Some Fallout Enclave/Alien Musings (not NV related)

[Sephychu]

Welp, if you go back and read the whole thing you're quoting, you'll see I only disagreed with his claim that studying these psychological issues was in order to prepare for space colonization. My own position is that the same experiments, to find the same data, were for a different purpose: subjugating humanity.

Let me lay this out in my head, here you are, saying that what I said is exactly what you said;

Sorry to disappoint you, but yep. It is stated repeatedly in the original games. It's not an attempt at colonisation, it's a study to see what would happen.

Which is...exactly what I said.

While the vaults were themselves not attempts at colonising anything, they were studies of how people would react if they attempted to venture into space.

As I am saying, you disagree with this when Axolotl mentions it, but when I say it, you say it's exactly what you said.
Now that you've explained that you believe they were designed for human subjugation, I get it, but when you deny that it was for colonisation study, then say it was exactly what you said, I get a little confused.

This does however, return me to my original point, that the vaults being used to study for psychological effects on people so they could colonise other planets is indeed mentioned in the original games, more than once.

 

[Calbeck]

While the vaults were themselves not attempts at colonising anything, they were studies of how people would react if they attempted to venture into space.

What you said, and what I exactly agree with, is that the Vaults were "not an attempt at colonisation, it's a study to see what would happen".

"What would happen" having nothing to do with space travel or colonization. Yes, that is exactly what I was saying. -

This does however, return me to my original point, that the vaults being used to study for psychological effects on people so they could colonise other planets is indeed mentioned in the original games, more than once.

As I've noted before, there is exactly one case of anyone attempting any sort of colonization effort, and it appears in non-canon material (Van Buren). This was the Hermes-13, which was meant to be the first manned rocket to Mars, and which the Enclave began refitting for a one-ship colonization effort in the year before the War kicked off.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hermes-13

Even if the Hermes-13 were official, the Enclave themselves had no particular idea about where they would go once they got off-planet. There was no lunar base, nor any permanent space stations aside from various weapons platforms. Otherwise, the canon is very clear that no manned ship humanity ever built was capable of getting past lunar orbit.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Satellites_and_spacecraft

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/United_States_Space_Administration

 

[Sephychu]

major snippage

Look, this is a classic case of misunderstanding. At no point have either myself or Axolotl ever said that there was a working plan to go to space, but instead stated that the vaults were a study to see what would happen if they went to space, even though they couldn't. To study the psychological effects on a human mind under conditions likely to be present in space colonisation scenarios. This is the much alluded fact I keep referring to.

You agree, yes?

 

[Calbeck]

major snippage

Look, this is a classic case of misunderstanding. At no point have either myself or Axolotl ever said that there was a working plan to go to space, but instead stated that the vaults were a study to see what would happen if they went to space, even though they couldn't. To study the psychological effects on a human mind under conditions likely to be present in space colonisation scenarios. This is the much alluded fact I keep referring to.

You agree, yes?

Fair enough, though I still disagree that was the intent. However, I did go to the Fallout Wiki to find out more info on this, and had a talk with Ausir, the wiki founder.

Turns out that Tim Cain told Ausir that the Enclave's original backstory WAS that the Vaults had been built with exactly this goal in mind. In fact, the survivors of the Vaults were going to be taken along with the Enclave when it left the planet to go find another home. The Fallout Wiki therefore included this material as though it were factual.

Yet, none of that backstory actually made the cut for Fallout 2. It was apparently in part of the design documents which Interplay never released, so we only have Tim Cain's word via Ausir that the "space colonization" concept existed at all.

You'd've thought that if they were going to work it back in, it would appear as some sort of mention in the "Bloomfield Space Center" segment of "Van Buren" (which itself isn't canon until it's canon, if ever). But it isn't there, either, with only the one hasty attempt at refitting a single rocket in the year before the war kicks off. Meanwhile, Chris Avellone, who's at least as much a Fallout authority as Tim Cain, said long ago that the purpose of the Vaults was strictly as a social experiment and to see how well people re-colonized Earth.

The Fallout Wiki's since been updated by Ausir to point out that the "Enclave space program" is a reference to cut material which is not actually canon.

 

[Sephychu]

major snippage

Look, this is a classic case of misunderstanding. At no point have either myself or Axolotl ever said that there was a working plan to go to space, but instead stated that the vaults were a study to see what would happen if they went to space, even though they couldn't. To study the psychological effects on a human mind under conditions likely to be present in space colonisation scenarios. This is the much alluded fact I keep referring to.

You agree, yes?

Fair enough, though I still disagree that was the intent. However, I did go to the Fallout Wiki to find out more info on this, and had a talk with Ausir, the wiki founder.

Turns out that Tim Cain told Ausir that the Enclave's original backstory WAS that the Vaults had been built with exactly this goal in mind. In fact, the survivors of the Vaults were going to be taken along with the Enclave when it left the planet to go find another home. The Fallout Wiki therefore included this material as though it were factual.

Yet, none of that backstory actually made the cut for Fallout 2. It was apparently in part of the design documents which Interplay never released, so we only have Tim Cain's word via Ausir that the "space colonization" concept existed at all.

You'd've thought that if they were going to work it back in, it would appear as some sort of mention in the "Bloomfield Space Center" segment of "Van Buren" (which itself isn't canon until it's canon, if ever). But it isn't there, either, with only the one hasty attempt at refitting a single rocket in the year before the war kicks off. Meanwhile, Chris Avellone, who's at least as much a Fallout authority as Tim Cain, said long ago that the purpose of the Vaults was strictly as a social experiment and to see how well people re-colonized Earth.

The Fallout Wiki's since been updated by Ausir to point out that the "Enclave space program" is a reference to cut material which is not actually canon.

A'ight. I'm satisfied with that. Kudos to you for going out and doing the research.
Also, in all this, I didn't mean to pan your own musings at the top of the page, that's certainly some deep thinking there.

 

[Calbeck]

A'ight. I'm satisfied with that. Kudos to you for going out and doing the research. Also, in all this, I didn't mean to pan your own musings at the top of the page, that's certainly some deep thinking there.

Nah, s'cool. I've been on the Internet since the '80s, I can usually tell the diff between a troll and someone with a serious concern. -

 

[Nukarama]

Wow nice work Calbeck. It seems entirely plausible. It would kickass if it was true but unfortunately unless theres a Bethesda employee lurking around here no one can confirm.

 

[Nitpicker of the Wastes]

Items 3 and 4 suggest the aliens are engaged in a long-running war with some other alien race, and were interested in developing a "super soldier" in the same way as humans ended up creating "super mutants". They may have actually collaborated on these efforts.

And the dead Enclave officer and "The US doesn't bargain with aaaaliiiiieeeennnnnssssss...."

Aleins, aren't canon. Aliens should never be canon.

Are you from NMA? I swear you're the kind of awesome NMA spawn that this place needs. :3

 

[Calbeck]

And the dead Enclave officer and "The US doesn't bargain with aaaaliiiiieeeennnnnssssss...."

Sure, like anyone would tell HIM. -

 

[nuba km]

snip

wow that could lead to the most awesome ending of fallout just think about they leave more clues that show that you theory is correct then when they end the serious the enclave brethren awaken improved using alien technology then the wasteland and brotherhood defeat the enclave but then they find out the enclave brethren awaken and are going to "purify" the wasteland so you have to do missions for different groups of people so they all unite (including ghouls and super mutants) then you have an all out fight against the enclave brethren it would be awesome just think fighting enclave soldiers using alien shields and guns while writing buttercup horses imagine the fight *nerdgasm*

 

[Nitpicker of the Wastes]

Sure, like anyone would tell HIM. -

Senators were high up enough to know details about the Enclave; the Enclave had a Congress to go with the President.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Whilst it is possible for some members of the government to have gained cryogenic storage for use on people, the only example of such a thing in the old games is a soldier who was wounded being stored in vats of medical-gel and his being released from the storage caused him to disintegrate.

I also strongly doubt the link between aliens and the government, besides the governments of the world scavenging broken alien tech, that is.
I highly doubt we need to scavenge much alien tech in the Fallout universe, though, we seem to be heavily advanced in terms of technology and we apparently did a lot of that ourselves.

 

[Calbeck]

Sure, like anyone would tell HIM. -

Senators were high up enough to know details about the Enclave; the Enclave had a Congress to go with the President.

Mm, nope. The Enclave was a shadow government, not an official organization that someone would get automatic access to just because they got elected. Heck, Senators don't even find out what's talked about in closed-door sessions of the Intelligence Committee unless they're either on the Committee or have an in with someone who is.

We have no idea how much of the Legislative Branch was in on the Enclave; certainly not all of it. It was far more prevalent at the Executive level, which makes sense because you need fewer people to authorize what you're doing in any given department.

 

[Calbeck]

Whilst it is possible for some members of the government to have gained cryogenic storage for use on people, the only example of such a thing in the old games is a soldier who was wounded being stored in vats of medical-gel and his being released from the storage caused him to disintegrate.

I also strongly doubt the link between aliens and the government, besides the governments of the world scavenging broken alien tech, that is.
I highly doubt we need to scavenge much alien tech in the Fallout universe, though, we seem to be heavily advanced in terms of technology and we apparently did a lot of that ourselves.

Excellent points.

 

[Axolotl]

Aleins, aren't canon. Aliens should never be canon.

Are you from NMA? I swear you're the kind of awesome NMA spawn that this place needs. :3

No, but I do lurk the codex (bad place).

 

[Thedayrecker]

What are you smoking? [/over-used saying for a lack of a credible comeback]

OT: I can't find any flaw in your thinking..... then again it's 3 AM where I live and I'm dead tired.....

 

[Calbeck]

the aliens never triggered the nuclear war. china fired the nukes of its own accord. this is evident by a conversation by president richardson "the reds fired on us, and we were winning too".

Sure, Richardson says the Chinese fired on the US first. Yet, there's nothing anywhere saying why the Chinese fired in the first place. An alien shot into Beijing would certainly do it, since they would have no way of knowing the attack did not come from the US.

if you actually take the time to read/listen to the captive logs, the aliens are not the enclave's friend

More appropriately, the aliens are not ANYONE'S friends. Then again, allies are very often enemies who simply have a mutual goal in mind, and the most interesting alliances are the ones where each partner is simultaneously trying to put an unnoticed dagger into the back of their "friend". -

 

[The Warden]

Before I found out about the aliens, I always thought the people behind the Vaults were stupid or incredibly twisted.