Sony, Pre-owned games and DRM

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Golden Hawk

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Jan 30, 2011
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So Sony is wanting to bring about passcodes to prevent gamers from using pre-owned games through PSN. This way, only the original buyer can access the online components of the game...

Uh, would you like to jump into the coffin now Sony? I'll happily bring the hammer and nails

But anyway, what's your stance on pre-owned games Escapist? Personally it doesn't bother me, but I'm a uni student and can't often afford new copies...

And in regards to this new form of DRM, think it'll work?

http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+to+Limit+Online+Access+for+Used+Gamers+with+PSN+Pass/article22106.htm

http://smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Online/N6B7F8S5
 

CM156_v1legacy

Revelation 9:6
Mar 23, 2011
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Golden Hawk said:
But anyway, what's your stance on pre-owned games Escapist?
All in favor of them.

At least in the states, we have The First Sale Doctrine which protects those who wish to resell goods they have.

Secondly, we?ve had a used market for all forms of media (Books, movies, ect), and those industries are still around.

Finally, it?s the only way to get some games. Some games are just simply not available new anymore
 

Jkudo

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Aug 17, 2010
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Honestly if dev studios werent being closed down because their game didnt sell enough, layoffs werent routine and if we got more new ip's and more genres because people didnt think only a few types of games were profitable, then i would be in favor of used games. Used movies arent a great comparison because of the cinema thing and books are relatively inexpensive to produce. Sure buying old games used is fine, but those games wouldn't be affected by an online pass. I think all gamers should wait till they can afford to buy new. Digital download will probably be better for the industry( if they can get pricing right), but i enjoy having a hard copy.
 

RThaiRThai

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Jan 13, 2010
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Sorry if this is a little off topic, though I think it's still related.

I'd be interested in seeing what would happen to the game industry if copyright were just simply eliminated. The movie industry as well, to a lesser extent.

It's already pretty likely that writers and musicians will be fine; they're getting screwed by the publishing companies as it is, and writing and music were around long before copyright. They have their ways of making a living.

Video games and movies are expensive to produce though; the triple A ones, anyway. There are already a lot of good movies online, so I have hope that they will find a way.

While there are games online, it seems like a trickier situation. Software in general will be okay; software is created because there is a need for it. The programming I'm doing isn't going to be sold to customers; it's being written because the company needs these programs. The free software movement is also doing a good job, and they've found ways of making a living.

I suspect the video game industry would find a way if suddenly people could share games without necessarily having to pay, though it would probably also be chaos for a while. On the other hand, maybe it would be terrible terrible disaster.

Regarding pre-owned games though, I don't think it should be stopped. But if people want to support the developer, they should be aware that buying a game pre-owned won't help; buy it new. It's more legal than piracy, but it's not particularly better. I would hope that the people who pirate and buy pre-owned are doing it because they can't afford new games, or because they have an ethical issue against DRM. If they can afford it, they should support the developers.
 

DustyDrB

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Jan 19, 2010
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The pre-owned market is a huge bonus of console gaming, so I never want to see it die. This PSN Pass thing will have little effect on me. The only game I've played over the PSN is Marvel vs Capcom 3. And I've never purchased DLC from the PSN (though I have from the Xbox Live Marketplace. I just don't like the PSN interface).
 

Total LOLige

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I'm ok with it. Developers can still get money because game shops are likely to buy stock from them with the money they get from re selling pre owned games. Plus you shouldn't have to pay for online on pre owned games because they aren't new, they're going to have scratches and be in worse condition.
 

Katana314

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FOR developers:
The way most games are run now, with the disc only acting as a form of entitlement rather than the actual product being sold (ie, access to online services and updates, downloadable games, etc) and no method of "degradation" it only sort of makes sense to have them treated as a service, not a good. This is something wishy-washy we've been fighting with a long time because the traditional sale model just ceases to work here.

AGAINST developers:
...however, if developers want to have their products treated like a service, they need to treat them like a service. These days when a game drops off the face of the map a month after release, is never patched and no one can find support for it; not to mention the $50 price tag completely unfit for any "service-based" model it's supposed to be (and pushing away potential gamers) makes me less sympathetic on their end. They need to realize when they put a product out, they need to give the consumer some level of rights if they want to take some away. This is a system of trade. (For instance: Massive DRM, download anywhere. Or: Online payments, but continued technical support)

I'm for them doing this, but they need to in turn do something to show people they're not dicks trying to be oppressive or anything.
 

Chaos James

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May 27, 2011
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I buy used games mainly because A: I lack money and B: the games I buy aren't sold in stores anymore (PS2 era and back, maybe a few Gamecube games).

Mainly I shop via the bargain bin at stores, because its hard for me to put more then $20 towards a game with limited income. Sometimes I do find really good deals though (FF Dissidia was in the bargain bin for $25 bucks) other times I do turn to the actual shelves though when I truly want a game (KH:BbS and Pkmn:SoulSilver).

I have also used the prepaid cards to purchase PS1 classics and PSP games via the PSN since those cards are also around $20's, but buying online is a double-edged sword (fills up my memory stick and I can't trade them with my friends, but I don't need to switch out Discs as much).

My biggest issue with online and the proposed limiting of online functions and whatnot is because should I either get bored of the game or want to lend games to my friends (or vice-versa) I can't because they are locked to my account.

Also, this would wreck havoc on playing games with your friends. I don't want my buddy to have to drag his Xbox everywhere because his Xbox is the only one that can play, say, Halo:Reach online (even worse is its my brother who I borrow Reach from, so I'd need HIS Xbox, which would be a bigger pain.)

Well, I think I went in circles or just talked off-topic, sorry if this isn't really clear, I've had a long day, lol.
 

Epona

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Jun 24, 2011
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It will work if gamers don't start standing up for themselves and in the end it will destroy the used market, just like it did for PC games.

It blows my mind to see people watching the industry grow and then complain that piracy and used games are killing it. Damn, how brainwashed can people be?
 

Epona

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Dexter111 said:
It is inevitable, personally I thought they are going to wait with implementing it till the next console generation rolls around... apparently they either don't want to wait that long or want to ease people into it.

Both the console distributors and the developers are losing money over those "used sales" as you call them (which is more like robbing both the devs/publishers and gamers in my eyes... not the actual resale of games to say friends or on eBay but what GameStop, WalMart and other big retail chains are doing)... you can struggle against it all you want but it will be commonplace in 5 years time (like it was/is on PC for several years).
They aren't losing sales, it's BS like this that is going to allow them to kill the used console game market and when it's gone the industry will shrink because people can't afford $60 for every game they buy.

This losing sales argument comes down to: "Everyone would buy new if they didn't have a choice". Not only is that anti-consumer, it's also false.
 

mr_major

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Jun 14, 2011
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Well Personally I have to say that I am against this although I don't own a playstation system. But I do have to say that if it wasn't for used games I wouldn't have ever discovered the Elder Scrolls series since I will not spend $50-$60 dollars on a game I know nothing about and while I may take some flak for the Elder Scrolls content before I owned my 360 I was a heavy Nintendo Fanboy (I grew up in a household that only bought one system in a generation so i grew up nintendo), The only reason I got a 360 was because Fallout 3 wasn't available on the Wii and from college I wanted to play it and I wasn't about to spend $400 just to play one game so I grabbed alot of used games and Oblivion is the only one that I still own from the original set. In fact it was because of this that I pre-ordered a copy of skyrim the first week they were available to pre-order and I plan to also pre-order a collectors edition for my personal collection. I also took the time to hunt down a copy of Morrowind for the original Xbox because I enjoyed Oblivion and my computer at the time couldn't run it.

So I guess the biggest question is who is this targeting since I could care less about online components for most games, unless they are computer games, I am not the best judge.

tl;dr: I discovered one of my favorite series through a used game but I don't play most games online
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Mar 23, 2011
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Dexter111 said:
It is inevitable, personally I thought they are going to wait with implementing it till the next console generation rolls around... apparently they either don't want to wait that long or want to ease people into it.

Both the console distributors and the developers are losing money over those "used sales" as you call them (which is more like robbing both the devs/publishers and gamers in my eyes... not the actual resale of games to say friends or on eBay but what GameStop, WalMart and other big retail chains are doing)... you can struggle against it all you want but it will be commonplace in 5 years time (like it was/is on PC for several years).
Allright. Humor me this. What would YOU do about it?

I don't buy the whole "Robbing the industry" statement. What about movie rentals? Did studios get money with each rental? What about libraries? Do book publsihers get money with each check-out? What about art galeries? Do artists get money with resale of their paintings?

The answer? No. They do not. Where were you when blockbuster video was still around? Were you protesting THEM? The industry isn't going anywhere. How long have we had the printing press? People have been giving books to friends or people have sold them second hand. And yet we still have books.

So, again, what would you do about used sales and Gamestop?
 

Epona

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Well that's what they WANT to do, the Publishers/Devs don't get any money from games sold by a third party bypassing the altogether, so they couldn't care any less about the people that do so because they aren't their customers.
I define customers as those who are using their product.

What is even more perplexing for me is that apparently a lot of people will buy "used" at something like 55$ a few days after a games release when the new game is 60$ just cause some guy behind a counter was instructed to say things like "Don't you like saving money?" or "Are you sure you don't want to get a used copy, it'll be 5$ less." etc.
That's true but disliking Gamestops practices doesn't mean you have to get in bed with the publishers. Publisher who don't want you to be able to recoup your costs if you buy something that sucks. Publishers don't want stores to give refunds on software and they also don't want you recovering $20 from Gamestop.

Can't you just not jump in bed with either Gamestop or the publishers?

Personally if I buy a game I want to support said Developer/Publisher and want to practice my right of "voting with my wallet" saying "I want more of this"... that vote is also lost buying from a 3rd party and them being the only ones majorly profiting from it even though they weren't involved in the development of the game in any way or form.
Voting with your wallet becomes less powerful when you can't buy it used anymore.

I don't think you understand how it works so I'll explain it. Every used game was already sold NEW so the publisher already got their money. The 3rd party bought the game from the person who bought it new so the 3rd party did put money into that copy of the game and if they sell it they deserve some, all or a profit back from it. You don't think the publishers are selling merely at cost do you? No! Does the publisher start giving out free copies of a game once they've made their money back? No!

That's how business works and I don't know why it's ok for publishers to make hella profits but not for Gamestop too.

Hell, people who CHOOSE to sell games to Gamestop that they bought NEW know that Gamestop is going to give them crap for their game and then sell it for alot more. They do it anyway because getting back $20 means the game really only cost them $40. How many people wouldn't buy the game new at all if they knew they couldn't recoup some of the cost?

Not to forget that there are dozens of other forms of "buying/selling used" like eBay or similar sites that will probably be both cheaper to buy and getting a better price selling (and no big 3rd party company being behind it leeching off the profits). Thank both those parasitic companies and people making stupid purchasing decisions for this, the console manufacturers and publishers are only trying to protect their interests with almost 50% of the total game sales of GameStop being "used" now and it being a over 2 billion $ business: http://venturebeat.com/2010/08/19/game-retailer-gamestop-misses-earnings-target-despite-huge-used-game-sales/
Hating Gamestop doesn't make you look objective.

The "used sales" argument doesn't come down to "everyone would buy new if they didn't have a choice" but to "we aren't getting any money from this, even if less people get the game but we get more money it's good."... Regardless of all that, it will come as I've said often before, if you want it or not xD
They aren't entitled to money from used sales.

Let's be honest here, what the publishers would like is to be able to own YOUR game. That's right, you bought it but they still like to pretend that they can control what happens to it and if you resell it, they want some of the money. They aren't entitled to it!

That's how greedy the game industry has become. It's like a bank robber claiming he/she is entitled to the money in the bank. He/she isn't entitled to the money because IT BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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do you think that used game sales is why there seems to be less of a PC section in game stores?