Someone just called me a dumbass!: How not to fly into a rage over every internet argument.

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chaos order

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Jan 27, 2010
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i completely agree with you. i always tread carefully when i make an argument, so as to make my points clear, and therefore they cannot be misunderstood. and i never say one persons point or opinion is stupid just explain why i dont agree and move on. un fortunately i find my self with out much debate since i make myself sound completely neutral
 

bojac6

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Oct 15, 2009
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- An argument is a collected series of statements to establish a definite proposition. Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
- No it isn't

Penny for the reference.


Anyways, I just wanted to make a comment on the "Learn to use "In my opinion"" part of your argument. I tend to find that phrase misused, redundant or silly. It's misused when the person saying it is using the phrase to couch fact as opinion, thereby rendering his position unassailable (e.g. "In my opinion, the Earth is flat. That is my opinion and it is offensive for you to say I'm wrong, because opinions are never wrong"). This is only valid if you do not accept that there are basic facts about the world and dissolves into the whole "well, I have no proof you're not imaginary and everything I see is a lie" type of argument that is, frankly, annoying and accomplishes nothing.
It's redundant when the person uses it when they are expressing an obvious opinion. "In my opinion, Nike is better than Adidas." Here you're making a statement of preference that anyone is welcome to attack, but instead of defending the position with facts, you defend it by saying it's your opinion. Just the statement "Nike is better than Adidas" leaves you open to personal attacks as well, because it's just a bold statement that can only be countered with "No, Adidas is better than Nike." A much better way to frame the argument than "In my opinion" would be to say "Nike is better than Adidas because their shoes have stronger insoles that wear less with age, so they last longer." Now there is a factual statement, and the argument can take two forms. Either your fact is wrong or your fact is irrelevant. In this example, your fact being wrong would be something like, "The insoles last longer during trials using the X test, but the Y test is a more realistic measure of wear in a shoe" and now you debate the merits of how this is determined. The irrelevant argument would be something like "They may have stronger insoles, but Nike uses slave labor while Adidas does not, and that makes Adidas the better company to support" and now you debate which argument is more relevant to the Nike versus Adidas debate. For the record, I made this example up as something simple and I have little knowledge or opinion about Nike or Adidas.

Finally, "In my opinion" is used to hide silly arguments. I don't mean silly as in funny, but silly as in bizarre, offensive, or "way out there." Racist opinions, conspiracy theories, that sort of thing. You're putting a whole world view into a simple sentence that you feel is unpopular or easily attacked and want to avoid needing to defend it. This is very similar to misusing the phrase to defend facts, but you are actually stating an opinion this time. It's a fine distinction, but worth saying.

This is why I find that phrase useless and tend to immediately look down on people who use that phrase often. Frankly, if disagreeing with a person by saying "You're wrong, here's why" is offensive but saying "In my opinion, you're wrong, here's why" is not offensive, it's not the fault of the person saying "you're wrong." The person being disagreed with should just grow a thicker skin and focus on why there is a disagreement, not take it so personally that somebody dares to put forth a counter.

The problem isn't how you respond to the person calling you a dumbass, the problem is the person calling you a dumbass
 

Blueruler182

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May 21, 2010
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I already have the perfect system. Doesn't matter how tired I am, the second someone makes a stupid joke towards me my brain goes into overdrive and I tear them apart. Happened with a coworker the other day. The only reason we're not on bad terms is because she was joking so I just did enough to show her who's boss.
 

Ironic Pirate

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bojac6 said:
- An argument is a collected series of statements to establish a definite proposition. Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
- No it isn't

Penny for the reference.


Anyways, I just wanted to make a comment on the "Learn to use "In my opinion"" part of your argument. I tend to find that phrase misused, redundant or silly. It's misused when the person saying it is using the phrase to couch fact as opinion, thereby rendering his position unassailable (e.g. "In my opinion, the Earth is flat. That is my opinion and it is offensive for you to say I'm wrong, because opinions are never wrong"). This is only valid if you do not accept that there are basic facts about the world and dissolves into the whole "well, I have no proof you're not imaginary and everything I see is a lie" type of argument that is, frankly, annoying and accomplishes nothing.
It's redundant when the person uses it when they are expressing an obvious opinion. "In my opinion, Nike is better than Adidas." Here you're making a statement of preference that anyone is welcome to attack, but instead of defending the position with facts, you defend it by saying it's your opinion. Just the statement "Nike is better than Adidas" leaves you open to personal attacks as well, because it's just a bold statement that can only be countered with "No, Adidas is better than Nike." A much better way to frame the argument than "In my opinion" would be to say "Nike is better than Adidas because their shoes have stronger insoles that wear less with age, so they last longer." Now there is a factual statement, and the argument can take two forms. Either your fact is wrong or your fact is irrelevant. In this example, your fact being wrong would be something like, "The insoles last longer during trials using the X test, but the Y test is a more realistic measure of wear in a shoe" and now you debate the merits of how this is determined. The irrelevant argument would be something like "They may have stronger insoles, but Nike uses slave labor while Adidas does not, and that makes Adidas the better company to support" and now you debate which argument is more relevant to the Nike versus Adidas debate. For the record, I made this example up as something simple and I have little knowledge or opinion about Nike or Adidas.

Finally, "In my opinion" is used to hide silly arguments. I don't mean silly as in funny, but silly as in bizarre, offensive, or "way out there." Racist opinions, conspiracy theories, that sort of thing. You're putting a whole world view into a simple sentence that you feel is unpopular or easily attacked and want to avoid needing to defend it. This is very similar to misusing the phrase to defend facts, but you are actually stating an opinion this time. It's a fine distinction, but worth saying.

This is why I find that phrase useless and tend to immediately look down on people who use that phrase often. Frankly, if disagreeing with a person by saying "You're wrong, here's why" is offensive but saying "In my opinion, you're wrong, here's why" is not offensive, it's not the fault of the person saying "you're wrong." The person being disagreed with should just grow a thicker skin and focus on why there is a disagreement, not take it so personally that somebody dares to put forth a counter.

The problem isn't how you respond to the person calling you a dumbass, the problem is the person calling you a dumbass
When used poorly, it can be like that.

Kinda like a taser, really. Bad if used wrong, but can also help defuse a situation.

Example! On GameFAQs, there was a thread about whether r1 or r2 was the better shoot button.

One person (me!) said that R1 was better because blah blah blah. Another person (this was GameFAQs, remember) yelled at him for saying that his opinion was fact, and went on and on about it. The first person wished he had used in my opinion.

Now again, using it to back out of a bad situation is stupid, but sometimes it's good to stick it in front of whatever the hell else you're saying. Just in case.
 

GrinningManiac

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Jun 11, 2009
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and remember, folks...



Usually, I find that when you use the sort of stuff Pirate suggests (politely pointing the holes in their argument, and ignoring insults) you can actually "defuse" a troll. I made at least 2 friends out of defused trolls

Not to be confused with "diffused" trolls, which is a messy business
 

TheBaron87

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Jul 12, 2010
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Blegh, I thought this was going to be a lesson in how to stop being such a baby and grow some skin, but it's more etiquette crap, as usual.

Can't we actually get some decent, heated arguments and good-natured jabbing going on without people pissing themselves and calling the moderators to play babysitter?

Here's a much better guide to how to handle arguments on the internet:

Here's the whole thing.

Instead of trying to control what everyone else says, society as a whole really needs to grow up and learn to accept criticism, as in valid statements about the flaws in another individual. To correct a problem, you must first be aware of it. Nobody is perfect. Usually, when a person takes time out of their day to let you know you're being stupid, it's because they have at least a faint sliver of hope that YOU'LL LISTEN, REFLECT ON IT, AND STOP DOING WHATEVER IT WAS THAT MADE YOU LOOK STUPID. If they thought you were hopeless, why would they waste their time? Becoming a better person doesn't just mean building on your strengths, it also means cutting down on your flaws. Stop taking negative advice as personal attacks.

Of course, that's different from trolls and thoughtless flamers. IGNORE THEM. These people crave attention. They get more attention by being controversial than constructive. Whether it's love or hate, they just want to be noticed. If you ignore them, your site doesn't provide what they want, and they lose interest. People just need to learn the difference between thoughtless flaming and people telling you what you don't want to hear. All too often, I see people moderated for saying a difficult truth, accused of throwing hate for the sake of hate, just because people didn't want to deal with what they were saying.
 

mjc0961

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Nov 30, 2009
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Ironic Pirate said:
Learn to use "In my opinion..." well, and IMO doesn't count, it sounds like a cheap brand of lawnmower parts.
I've personally always thought that doing that is more condescending than anything else. It comes off as "I think you are too stupid to discern facts from opinions, therefore I will label everything for you as if this was kindergarten." Everyone should know the difference, and the only time I think someone's trying to pass their opinions off as fact is when they say something like "Pizza is the best food ever and if you disagree you need to get your head examined." Then it's time to bring them back to reality. However, if it's just "pizza is the best food ever", that's obviously just their opinion and there's no need for them to be condescending by stating the obvious.

The rest is a good read though, and I agree with the whole blurb about the use of "retarded" as well.
 

Ironic Pirate

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May 21, 2009
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mjc0961 said:
Ironic Pirate said:
Learn to use "In my opinion..." well, and IMO doesn't count, it sounds like a cheap brand of lawnmower parts.
I've personally always thought that doing that is more condescending than anything else. It comes off as "I think you are too stupid to discern facts from opinions, therefore I will label everything for you as if this was kindergarten." Everyone should know the difference, and the only time I think someone's trying to pass their opinions off as fact is when they say something like "Pizza is the best food ever and if you disagree you need to get your head examined." Then it's time to bring them back to reality. However, if it's just "pizza is the best food ever", that's obviously just their opinion and there's no need for them to be condescending by stating the obvious.

The rest is a good read though, and I agree with the whole blurb about the use of "retarded" as well.
I meant as more to defuse someone who's really angry over something, but I can see what you're saying.

I suppose I meant to write something along the lines of, "Well, I think it is because..." a statement designed to show that that's just what you think, and that it's certainly not the "right" answer.

Say you're talking about music. Saying "Kicking Puppies is the best band ever" might get you screamed at by Bloodthirsty Kitten fans, whereas, "I like Kicking Puppies because of they're anti-establishment lyrics, and the lead singer really sounds like a dachshund" will either get discussion going about singers for various bands, or get other people agreeing. Fans of other bands may not like that style, but they can see why someone would and don't feel the need to scream at them.

You make a good point though, so I'll change it to "I think" or "I like x because...
 

Ironic Pirate

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TheBaron87 said:
Yes, but the mods allow arguments and criticism, just not baseless insults or use of racial/sexual slurs.

And if you're calling people things like that, you probably aren't giving constructive criticism. Which, if I read your post correctly (I am tired) is what you said we're losing. While it may create an atmosphere were it seems like you can't contradict what people are saying, I think this thread is actually a good example of what's allowed. Several people, (including you) had complaints or other problems with what I said, and expressed those fews without screaming insults and throwing a hissy fit.

I then responded to some of them, and lo there was discussion. If there was no moderation, that would still happen, but there would be people flaming each other in the midst of it, and those with valid points wouldn't suddenly be able to express their views better.
 

manaman

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D_987 said:
I can't be bothered to go on, but needless to say I find this post to be heavily inaccurate. Debate is fine; it's the whole purpose of a forum - you compare opinions, and within that comparision there will, inevitably, be "argument"; as people discuss various ideas.
I wanted to say that I agree nearly completely with you. I often engage in discussion on these forums, debating topics, but I will just as quickly stop responding when the discussion turns to an argument, or the other parts starts to argue in circles. You should really just link to the orginal forum [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_%28Roman%29]. I think it would help people understand what the purpose is.

I also wanted to say that I agree list threads are pretty damned pointless.
TheBaron87 said:
Blegh, I thought this was going to be a lesson in how to stop being such a baby and grow some skin, but it's more etiquette crap, as usual.

Can't we actually get some decent, heated arguments and good-natured jabbing going on without people pissing themselves and calling the moderators to play babysitter?

*snipped video*

Instead of trying to control what everyone else says, society as a whole really needs to grow up and learn to accept criticism, as in valid statements about the flaws in another individual. To correct a problem, you must first be aware of it. Nobody is perfect. Usually, when a person takes time out of their day to let you know you're being stupid, it's because they have at least a faint sliver of hope that YOU'LL LISTEN, REFLECT ON IT, AND STOP DOING WHATEVER IT WAS THAT MADE YOU LOOK STUPID. If they thought you were hopeless, why would they waste their time? Becoming a better person doesn't just mean building on your strengths, it also means cutting down on your flaws. Stop taking negative advice as personal attacks.
While people do need some thicker skin, pretending that name calling in response to their argument is a valid form of debate is ridiculous. It does nothing to further discussion on a subject and has quite the opposite effect. These forums try to promote discussion, which is why they punish personal attacks.
 

Nouw

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Mar 18, 2009
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I read it and enjoyed it but there can't be a guide to arguing. Besides, some classic Duke Nukem Harassment should work.
 

Icehearted

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"You can't fix stupid" -Ron White

If I'm in a dispute with anyone on a message board it's usually because one of us doesn't have their facts straight. If my facts are off, I'm actually pretty quick to admit fault and even occasionally thank them for schooling me. On the other hand, If I make a claim I know to be a fact to the best of my ability and support said facts with tangible proof, and people still want to argue about it, I generally just assume they're trolls, immature, intellectually challenged, or all of these things.

What bugs me are when I've proven I'm correct and they still argue the facts. I have to believe they're trolling, and I usually just play along at that point or ignore them.

I just think of the wisdom of Mr. White and leave it at that.
 

Nomanslander

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Feb 21, 2009
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Remind yourself that if you do, you'll be in a series need for a hug then...=)

That always stops me from going off the deep end.

Icehearted said:
"You can't fix stupid" -Ron White
Actually, you kinda can. If you convince someone that they're stupid, that's when people start to think and decide to change things...=P