lives. Certainly, the ethical MERIT of both parties in this case is severely skewed against the BNP, as their agenda is morally deplorable and ethically suspect, but in the end, it is a conflict of ideology and interests.

I agree wholeheartedly that religion and BNP are equally worthy of criticism for their ways. If you were to remove freedom of speech from anyone, I would say that anyone with a religious agenda should be silenced along with those that have a racist one.

 

[Aerodyamic]

To be honest you seem like a really violent prick.

The only form of LEGAL protest you should/can show? Is not putting a little x by his name on voting day.

He must have some sort of policy that people are interested in. His votes have risen since last voting day, so whatever people are interested in mainstream political parties should try to offer as maybe they could win a few votes. You at least take these people's opinions into consideration when they make up a reasonably large number of people (for a non-mainstream party at least).

Are you seriously saying people with different opinions (okay, weird and unpopular ones) should be attacked? Go live in some police state, I think their policies on speech would be to your liking.

It's been noted in the past that I have aggressive tendencies, and they hardly stop me from being a productive member of society. That said, I have a job that allows me to focus some of my aggression productively, and some hobbies that do the same. That's not particularly relevant to my point, though.

You seem to be convinced that the average, beer-bellied, blue-collar lad with a room temperature I.Q. is going to be informed enough to look beyond the rhetoric of people like the BNP/KKK, who are angling SPECIFICALLY for exactly that demographic. You're also apparently never noticed that the normal sort of encounter with a Nazi Skinhead isn't usually an opportunity to sit and rationally discuss the finer points of immigration policy. Trust me, my earlier point stands: if you're nose-to-nose with a Nazi Skinhead (or any extremist like that), the time for talking is past. They're not interested in any exchange that doesn't involve their boots and your head, and you need to remember that politics is only 'nicer' on the surface. It's still a fight, but it's more visually restrained, and less overtly aggressive.

But, I encourage you to remain optimistic, since your insistence that the voting public will stand against the BNP may indeed come to pass. If it doesn't, I hope you own jackboots.

Edit: Actually, the irony is that you claim that you cherish the diversity and multiculturalism of Britain, but you never bothered to confirm that I was British. I'm Canadian, and in fact, I live in western Canada, where some of the more extreme cases of bigotry and persecution of the Natives has occurred. I didn't have a hand in those acts, but I understand the ramifications of them, within my society. I also live in an area that's experiencing a boom in immigration from eastern Africa, and I've never met a more open, hard-working, honest group of people in my life.

However, I work with about a dozen Germans, 8 or 10 Brits, a few Polacks, and a couple Filipinos. I've heard some of the story behind the BNP directly from blue-collar British sources, who've flat-out told me that jack-boots and a thrashing WOULD be the ideal way to deal with them, if they ever were caught alone. Failing that, they're hoping that the voting public is smart enough to let them rot quietly, unelected.