Socialized Health Care

[Bulletinmybrain]

An insurence company is a buisness, and paying for your cusomer's treatment is bad for buisness, so most try their best to avoid doing so. If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.

This problem has actually gotten so bad that some states have actually made it illegal to deny coverage based on family history and DNA tests.

Which is complete and utter bullshit. A business should be able to serve how it wants as long as it is legal. You may call them evil if you would like to if they want, but they are a business, First and foremost.

1) Well sure. Of course, there's a difference between a business that is owned by the operators, and a Limited Liability entity, a status given to it by the law that gives those who own it a protection that other people do not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability

2) You do realize that your justification for why businesses shouldn't be under that burden also justifies businesses being able to discriminate against any group, including veterans of the armed services and rape victims, right? I'm not arguing here that you're wrong, but I am pointing out that your justification...might cover cases you don't want to wind up covering.

Wouldn't them not being able to tell who they are really covering be just as bad? It is like a mystery dish. Sure, it might be something good.. Or it could be just a flaming bowl of shit.

Also: If people are in need of medical treatment more often, then they should have to pay more then those of that don't.

 

[KhakiHat]

@Plinglebob: First off, unless you got your "boots bloody" on the ground, no position in the NHS will convince me of your authority, But lets assume this, as you speak with such.

This is where America could lead the way in Socialized Health Care. What needs to be done is elimination of the current insurance system and an increase in taxes to cover care up to a point. This means treatments which have a chance of saving a life or significantly extending your life (3 years plus) get paid for, but treatments which only extend your life for a while (like most cancer drugs) or arn't needed for your own health (cosmetic surgery, IVF) have to be
paid out of your own pocket.

The 3 years or more rule will not fly well in the US. We like days; Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays and those days we make up because some dude with a stove top hat got himself killed cause he did his job right. For some reason we like spending these days roting in a hospital bed watching young teenyboppers vocalizing their distaste at some new development in some drama about young rich philanderers.

In response to the fears about "Scamming the system", how?

I know the how, its the why that confuses me. No matter, its not like doctors sign off restricted narcs for no good reason... Unless you could convince one that you had a good reason. I'm sure you know the drill.

Just my two cents. I hate it too, but I also don't like the thought of havening metrics applied to my medical care. Don't worry, I plan to die in an inferno of jet plane parts saving a baby from zombie Jackson rather than take up needless beds. I just hope some other US adminastration does the job, not the present one.

*shutter*

another story for another time.

[Edit] Baked brain. Curse your sunny days California!

 

[Zombie_Fish]

Then there's the waiting list for it. If your injury isn't serious then it will be at the bottom of the list of people to treat. I almost experienced this once, as I needed a foot operation but because it wasn't very serious, if I hadn't been covered on my dad's health insurance, it would've taken months to get an operation.

Heh--doesn't sound that much different from over here, actually. We forget that the people complaining about the NHS are people who would be getting *no* medical care over here in a lot of cases, AND that private medical treatment does exist in the UK:

http://www.bma.org.uk/employmentandcontracts/fees/feesparttimemed.jsp?page=7
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=518924

And private treatment sorted out my foot. I can see why the NHS do it that way, as you would expect the more serious injuries to get treatment faster, but I would've just been annoyed at it as during that time when I would go to sleep my foot would start hurting.

Wasn't really much of a criticism, just something that I thought should've been pointed out.

 

[akmarksman]

Well the Chocolate Jesus says..so it must be done according to the Dems..

Personally I'm not in favor of it..but I'm also not in favor of all the illegal border hoppers getting better care than citizens who joined the military and came home with a war injury and their care system is well..about like doctor riviera on the simpsons.

I watched Sicko..but why is it all the Cubans want to immigrate to the USA if their healthcare is so much better than ours?

 

[DarkFenix]

I live in Canada. The pros of our socialized health care system are that it provides quality care to everyone for a modest cost in the form of taxes and super-cheap insurance. The cons are that you'll have to wait a while for elective procedures (as it should be, frankly) and that you can wait for several hours in the ER if you're not a triage priority (not a huge problem, if you ask me). Sure, there are horror stories (although I hear them a lot more in the States) and some ridiculous oversights (somehow, insulin pumps aren't free - who the hell made that decision?), but on the whole it's a very, very good system that pretty much meets everyone's needs.

I don't understand the fear over GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING OUR LIVES when it comes to health care. Socialized health care hasn't made Canada, England, France, or any other country I can think of any worse off. This isn't government choosing who does and doesn't get penicillin, this is government giving you free penicillin. I also don't get this bullshit about "people will pretend they're poor and scam the system." Isn't it better to have a couple of people scamming the system and everybody being covered than it is to have nobody scamming the system and thousands of people dying because they couldn't afford proper health care?

This man is smart, listen to him.

I can agree with this as I also live in Canada. The wait times can be a little annoying but better to wait knowing you will eventually get help then to know you can't afford the help you need. There are a few who need a bit more common sense though and waste time on minor things they can treat at home. Otherwise its rather nice to have.

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

Wouldn't them not being able to tell who they are really covering be just as bad? It is like a mystery dish. Sure, it might be something good.. Or it could be just a flaming bowl of shit.

Sorry, I'm confused as to what you're asking me exactly.

Also: If people are in need of medical treatment more often, then they should have to pay more then those of that don't.

Maybe. But we don't like, charge Hawaiians more for military protection even though they need it more often.Military defense is a public good supplied by the government. On the other hand if you were to hire guards to say, guard a place likely to be attacked they would want more money then somebody who say, guards a warehouse. We don't charge people who live in rural areas more for mail delivery even though it costs more to deliver mail to people who are spread out. Because the the UPSP is a public service, and the fact that distance isn't a problem in delivering anymore, it is speed. Every road could be a toll road if we wanted. We already pay for road usage, it is called taxes.

Again--not arguing right or wrong at this point, just bringing up what people don't often consider. For instance, some states pay two dollars in taxes for every dollar they get in Federal government spending, while other states are below a dollar. We've got some states subsidizing other states, so, let's talk about the core issue of income transfer in general before talking about it when it comes to health care as if we all agree/our arguments against health care aren't applicable to plenty of other stuff the government does that we wish they weren't.

Anyways, this probably makes sense and works. Doesn't mean I would like to agree on it being so convoluted.

 

[asinann]

An insurence company is a buisness, and paying for your cusomer's treatment is bad for buisness, so most try their best to avoid doing so. If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.

This problem has actually gotten so bad that some states have actually made it illegal to deny coverage based on family history and DNA tests.

Which is complete and utter bullshit. A business should be able to serve how it wants as long as it is legal. You may call them evil if you would like to if they want, but they are a business, First and foremost.

Except that it is now illegal. They can do it in the states that DNA discrimination is legal in any time they want. In my state that is actually enforced as part of our constitutional (state) ban on all forms of discrimination in business and government.

 

[Kinguendo]

Honestly, why are there actually Americans against universal healthcare?

Other than SOCIALISM, woooooo, scary(!)

Can people actually ignore the fact that the private healthcare system is making too much money so they bribe senators and even President Bush, so I pose a new question:

Whats wrong with President Obama NOT being corrupt and instead pushing universal healthcare?

It makes me quite angry that people are so blind, the reasons for people being declined insurance is ridiculous... "Too young to have cervical cancer"!!! Good job you pay so much money for insurance so they can feed you that bulls**t!!!

EDIT: Yeah, thats right... When Evil Jak takes something seriously and it angers him you had better believe something is wrong.

 

[cobra_ky]

This is typical colonial backwards thinking and this is what is destroying our nation.

You actually trust our corrupt, overpayed, uninterested government to do the right thing?

you actually trust our corrupt, overpaid, uninterested corporations to do any better?

i have never heard anyone from a country with socialized medicine complain that they'd rather have healthcare in the U.S. I've heard dozens of stories about people who were refused treatment or even died because insurance companies declined to cover their treatment.

you're probably not going to pay much more in the long run. even if you don't have insurance and your taxes go up, you're balancing that against any medical costs you're going to accrue over the rest of your life.

why is the auto industry in so much more trouble than the rest of the economy? in part, it's because they're contractually obligated to pay for the health care for retired union workers. do you really think union workers in the US get TOO MUCH health care? has the U.S. healthcare industry shown any inclination to lower costs?

 

[Xrysthos]

At the moment I live in Norway, and the health care system here is socialized. It's good in many ways, and there are only two conceivable problems with it: You might have to wait longer to get treated, and the standards at hospitals are generally lower than what you might have had being sick been a costly affair. Which I'm grateful it isn't. you do however not have to wait very long, and the standards are probably higher than in most other countries. Anyways, there's always the option to head to a private clinic here too. But the pros far outweigh the cons.

 

[Rajin Cajun]

This is typical colonial backwards thinking and this is what is destroying our nation.

You actually trust our corrupt, overpayed, uninterested government to do the right thing?

you actually trust our corrupt, overpaid, uninterested corporations to do any better?

i have never heard anyone from a country with socialized medicine complain that they'd rather have healthcare in the U.S. I've heard dozens of stories about people who were refused treatment or even died because insurance companies declined to cover their treatment.

you're probably not going to pay much more in the long run. even if you don't have insurance and your taxes go up, you're balancing that against any medical costs you're going to accrue over the rest of your life.

why is the auto industry in so much more trouble than the rest of the economy? in part, it's because they're contractually obligated to pay for the health care for retired union workers. do you really think union workers in the US get TOO MUCH health care? has the U.S. healthcare industry shown any inclination to lower costs?

Exactly. Do people really trust corporations that much? I would rather deal with a government bureaucrat then a guy who is just looking at pumping me for money.

 

[Knonsense]

I was against it. Then I watched SiCKO. Even though I HATE Michael Moore, that movie made some extremely interesting points and the countries with socialized health care looked much better off than in America. As much as I hate to say it, Michael Moore was right and I would recommend watching it.

Michael Moore is a sleazy bastard. Of course his movies make countries that follow his agenda look better than those that don't. That's what they're designed, shot, and heavily edited to do.

I mean, his crew will admit a good number of untruths. In Bowling for Columbine, he was showing how much more trusting the Canadian people could afford to be with gun control by showing all the unlocked front doors he could find in Canada and hiding the others.

The fact that Michael Moore supports something doesn't necessarily discredit it, but remember: Michael Moore makes his money by producing fiction.

 

[BonsaiK]

Socializing medicine would, in theory, fix most of these problems right there and that's why i prefer it to what we have now.

"Theory" is the operative word.
In theory, Soviet-style Communism would lead to paradise on earth. Look how well that worked out.

In theory, American-style Democracy would lead to freedom from sea to shining sea. Look how well that worked out. At least, compared to every other system.

Let's not forget that America is a grand experiment by a bunch of eggheads who thought the theories of philosophers like John Locke and Adam Smith were right.

Could you imagine if Obama started talking about some kind of "invisible hand" as a reason for why his polices would work?

It was 'Stache who said that, not me. Why are you putting my name there as if I said that? I completely disagree with him.

 

[Gadzooks]

Wow, you americans have a messed up point of view. I won't go into a long rant about why your fears are misguided, I'll just say a little; I haven't heard anyone from a country with a national healthcare system with a genuine and reasonable complaint. In fact, I'm not sure I've really heard any complaint in my own country (Australia).

Surely there is a reason that all these countries are so happy with their governments handling of health care - you know, because it works might be a starter. Stop being so afraid of change, damn it, it worked for everyone else just fine so why would america be such an exception to the rule? I think somewhere along the way you were misinformed, because noone is trying to rip off the system here, there is nothing wrong with our tax rate, and I haven't had any problems with treatment. The fears seem so bizarre.

 

[akmarksman]

My family's personal experience with socialized medicine involves my dad's parents leaving Canada and it's healthcare system to move the U.S.

My sister was going down to Washington State for her college courses last year and she had Canadian residents telling her they came to Alaska because the healthcare was better..especially in regards to cardiac related issues.

just my 2cents.