Socialized Health Care

[Naeo]

I think a public health care system is gravely needed here.

About 50 million of 300 million people have no insurance; a small fraction of those who have it (I can't quote the number or cite the source here) are satisfied with the system, and they're probably the rich ones. And what's more, the insurance companies are just criminal. If you get DNA testing and they find out "Oh no, you might actually get sick because you are SLIGHTLY more prone to getting a benign tumor" they can and often do take away every single penny of insurance money you've paid them over the years and just cut you off/out. They are also far more reluctant to take in customers who have a familial history of a disease.

I think that we'd have a problem if every single person had free government-sponsored health care. I don't have any love at all for the insurance companies, but they are employers and would see a drop in business. Which really isn't what we'd need in the current economic situation. Ditto on raising taxes. Maybe, since the deadline has passed for American troops to pull out of Iraq, we can divert some of the tax money that had been going to the military towards this.

And though I'm sure there would be checks against this, there's always the possibility of people abusing the system.

I'd love to see this happen and work well, but I think there'll be a few roadblocks on the way there. Maybe some large and unexpected ones.

 

[megalomania]

I'm going to put it quite simply so all the dummies out there can understand it:

Any society that has turned health care into a profit making venture has deep fundamental flaws.

Got it?

 

[TMAN10112]

[...]. The Idea is that the general public is offered a free option when it comes to healthcare, but its still an option to have private insurence.[...]?

If a free option is given to the public, then insurence companies only have two options: Improve quality and prices (not fucking people over at evey chance they get would help too),[...].

[...]If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.

This is already how it is.

In the U.S.?

 

[Skeleon]

[...]. The Idea is that the general public is offered a free option when it comes to healthcare, but its still an option to have private insurence.[...]?

If a free option is given to the public, then insurence companies only have two options: Improve quality and prices (not fucking people over at evey chance they get would help too),[...].

[...]If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.

This is already how it is.

In the U.S.?

No, in the countries with public health care.
Well, at least in Germany.
But I wouldn't think it'd be any different in the other countries that have it.

Maybe somebody from other countries with public health care can comment on this?

 

[KSarty]

I think a public health care system is gravely needed here.

About 50 million of 300 million people have no insurance; a small fraction of those who have it (I can't quote the number or cite the source here) are satisfied with the system, and they're probably the rich ones. And what's more, the insurance companies are just criminal. If you get DNA testing and they find out "Oh no, you might actually get sick because you are SLIGHTLY more prone to getting a benign tumor" they can and often do take away every single penny of insurance money you've paid them over the years and just cut you off/out. They are also far more reluctant to take in customers who have a familial history of a disease.

I think that we'd have a problem if every single person had free government-sponsored health care. I don't have any love at all for the insurance companies, but they are employers and would see a drop in business. Which really isn't what we'd need in the current economic situation. Ditto on raising taxes. Maybe, since the deadline has passed for American troops to pull out of Iraq, we can divert some of the tax money that had been going to the military towards this.

And though I'm sure there would be checks against this, there's always the possibility of people abusing the system.

I'd love to see this happen and work well, but I think there'll be a few roadblocks on the way there. Maybe some large and unexpected ones.

You're assuming that the 50 million who don't have it can't afford it. I can afford health insurance but I don't want it so I am a part of that 50 million, but not because I can't afford it and need help.

 

[Lord Beautiful]

I'm in favor of an alternative public healthcare option. The Idea is that the general public is offered a free option when it comes to healthcare, but its still an option to have private insurence. Of coarse, why should anyone pay for insurence then?

If a free option is given to the public, then insurence companies only have two options: Improve quality and prices (not fucking people over at evey chance they get would help too), or simply fade into oblivion.

An insurence company is a buisness, and paying for your cusomer's treatment is bad for buisness, so most try their best to avoid doing so. If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.

This is what I've been thinking about for the past year or so, but I'm just not completely certain of this approach. Then again, I'm not completely certain of anything. There are disadvantages of believing in nothing.

I can't think of any flaws with this approach, but my mind is just waiting to find something wrong with it.

 

[iTeamKill]

I know there's a stereotype running around that Americans are terrified of anything socialist--but I certainly wouldn't be adverse to it. I'm putting myself through college and I can't afford health insurance.

I lose my health care coverage next month. I'm still 2 years from graduation. (I dropped out and went back. Its all good though. I have a 3.86 this time!) Please oh please offer some form of public health care!. I wanted to go to White Face Mountain for some Down Hill Mountain biking in the fall!!!

 

[Del-Toro]

I personally love the idea of NHS unfortunately I live in America and anything with the term Socialist makes people hide under their beds and curse. I mean as an Authoritarian I see how the State must take care of its own citizenry otherwise what good is the State? No State is worth supporting that won't take care of the basic needs of its citizenry let alone the dregs of its society. A Society should always be based on how it takes care of its weakest members and in regards to the United States we fail at that. This is one of the biggest reasons I am looking at immigrating that and our Education system blows.

Thats my biggest problem with the idea. Its not just a knee-jerk reaction to the word socialism. I don't trust our government with what they already have control over, why would we want to give them more control?

This is typical colonial backwards thinking and this is what is destroying our nation.

Scrutinizing the government is backwards?

Yeah since when? A true patriot questions his government and strives to keep them honest, not just taking everything on faith. A patriot is loyal to his homeland, and makes sure his government is not corrupt and doing more harm than good.

 

[Rajin Cajun]

I'm going to put it quite simply so all the dummies out there can understand it:

Any society that has turned health care into a profit making venture has deep fundamental flaws.

Got it?

Exactly and this is why people who propogate this system like KSarty and Glenn Beck are fucking it all up. Just a bunch of Greedy Capitalist Swines that hate the lower Masses and feel the Upper Class should be only allowed Health Care. This is why America is such a stinking shithole with all the Elitism and Classism that literally keeps the system from working.

 

[Agent Larkin]

We have the HSE. It is the single most useless healthcare system on Earth. Not because of the Doctors and Nurses but the managers.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

I think its an interesting concept. Exactly how it would work or how good it would be; I don't know.

 

[KSarty]

I'm going to put it quite simply so all the dummies out there can understand it:

Any society that has turned health care into a profit making venture has deep fundamental flaws.

Got it?

Exactly and this is why people who propogate this system like KSarty and Glenn Beck are fucking it all up. Just a bunch of Greedy Capitalist Swines that hate the lower Masses and feel the Upper Class should be only allowed Health Care. This is why America is such a stinking shithole with all the Elitism and Classism that literally keeps the system from working.

As I said before I am a part of the working class. I make less than $50,000 a year, how is that upper class? I also said that I don't have health insurance myself, because I don't want it. You're assuming that everyone who doesn't have it is desperately trying to get it. There are plenty of people who genuinely need the help, but there will also be plenty of people who don't genuinely need the help who will still receive it, that is what I am hoping to avoid.

You're the second person to insult me as narrow-minded and greedy because I don't agree with you. You so-called open-minded individuals are very quick to attack those with different opinions aren't you?

 

[Sanaj]

Socialized health care isn't going to make doctors care more or make nurses friendlier.

NHS will end up being abused just like every other form of social financial assistance program such as welfare and social security. The end result will be that middle/upper-class citizens will end up paying for the health care of millions of people who do not deserve that charity to begin with. I'm sick of giving the government a blank-check and just expecting that they will do what is best for us, and that all this will end up being, again.

You don't understand what I meant by abuse obviously. What I meant by that is that there will be people who claim that they are poor, and they really aren't. They will get welfare checks, they will have reduced taxes, and they will receive the national health care without paying the taxes into it like they should be. The people who don't deserve aren't the ones who are poor, they are the ones that make it look like they are poor. It happens all the time. Welfare and social security are already in serious trouble because of assholes like this and it will happen again with NHS, I guarantee it.

Regardless, my other point of giving the government a blank check still stands. I don't understand why so many people want the federal government to just run their lives for them.

The two classic arguments against any social program or socialized health care "welfare bums leeching off the system" and
"government controls enough already".

"Welfare bums leeching off the system"--- this problem is usually highly exaggerated and used as an excuse to shoot down social programs.
Don't skirt around what you are actually trying to say... you don't want to be pay taxes for socialized health care.

'Why should I help the poor or the less fortunate they don't deserve it?'
--Is basically the impression I get from reading between the lines of your posts in this thread.

Doesn't everyone have some problem(s) or need help from someone at one point in their life at least?
Most people are still paying for health care it's just through taxes, it's just not going to private insurance companies.
You don't need money first in order to be treated...I thought this was a good thing.

"Government controls enough already"--- I support people being involved in politics and questioning government decisions.
However, it must be understood that society does not function with everyone being completely independent.
Large scale public projects, socialized health care and other social programs require people to be collectivist.

Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Social Contract is considered an example of collectivist political philosophy, which maintains that human society is organized along the lines of an implicit contract between members of society, and that the terms of this contract (e.g. the powers of government, the rights and responsibilities of individual citizens, etc.) are rightfully decided by the "general will" - that is, the will of the people. The people are represented by the government; essentially the government decides what is right for the people.
-Source wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism

 

[Oolinthu]

Okay, here is a perspective from an American

I don't think it is a good idea. I know that it will help peoplewho are otherwise uninsured have health insurance. I will not deny that. Buy, BUT, I fear that it could push the private health insurance companies out of business, which is a bad thing. Because then the government would have a monopoly on the healthcare insurance industry, and monopolies are not good things.
Because how are private insurance companies supposed to compete with a compete with a company that has unlimited money? (the government)
So, I understand why people will think it is a good thing, but they must understand that our government already has a multitrillion dollar debt, and every year we sink farther and farther, imagine what paying for everyone's healthcare is going to do to the US budget.

I'll admit that I'm not anywhere near as informed on the health care debate as I should be, but there's an obvious flaw in your reasoning there. Since when does the government have unlimited money? To compete with a national health service, private health care companies would either have to lower their prices accordingly, or offer superior care and specialized services that those with enough money will pay for.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

We have the HSE. It is the single most useless healthcare system on Earth. Not because of the Doctors and Nurses but the managers.

You sir, have clearly never visited South Africa. Let me put it to you like this: In South Africa, the standard of the top private healthcare provided, is below the standard set by the NHS. I assure you this is the case. Antibiotics are handed out liek candy, hospitals are shiny and well-decorated but poorly cleaned, and you'll wait just as long for care. And you'll damn well pay.

Mind you, if you go into a government hospital over there, don't expect to come out again.

KSarty, you have cited several cases where the benefits system is abused. Pray explain to me, then, how this bears any relation to how public healthcare could be abused


*Crickets*

 

[Good morning blues]

I live in Canada. The pros of our socialized health care system are that it provides quality care to everyone for a modest cost in the form of taxes and super-cheap insurance. The cons are that you'll have to wait a while for elective procedures (as it should be, frankly) and that you can wait for several hours in the ER if you're not a triage priority (not a huge problem, if you ask me). Sure, there are horror stories (although I hear them a lot more in the States) and some ridiculous oversights (somehow, insulin pumps aren't free - who the hell made that decision?), but on the whole it's a very, very good system that pretty much meets everyone's needs.

I don't understand the fear over GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING OUR LIVES when it comes to health care. Socialized health care hasn't made Canada, England, France, or any other country I can think of any worse off. This isn't government choosing who does and doesn't get penicillin, this is government giving you free penicillin. I also don't get this bullshit about "people will pretend they're poor and scam the system." Isn't it better to have a couple of people scamming the system and everybody being covered than it is to have nobody scamming the system and thousands of people dying because they couldn't afford proper health care?

 

[Agent Larkin]

We have the HSE. It is the single most useless healthcare system on Earth. Not because of the Doctors and Nurses but the managers.

You sir, have clearly never visited South Africa. Let me put it to you like this: In South Africa, the standard of the top private healthcare provided, is below the standard set by the NHS. I assure you this is the case. Antibiotics are handed out liek candy, hospitals are shiny and well-decorated but poorly cleaned, and you'll wait just as long for care. And you'll damn well pay.

Mind you, if you go into a government hospital over there, don't expect to come out again.

KSarty, you have cited several cases where the benefits system is abused. Pray explain to me, then, how this bears any relation to how public healthcare could be abused


*Crickets*

Will you accept Worst Healthcare in Europe?