thaluikhain said:
Areloch said:
I'm in the middle class and do fairly well for myself, but to be honest, where I live, racism is pretty transparent a concept. It's really hard to see it in day to day life.
Well...it's often very difficult to see prejudice that affects people that aren't you. Not the same as it not being there. One of the insidious things about privilege is that it seems perfectly normal. If you've grown up in a group that gets preferential treatment, then that's just the way the world is, and often, seemingly the only way the world could be.
Well, no. I never claimed 'racism doesn't exist'. I said that where I live(and I do know, meet and see people that aren't white) any racism that happens is subtle at most. And it's sort of irrelevant to say "racism exists, you just don't see it." because that was literally what I said. My point is, big, open racism doesn't happen where I live. I've never met someone talking about how black are better off as slaves or anything of the sort. I have no doubt there are some people that are still racist where I live, but they are not open about it when I've been around and I haven't seen movements about it.
And as I said before, to the best of my knowledge, I haven't gotten any direct preferential treatment because I'm white. It may have happened, but it was never in any way I could have known about or discerned. If my boss hired me over a black person because the person was black, I have no way of knowing that. It could have happened, but this is part of the problem with tossing out 'you've benefited from privilege'. Have I? I have no idea. And if I have, I have no idea what would even be done about it.
thaluikhain said:
Now, this isn't an attack on you personally. I am pretty sure that my own privilege has prevented me from seeing various big problems faced by people who aren't me, which will seem really obvious after someone points them out to me.
Yeah, it's cool. But it is complicated stuff.
thaluikhain said:
Areloch said:
In the reply above yours, directed to me, he agrees the term isn't the best, and something like 'Majority Privilege' is probably a better fit. I think I'd agree with that idea, as it doesn't label anyone by race, but implied circumstances. The name is less immediately offending, and it's more accurate to boot.
There's a few problems with that.
Firstly, white privilege works in a different way to, say, straight privilege. Similar, but different. Of course, it works very differently depending on where you live, and this is a point often overlooked. In any case, if you simply mean privilege, but without specifying which kind, well, why not just call it "privilege"?
Fair point on the difference between racial privilege and sexuality privilege, though I don't imagine the distinction is large enough to matter on a whole.
That, and the "problem" with privilege seems to come up only when you align to the majority and thus can benefit from it(in theory).
A white person has privilege for being white, but only if they're in a place where that would do anything at all, such as if they lived in a primarily white area. Hence, the majority part.
Also just saying "Bob, you're privileged" doesn't...really mean anything at that point.
thaluikhain said:
Secondly, that's the tone argument. You're recommending that people make sure not to offend those with privilege. That's always a tempting idea, but it doesn't work, for various reasons. Not least, it's a good example of privilege itself. Also, there's no way to avoid offending people who want to get offended. You can't tell people that they have an unfair advantage, that the way they are brought up, things that seem right and natural to them is harming other people in a way they want to hear. You can sugar coat and water down the argument as much as you want, you can silence and dismiss the oppressed as much as they'll put up with, and it still will annoy people who don't want to know.
Well, I didn't say we shouldn't offend privileged people. I'm suggesting the opposite. Don't tell a white person they've got white privilege if you don't know they do. That makes you look like a dick, and it hardens them against the notion, killing debate.
Like said above, privilege only enters into play and matters if you're in a position to benefit from any theoretical privilege you may have. If I'm a white guy living in a neighborhood that is all black, I don't get any societal benefits at all from it. In fact, I run a higher risk of being slighted for being white and other black people being picked over me. The circumstantial settings would dictate a black privilege.
So flatly telling all white people they're white privileged is counter to the real issue, which is awareness that you may subtly benefit from your circumstances based on race(or other impossible-to-change life factors). What you want to do is bring attention to the idea of privilege without inadvertently lumping people that do and do not have it together, because then everyone is worse off for it. At that point you're basically reinforcing racism. And that doesn't help at all.
edit:fixed formatting.