Societal Opposition to Self-Death

[Candidus]

Snip

By the same token, the law being what it is makes some terminally ill people prisoners in their own bodies, and their "carers" become their tormentors and jailors. It's disgusting. In my opinion, every time a "carer" walks into a ward and turns, washes and wipes a person whom they know or strongly suspect would prefer to be dead, they personally are doing something morally despicable.

I'm the sovereign of my body. And I'm not just throwing that word around. I'm the single absolute authority over my body. It's up to me when, how, and if necessary who helps me to die. I would exercise that right or leverage certain other people to exercise that right in the event of a major stroke or paralyzing physical injury. This is a right that the law cannot give me or take away from me.

It's also a right that the rest of you have, and I accept no right to gainsay it. I don't have the right, I don't want the right and no law could legitimately give me or anybody else the right, whether you wanted it to or not.

The law today as it pertains to the right to die is archaic and barbaric in my opinion.

...

I'm so fortunate to be able to count on one friend and a certain family member to help me to die in the event that I need them. And of course I've given them the same guarantees. My heart goes out to those who don't have anybody to give them the same deal.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

I can say with reasonable certainty that I have never heard someone refer to suicide as "self-death".

Is this some weird PC thing now that I haven't heard of?

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

Ethics! Hooray.

First, "autonomy" is accepted, by and large, as one of the most valuable "goods." On its own, we'd say, "Hey, look, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. Let them kill themselves."

However, let's look at some of the reasons it's not entirely that simple.

1. Like Gethsemani said, many attempted suicides are the result of mental illness. Having a mental illness can make you a "limited autonomous" person. In the same way that we have a higher moral duty to protect our children than to let them do whatever we want, we also have an obligation to be stewards to those who are not acting entirely in their fullest capacity.

E.g. We try to make the choices for "limited autonomy" persons that we believe that they would make themselves, if they could.

2. There's such a concept as an "evaluative delusion." We all do this. It's when we think something is more important than it actually is. So, it's like when you get in the car but don't put your seatbelt on. There's no logical reason to do that, it takes 2 seconds and keeps you safe. But, in our foolishness, we often will skip this step.

And because suicide is such an irreversible action, we want to make really, really sure that the person considering suicide is not in cases 1 or 2.

Example: A 16-year old boy gets dumped. Wants to commit suicide. Should we let him? NO. Because he's not properly evaluating his choices. He's too caught up in hormones and emotions and poor judgment to make that kind of a choice.

Now, it's a bit different when it comes to terminal illnesses and the like. But, for the general population, these two reasons sum up why suicide is considered a "bad" thing to happen to someone.

 

[visiblenoise]

Well, depending on how they decide to go about it, there's the potential mess that others have to mop up. The only solution to that would be to create clean methods of suicide, but then that might be seen as encouragement, so there's really no solution.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

so, let's talk assisted suicide here, exactly what barriers does and rules should be in place to prevent doctors from "arranging someone's end" or the doctor being obliged to act occording to his irrational patient?

The legal aspect to this is so messy and complicated, not to mention, what about friends and relatives who disagree with the suicidee's decision, rational or not, what if they come after the people responsible for helping someone end their life?

I think that for a lot of people, assisted suicide should be a thing that can be available to some people, but just haven't figured out a good system in which to do so, let alone pass through public opinion.

 

[Thyunda]

"Self-death." Mm. Has a nice ring to it. Makes it almost seem noble.

Don't romanticise suicide. First and foremost, before I address any other aspect of this topic, do not romanticise suicide. Already this has put me in a frame of mind where I do not think you are referring to euthanasia. It seems to me as though you have scribbled this on the back of a My Chemical Romance album.

And that's idiotic. If healthy people are committing suicide, something is either wrong with them or wrong with their situation. Suicide fixes neither. Gethsemani has neatly covered the first, and if the second needs covering, then we have more issues. So, in this era of advanced technology and values, the reason we don't promote, encourage nor societally permit suicide is because it doesn't help anybody. Ever.

 

[sebashepin]

(...) I cannot stand when people kill themselves, because what they do not only affects them, but everyone around them, plunging them into inconsolable sadness for a very short but very intense time, and keeping them to some degree of sadness for a very long time afterwards, if not permanently. (...)

Exactly my thoughts, a proper suicide has to look at the pain his/her death will cause to their loved ones and say "Yeah, this is less than the pain i'm currently through". In which case is that even possible?

That said, what about cases like http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/david-carter-dead-suicide_n_1258367.html ? Points in where you clearly don't matter to anyone else and you're nothing but dead weight on your society? Isn't death preferable to permanent self-awareness of your own insignificance?

 

[default]

I think people should be able to do whatever they like with their lives. I think it's up to them to decide whether the pain has just been too much and whether it's worth the effort of still continuing to try and get better when everything before has failed and when every single day is just a struggle to function and it feels like you're being tormented and eaten away inside every second of every fucking day for the last eight years.

That being said, they also need to consider the people they leave behind. You are really just transferring the pain to the people you love. I will never forget my mum's face the last time I ended up in hospital from trying to step off the roof of a building. I'm not going to try it again in a very long time, if at all.


There also seem to be a few people in this thread who really just don't quite get how much raw pain these people can go through every single day, especially if it has been over a long term.

That said, suicide is never the only option. There is help out there and people who love you. There is medication if you need it.


There are also some massive fucking assholes in this thread with zero empathy for the incredible pain some people go through, calling them cowards and saying it's the 'easy way out'.

Fuck off.


EDIT: I also think saying that this is an era of 'enhanced values' is a bit silly.


Man, I don't even know why I look at these threads, much less have the compulsion to talk about it. I guess this is just a really important and close to home topic to me, but this has made for a really shitty start to my day.

 

[carnex]

(...) I cannot stand when people kill themselves, because what they do not only affects them, but everyone around them, plunging them into inconsolable sadness for a very short but very intense time, and keeping them to some degree of sadness for a very long time afterwards, if not permanently. (...)

Exactly my thoughts, a proper suicide has to look at the pain his/her death will cause to their loved ones and say "Yeah, this is less than the pain i'm currently through". In which case is that even possible?

That said, what about cases like http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/david-carter-dead-suicide_n_1258367.html ? Points in where you clearly don't matter to anyone else and you're nothing but dead weight on your society? Isn't death preferable to permanent self-awareness of your own insignificance?

I understand that point, but there is no objective way to set rules. I guess you could go on a campaign of being ultimate asshole until everybody starts hating you, but that is realm of comic books.

What I have to say is that committing suicide with underage children or other person/s unable to take care of themselves dependent on you takes a whole lot more resolve. But if people are self-dependent than maybe, just maybe, person is to look after their own needs too.

And no, most people who try to commit suicide will do that at that exact moment. Some will attempt it again tho, because for some there is no way out that they can see. Frankly, I'm not sure would it be my right to convince them not to kill themselves if there is not a reasonable expectation for betterment of their lives.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Anyone else find it most perplexing as to why, in this era of advanced values and technology, we still oppose the right for others to take their lives?
Over 7 billion people on this planet, some wishing to die, others wishing to rest, but both clamoring for the same goal: rest. Is it truly so illogical as wanting to finally close your eyes for good? To not suffer anymore?

Yet, we have people who call this act abhorrent or selfish, when they fail to acknowledge just what precipitated the feelings. They are afraid of losing someone or seeing one stop existing, yet they don't take into account how the afflicted feel and what they deserve, what rights they have to ending their own life.

Depends why someone wants to take their own life. If someone decides to end their life prematurely due to an incurable illness then I don't think the act is looked down on particularly. Sure, some people have objections based on religious grounds, but for the main part this desire to meet an early end on personal terms is understood and even accepted (thinking of the Dignitas clinics in Europe).

But suicide from clinical depression, bipolar disorder, or other mental instability is a different kettle of fish.

Firstly, having a mental disease is enough to make people believe that the affected person may not be making the decision in their own mind. Secondly, people affected by depression are often so absorbed in their own suffering that they do not think of what will happen in the aftermath of their suicide. I was unfortunate to have a good friend hang themselves a few years back. His actions sent shockwaves through his friends and family - his mother entered a deep depression of her own and a year later she divorced his father (who himself had been unable to emotionally cope with the loss of his son and the emotional change in the woman he loved). Friends who had been inseperable since childhood fractured and split apart, each blaming the others for not being there for him or becoming self-absorbed with their own feelings of inadequacy as they blamed themselves for not being close enough to him for him to talk to them. It is the emotional devastation that a suicide leaves in their wake that leads people to describe these acts as selfish, as in their obsession to remove their own suffering suicides inflict great mental and emotional damage on those that love them - and it is due to their mental condition that they fail to realise that there are, in fact, a good deal of people that love them.

EDITed to remove dumb-ass IPad 'auto-correct' errors.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I'd look into 26 or so people who survived jumping off of the Golden Gate Bridge.

Here is just a few of the views expressed [http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out-the-darkness/201109/the-jumpers]

Universally, 26 out of 26, Thanked whatever they believed in (even if it was dumb luck) that they were alive. They all knew while they plummeted that things could be fixed. But their loss will never be fixed in the lives of their loved ones.

One of my close friends suffered from Cancer since she was 13. She fought it off several times. The last time, it metastasized within 35% of her skeleton. The outlook was grim. The treatment would have kept her alive but severely weakened, sick and frail the for such a long period of time... without being sure that it would work at all. but the pain and side effects would be assured even if it didn't save her life.

She opted out.

I wanted to fight. We all did. but we all knew what she would go through. She chose to end it by not going through the procedure. She lasted three weeks after that decision. She was comfortable.

We honored her decision. We honored Her. That pain was inevitable and it probably would have come back even if she beat the odds with that treatment.

So you can be damn sure I will not tolerate people who just can't get dates. There is more to life than that. I can't get dates either. But my life does not end because a girl doesn't want to share her time with me. Nor not getting the job I want. Or into college. As I still breathe, more options can come where others failed.

 

[BeerTent]

Pre-face: I am a Registered Nurse who've worked for 4 years in a ward for affective illnesses, that is depression, bipolarity, personality disorders etc..

No, I don't find it perplexing at all. About half of the people who attempt suicide but fail and are hospitalized in this city end up on our ward and receive treatment for depressions, life crisis, bipolar disorder or some other form of illness that impairs cognition and lowers your mood. We also receive a lot of patients who are contemplating suicide but are yet to make an attempt. In more than 95 out of 100 cases we manage to treat these people and get them back to their daily life without them having to commit suicide as "a way out".

The truth is that most suicides are committed while suffering from some form of mental disorder (most usually depression) and that the mental disorder can be treated if help is sought. The person contemplating suicide can find joy and meaning in life again if they get the proper health and support. To me it is perplexing that we think this is alright, that seriously ill people should be allowed to commit suicide instead of encouraging them to seek support, help and treatment for their problems.

There are times when suicide is a viable alternative, terminal illness being the most obvious, but they are few and far between and most suicides today aren't committed by people in those situations. No, suicides are committed by otherwise healthy people who suffer a crisis or an illness that makes them unable to think straight. That's why they need help, not encouragement to take their own lives.

This. I feel this needs much, much more recognition. Sometimes I wish this forum had a "Kudos" option of some sort.

Suicide, is far, far too often a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Death is the be all end all. Throw away whatever propaganda you've heard. It's just dirt and worms, and there are very, very few things in this lopsided world that are worse than dirt and worms. Everybody has the strength to continue, you just need to find it. It'll be difficult at times, yes... But even though you're not sure who, there are always people who will uplift you, and help you find that strength.

 

[Bobic]

Pre-face: I am a Registered Nurse who've worked for 4 years in a ward for affective illnesses, that is depression, bipolarity, personality disorders etc..

No, I don't find it perplexing at all. About half of the people who attempt suicide but fail and are hospitalized in this city end up on our ward and receive treatment for depressions, life crisis, bipolar disorder or some other form of illness that impairs cognition and lowers your mood. We also receive a lot of patients who are contemplating suicide but are yet to make an attempt. In more than 95 out of 100 cases we manage to treat these people and get them back to their daily life without them having to commit suicide as "a way out".

The truth is that most suicides are committed while suffering from some form of mental disorder (most usually depression) and that the mental disorder can be treated if help is sought. The person contemplating suicide can find joy and meaning in life again if they get the proper health and support. To me it is perplexing that we think this is alright, that seriously ill people should be allowed to commit suicide instead of encouraging them to seek support, help and treatment for their problems.

There are times when suicide is a viable alternative, terminal illness being the most obvious, but they are few and far between and most suicides today aren't committed by people in those situations. No, suicides are committed by otherwise healthy people who suffer a crisis or an illness that makes them unable to think straight. That's why they need help, not encouragement to take their own lives.

Ok, I know you've been quoted a lot, but I'm gonna do it again, because this is absolutely the answer to the thread question. And I'm going to add more evidence by saying that this perfectly reflects my experience of this from the other side. I suffered from depression and schizophrenia, I was suicidal, I ended up in a mental hospital, I received great help, I recovered, and now, for the first time, I can honestly say I enjoy life. I love my life, it's great, and it all would have been lost if my clouded judgement had won over.

So thank you Gethsemani for helping those in dark places.

 

[Olas]

The "right" for someone to commit "self-death" seems to me like some sort of naive libertarian ideal that only makes sense to someone with little to no understanding of how complex and often irrational humans can be. I've never been suicidal, but I have suffered from anxiety and depression, and still do to some extent, and I can attest that when you're in that dark place you lose perspective on things and tend to see your momentary feelings as something that will last forever.

While I'll acknowledge that some people have physical pain that can seem like a legitimate justification for suicide, I also know that most people who are happy and fulfilled will want to live, even if it means dealing with some pain. There's always a mental component to it, even if you have very real problems, the severity of those problems is always subject to mental interpretation.

At the very least I think we can probably all agree that if you're considering suicide, you should at least talk to a professional about it first and let them help you decide if it's a good idea. It's definitely not a decision that people should make alone.

 

[krazykidd]

In a world where people die by accident,are killed by others or disease, i have nothing against suicide. People who say it's selfish have no idea what they are talking about. It's more selfish to want someone to stay alive, suffering, so they can keep their conscience clear. Ultimately a person has every right to want to take matters in their own hand and it's their life to take.

That's all i'm saying on the matter.

 

[Nimzabaat]

Rational people don´t kill themselves. If you are having suicidal thoughts something is wrong with the wiring in your thinks and it is up to medical professionals to do their best to attempt to fix this problem and up to family and friends to support you through a possibly hard recovery process. No different than any other medical problem.

Actually it's the other way around, irrational people don't kill themselves. Irrational people believe that life will get better and good things will happen despite all the evidence. Sad truth is, the higher your IQ, the more likely you are to be suicidal. There have been a few teen geniuses who killed themselves simply because they "did the math" on life and found out it wasn't worth living past 14. It kind of makes you wonder if most of us are just not smart enough to realize that life is pointless.

An interesting article on the subject;

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-28753326

It should be noted that most comedians are pretty smart people.

 

[manic_depressive13]

To me, saying that the majority of suicidal people are grateful that they were prevented from committing suicide is like pointing out that the majority of women who are forced to go through with a pregnancy are grateful that they ended up having their child. I mean, I'm really glad that everything worked out for those people, but it's not a very compelling argument for why I shouldn't have the right to choose what I do with my body. It fails to account for people who were forced to suffer even greater hardships as a result of their denied autonomy, e.g. the women who undergo dangerous procedures to terminate their pregnancy, or the people who are forced to suffer agonising, drawn out deaths because they lacked the tools or knowledge to give themselves a quick death. Or, like someone I know, are kept alive in a vegetative state, because apparently even that's better than respecting someone's decision to die.