Sony's Not Ready For User-Made Videos

[Fractral]

Clearly the LP is free advertising for Nintendo, or anyone, is false. If it were advertising it would spur on sales. Do you see Nintendo getting a big sales boost from LP? There is a good argument to be made that the LP that shows you the entire game puts a negative effect on game sales since you no longer have incentive to get the game.

I've seen one of my friends play through the whole metal gear series (the ps2 ones anyway) several times and it looked fun so I bought it later for ps3.

And Why didn't you buy it for the PS2? Because you already watched it a half dozen times. You proved my point.

I am sorry but that is just too stupid. You think someone wouldn't buy a game because they had WATCHED it several times? There are several games I have ONLY bought because I watched them online. Your logic is soooo flawed. Do you play games?

I'm sorry but your logic is completely missing. I have a wife who's a gamer who doesn't want to watch me play certain games because seeing the story played out removes the incentive to actually play the game herself. You're going to need to have better logic then a simple ad hom if you want to prove your point.

So because one person feels that way everyone does?
As far as I know there has been no research into how let's plays affect sales of games so quite frankly any statements anyone can make are either pure conjecture or based off very few examples and are therefore inherently untrustworthy. If you can find some evidence that isn't just an example from your experience to back up your suggestion, then maybe you're on to something.

 

[Omnicrom]

So I guess Yahtzee is going to retire right?

 

[medv4380]

Clearly the LP is free advertising for Nintendo, or anyone, is false. If it were advertising it would spur on sales. Do you see Nintendo getting a big sales boost from LP? There is a good argument to be made that the LP that shows you the entire game puts a negative effect on game sales since you no longer have incentive to get the game.

I've seen one of my friends play through the whole metal gear series (the ps2 ones anyway) several times and it looked fun so I bought it later for ps3.

And Why didn't you buy it for the PS2? Because you already watched it a half dozen times. You proved my point.

I am sorry but that is just too stupid. You think someone wouldn't buy a game because they had WATCHED it several times? There are several games I have ONLY bought because I watched them online. Your logic is soooo flawed. Do you play games?

I'm sorry but your logic is completely missing. I have a wife who's a gamer who doesn't want to watch me play certain games because seeing the story played out removes the incentive to actually play the game herself. You're going to need to have better logic then a simple ad hom if you want to prove your point.

No, you realize your argument is weak and so focused on only the barely ad hominem instead of the real argument. Which is that I have bought several games, like Minecraft, Waking Earth, and others only after seeing them played on Youtube yet I have never decided not to purchase a game because I had already seen it on Youtube. I will grant you that a very, very few games can be "ruined" by watching the whole thing through but nearly all games are enjoyed through playing them, not watching them. It is the defining difference between games and movies or TV. This seems so obvious to me. Do you really believe that is not true or do have some other axe to grind?

You're the one who has an argument only supported by ignoring what's been presented, and an ad hom. You should probably read back to my first post if you wish to actually debate.

First, can you even make a Minecraft Movie video, or do you not understand the difference between "Hey look at this thing I did in Minecraft" vs "Batman Arkham City 'The Move'". One is nice to share and not worthy of ad revenue, and the other is clearly an act of piracy to get money off of someone elses work. As for Waking Earth are you sure you didn't mean Waking Mars. If so my counter involving Minecraft still applies. You could spoil the ending, but 99% of the game is game play with no final boss, and little to no story what so ever.

Most if not all triple a titles can, and are spoiled by the "lets play" movie nonsense. If you wish to skirt around my argument, and use things like shoe horned in multi-player I'll just call you out on the clear suppressing the evidence fallacy that your argument is clearly based on.

Nintendo and myself clearly have no issue with the cutsy little "look at what I can do" videos. However, when you're going so far as making a Legend of Zelda "The Movie" you've gone too far. What Nintendo has done will hamper them, and they are allowing you to still do the other. It's the profit motive that creates "The Movie" LPs, and those people havn't earned it.

 

[Darth_Payn]

"you don't have to get anything, guys."

Indeed. I have a PS2 and X360 and I am pretty sure I am just going to skip this generation of consoles and turn my focus on PC for a while.

Totally agreed, nothing about the next console generation has me stoked and while everyone is clapping each other on the back and laughing at how Sony rules and MS drools, I am just thinking. The PS4 STILL looks shit. Everyone was shitting on the PS4 on reveal and saying they were holding out for the now unfolded xbone. Now that the xbone is the runt of the litter, all of a sudden wii-u and ps4 are looking great.

So congrats guys, we have successfully lowered our standards.

So it's all the more poignant Yahtzee said this:

You can choose not to play, because it's the only way to win.

WarGames shout out FTW! Watching yesterday's E3 footage and catching up with the news helps me feel a little better, but not by much.

 

[Mahoshonen]

Clearly the LP is free advertising for Nintendo, or anyone, is false. If it were advertising it would spur on sales. Do you see Nintendo getting a big sales boost from LP? There is a good argument to be made that the LP that shows you the entire game puts a negative effect on game sales since you no longer have incentive to get the game.

I've seen one of my friends play through the whole metal gear series (the ps2 ones anyway) several times and it looked fun so I bought it later for ps3.

And Why didn't you buy it for the PS2? Because you already watched it a half dozen times. You proved my point.

I am sorry but that is just too stupid. You think someone wouldn't buy a game because they had WATCHED it several times? There are several games I have ONLY bought because I watched them online. Your logic is soooo flawed. Do you play games?

I'm sorry but your logic is completely missing. I have a wife who's a gamer who doesn't want to watch me play certain games because seeing the story played out removes the incentive to actually play the game herself. You're going to need to have better logic then a simple ad hom if you want to prove your point.

No, you realize your argument is weak and so focused on only the barely ad hominem instead of the real argument. Which is that I have bought several games, like Minecraft, Waking Earth, and others only after seeing them played on Youtube yet I have never decided not to purchase a game because I had already seen it on Youtube. I will grant you that a very, very few games can be "ruined" by watching the whole thing through but nearly all games are enjoyed through playing them, not watching them. It is the defining difference between games and movies or TV. This seems so obvious to me. Do you really believe that is not true or do have some other axe to grind?

Complete idocy that I can't believe I just read and won't force anyone else to read again.

Who brought up making "Minecraft: The Movie?" That's not what an LP is. Only the worst 'retsppurae' garbage even attempts to be a movie version of a game. You are changing the debate in such a crucial way that to me you seem only intent on winning the argument, rather than coming to any sort of understanding.

I can only conclude that either your a troll, or that you have a basic understanding of what an LP is. Despite the fact that you resorte to essentially saying 'no, u', I'll be generous and assume the later and point you to what I think are standout examples of LPs doing what others and I see them as:

Mega Man II [http://lparchive.org/Mega-Man-2-(by-Simply-Simon)] I like this LP because it gives the game the credit it deserves while not whitewashing the few flaws present.
Europa Universalis III [http://lparchive.org/Europa-Universalis-III-Divine-Wind/] This is an LP that focuses on demonstrating how to play a complex Grand Strategy game. While I can' give evidence that these type of LPs have been a boon for a niche market, they have convinced me to get into them so there's that.
Dwarf Fortress: Boatmurdered [http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/] On the other hand, I fairly positive this LP made many folks aware of Dwarf Fortress. (It was mentioned in the New York Times. The New York Times!)
Sonic 2006 [http://lparchive.org/Sonic-The-Hedgehog-2006/] Ever wanted to know why a bad game is bad but don't want to put yourself through playing it? LPs are a good compromise, and highlight Yahtzee's point that LPs are as much a critique as a work on their own.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Once again, Yahtzee casually forces a mental image in my mind that is both terrifying and hilarious.

As for the LP potential of the share button, I suspect there will remain a consistent need and application of capture cards and the like, while the button goes mostly unused except by the spoiling community and the occasional screen grab. Seeing as the community is already in place, however, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does implement some kind of authorial editing into it. Seems like a wasted opportunity if they don't, but that's entirely up to them to weigh that choice. It's not like the LP community will just give up entirely.

 

[l3o2828]

Clearly the LP is free advertising for Nintendo, or anyone, is false. If it were advertising it would spur on sales. Do you see Nintendo getting a big sales boost from LP? There is a good argument to be made that the LP that shows you the entire game puts a negative effect on game sales since you no longer have incentive to get the game.

I've seen one of my friends play through the whole metal gear series (the ps2 ones anyway) several times and it looked fun so I bought it later for ps3.

And Why didn't you buy it for the PS2? Because you already watched it a half dozen times. You proved my point.

I am sorry but that is just too stupid. You think someone wouldn't buy a game because they had WATCHED it several times? There are several games I have ONLY bought because I watched them online. Your logic is soooo flawed. Do you play games?

I'm sorry but your logic is completely missing. I have a wife who's a gamer who doesn't want to watch me play certain games because seeing the story played out removes the incentive to actually play the game herself. You're going to need to have better logic then a simple ad hom if you want to prove your point.

Sorry, but in my case, LPs have been the sole reason i have tried several games.
Incluiding Final Fantasy X, Illbleed, and most Suikoden Games.

 

[DataSnake]

There is a good argument to be made that the LP that shows you the entire game puts a negative effect on game sales since you no longer have incentive to get the game.

If seeing a game in action discourages people from buying it, that's usually a sign that it's kind of a shitty game. It's like someone on an online dating site saying "adding a picture to my profile puts a negative effect on responses since you no longer have incentive to see me in person"; if someone says that, they're probably not very attractive.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Clearly the LP is free advertising for Nintendo, or anyone, is false. If it were advertising it would spur on sales. Do you see Nintendo getting a big sales boost from LP? There is a good argument to be made that the LP that shows you the entire game puts a negative effect on game sales since you no longer have incentive to get the game.

I've seen one of my friends play through the whole metal gear series (the ps2 ones anyway) several times and it looked fun so I bought it later for ps3.

And Why didn't you buy it for the PS2? Because you already watched it a half dozen times. You proved my point.

I am sorry but that is just too stupid. You think someone wouldn't buy a game because they had WATCHED it several times? There are several games I have ONLY bought because I watched them online. Your logic is soooo flawed. Do you play games?

I'm sorry but your logic is completely missing. I have a wife who's a gamer who doesn't want to watch me play certain games because seeing the story played out removes the incentive to actually play the game herself. You're going to need to have better logic then a simple ad hom if you want to prove your point.

No, you realize your argument is weak and so focused on only the barely ad hominem instead of the real argument. Which is that I have bought several games, like Minecraft, Waking Earth, and others only after seeing them played on Youtube yet I have never decided not to purchase a game because I had already seen it on Youtube. I will grant you that a very, very few games can be "ruined" by watching the whole thing through but nearly all games are enjoyed through playing them, not watching them. It is the defining difference between games and movies or TV. This seems so obvious to me. Do you really believe that is not true or do have some other axe to grind?

You're the one who has an argument only supported by ignoring what's been presented, and an ad hom. You should probably read back to my first post if you wish to actually debate.

First, can you even make a Minecraft Movie video, or do you not understand the difference between "Hey look at this thing I did in Minecraft" vs "Batman Arkham City 'The Move'". One is nice to share and not worthy of ad revenue, and the other is clearly an act of piracy to get money off of someone elses work. As for Waking Earth are you sure you didn't mean Waking Mars. If so my counter involving Minecraft still applies. You could spoil the ending, but 99% of the game is game play with no final boss, and little to no story what so ever.

Most if not all triple a titles can, and are spoiled by the "lets play" movie nonsense. If you wish to skirt around my argument, and use things like shoe horned in multi-player I'll just call you out on the clear suppressing the evidence fallacy that your argument is clearly based on.

Nintendo and myself clearly have no issue with the cutsy little "look at what I can do" videos. However, when you're going so far as making a Legend of Zelda "The Movie" you've gone too far. What Nintendo has done will hamper them, and they are allowing you to still do the other. It's the profit motive that creates "The Movie" LPs, and those people havn't earned it.

The more clear it becomes your arguments are built on shifting sand the more furiously you try and hold it together.

Your argument, boiled down to its core, is that showing a play through of a game with a strong narrative ruins that game and gives people no reason to buy it. Your incorrect assumption is that people are primarily playing these games to find out what happens in the story. In most cases this is not the case.

Look at a game like the first Metro2033. It has a strong narrative and fairly linear level progression. Yet watching someone play through it is nothing at all like playing the game yourself. Nothing. You are not having to react to the enemies, move your character around, decide when to use your military grade ammo versus your dirty ammo. Watching that game being played and playing are two fundamentally different experiences with very little overlap.

Your claim that a play-through of a narrative driven game is "piracy" is even more ludicrous. Copyright protects against unauthorized reproduction of a product. In a game the code and assets are the protected product. Not the demonstration of playing. Of course that is something a court would decide but I think it would described as "fair use".

My question to you would be why do you feel so strongly about this? Do you dislike Let's Play videos? Would you make the same argument that a review showing game play was engaged in "piracy"?

 

[medv4380]

No, you realize your argument is weak and so focused on only the barely ad hominem instead of the real argument. Which is that I have bought several games, like Minecraft, Waking Earth, and others only after seeing them played on Youtube yet I have never decided not to purchase a game because I had already seen it on Youtube. I will grant you that a very, very few games can be "ruined" by watching the whole thing through but nearly all games are enjoyed through playing them, not watching them. It is the defining difference between games and movies or TV. This seems so obvious to me. Do you really believe that is not true or do have some other axe to grind?

Stuff Mahoshonen is unable to read.

Who brought up making "Minecraft: The Movie?" That's not what an LP is. Only the worst 'retsppurae' garbage even attempts to be a movie version of a game. You are changing the debate in such a crucial way that to me you seem only intent on winning the argument, rather than coming to any sort of understanding.

Clearly you didn't even read the original part of the argument. I'll just highlight my original point.

Nintendo is at least taking the less evil route. You get to use their game footage however you please, but you can't make money off of it. It'll decrease the pirates that show you the entire game as a "movie", and people who have something neat to show everyone can get to show everyone.

Amir, and yourself, are clearly making a suppression fallacy to make your point.

Try again, and actually counter my points this time, or are you incapable of winning the argument without suppression, or a straw man?

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Clearly the LP is free advertising for Nintendo, or anyone, is false. If it were advertising it would spur on sales.

Games like Amnesia, Minecraft, TellTales: The Walking Dead, Slender Man, Kerbal Space Program and Surgeon Simulator 2013 owe their massive success to Let's Plays. They would probably have been successful without them but not nearly to the point they currently are.

I could easily come up with a dozen more games but the idea that it's not promotional material is ridiculous. Even Notch himself agrees it's mutually beneficial, that's why he didn't seek money from their revenue.

 

[Bad Jim]

I don't think Sony is going to sit back and let people use their tech to edit together videos that are extremely critical of the games or the company

I don't think Sony is that concerned. It is the professional critics who can have a serious negative effect on sales, and the pros will get that video out no matter what.

Some idiot making a big cock in LittleBigPlanet and posting a video of it jizzing just isn't going to hurt sales.

 

[Callate]

We have to snap off that arm that's pinned by the boulder before the boulder starts charging us to install pre-owned limbs.

Like a wolf disguised as a sheep in the flock of a very lonely, sexually frustrated shepherd.

Metaphors were harmed in the making of this episode. To hilarious effect.

My hope- and this is complete spitballing, I base this on absolutely no word from Sony- would be that any videos would first go to a user-accessible site before being posted on some sort of public forum. My suspicion is that most people would otherwise only use the "share" option until the first time they screwed up in some embarrassing way and failed to realize it until their infamy was broadcast to their friends. Much like when you look at the fifty shots you took with your phone at the bar last night, grimace, and carefully weed out all but ten.

...And then Sony ends up with a feature that was expensive to implement and a permanent part of their controllers which no one would use, which can't be what they have in mind, methinks.

It also occurs to me that the new "we're the gamer's friend" Sony would be ill-advised to make the feature work in ways that don't meet customers' expectations because, well, someone would just find a third-party work-around and go back to making "Let's Play" videos the old fashioned way. And then if Sony clamps down on that, they not only highlight the inadequacies of the "Share" system, but burn through some of the goodwill they've just earned.

 

[usmcspadden]

The biggest market for user videos is not for spoiler laden games that are played only in a single player setting, but in multiplayer: sports and fps games. One of the greatest plays I made was a pick six on an NCAA title, which I then uploaded using EA's in game highlight system. My friends enjoyed watching the play and comparing it to others. There are countless plays and amazing shots that will happen in games that Yahtzee has already said that he despises. HE doesn't like the idea of recording videos of gameplay because the games that he plays will be ruined storywise if someone else watches those videos.

However at the very least if he played games that were about the repetitive motions, FPS mutliplayer or sports/racing titles, then the interesting/insane things that he wants to tell others about he would like to share them with videos. It's more about the specific titles being played than the players.

My 1 and 1/2 cents.

 

[medv4380]

The more clear it becomes your arguments are built on shifting sand the more furiously you try and hold it together.

Your argument, boiled down to its core, is that showing a play through of a game with a strong narrative ruins that game and gives people no reason to buy it. Your incorrect assumption is that people are primarily playing these games to find out what happens in the story. In most cases this is not the case.

Look at a game like the first Metro2033. It has a strong narrative and fairly linear level progression. Yet watching someone play through it is nothing at all like playing the game yourself. Nothing. You are not having to react to the enemies, move your character around, decide when to use your military grade ammo versus your dirty ammo. Watching that game being played and playing are two fundamentally different experiences with very little overlap.

Your claim that a play-through of a narrative driven game is "piracy" is even more ludicrous. Copyright protects against unauthorized reproduction of a product. In a game the code and assets are the protected product. Not the demonstration of playing. Of course that is something a court would decide but I think it would described as "fair use".

My question to you would be why do you feel so strongly about this? Do you dislike Let's Play videos? Would you make the same argument that a review showing game play was engaged in "piracy"?

Again with an ad hom to start. You could at least try not making the same mistake again, and again.

You should brush up on what copyright is. All LP videos reproduce the Art which falls under Copyright and audio which falls under copyright. So unless your the type of person who thinks they can draw a picture of Mickey Mouse, and Sell it for a few bucks, and not violate copyright law you're committing another suppression fallacy. Even if they were granted rights to reproduce those things they'd have to pay royalties to the artists, and actors that originally made them.

As for both of us. Our arguments at this point have mostly been anecdotal. However, I doubt you have actual evidence to support your claim. For myself I'll cite Jesse Schell and the analysis of demos vs trailers presented at the Dice 2013 conference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=us6OPbYtKBM#!

You expect me, or anyone, to believe that showing someone the entire game from beginning to end isn't as bad, or worse then releasing a demo for a game in terms of sales? Sure a demo does get more sales then nothing, but it costs them all those potential sales if they had just released a trailer.

I have nothing against LP videos that are done for the sake of showing off. I have nothing against people who are doing it for non-profit. I do have something against the ones who spoil the entire game, and make a profit without considering that that should be paying the people involved in the creation of that material. I have something against the LPers who think that video they spliced together is entirely their own, and not a collaborative piece of work. As a collaborative work Nintendo has chosen to give you the rights to publish it as long as you're not profiting off of it.

Would you rather they have done a DMCA notice, and had them all stripped? It's fully within their rights as the holder of the rights of the material that was copied without permission. They picked the most balanced approach available.

 

[s_h_a_d_o]

snip...

... it's at best pointless and at worst dangerous when abused. Like a wolf disguised as a sheep in the flock of a very lonely, sexually frustrated shepherd.

Simile of the Week.

I had, myself, been wondering about the potential legal ramifications (a la Nintendo) that will result from use of this Share facility...

 

[sirjeffofshort]

I can see what you're saying here, but I just don't see why I would get worked up in any way about having the option to do something available. I'm not interested in the functionality so I guess I just don't really care one way or another that it's there... now if on the other hand the button ends up being in an annoying place and I accidentally hit it all the time, then I'd feel differently, otherwise I don't really see how having an optional functionality like this is a downside to the consumer. Of course, I may have just misunderstood what you were trying to get across.

 

[Breywood]

So I just want to briefly state: you don't have to get anything, guys. Part of the reason next-gen consoles are such a fucking mess is because of this ingrained attitude that we have to pick a side. That's why they think they can get away with reducing functionality and DRM hoop-jumping: because we have convinced ourselves that we don't have a choice except to go with the least bad one. Well. You do have a choice. You can choose not to play, because it's the only way to win. Do you think, if console gaming was invented today, it would start out as completely bloody illogical as it has become? It's the sad nature of man that we tolerate bullshit as long as it's bullshit that has been going on forever. But at some point, if things are ever going to evolve, we have to make a break. We have to snap off that arm that's pinned by the boulder before the boulder starts charging us to install pre-owned limbs.

Anyway, that's not what I wanted to talk about.

What a shame. This was my favorite part of the article. Why NOT choose strawberry when someone asks you to choose between vanilla and chocolate?

 

[lancar]

...and the scheme backfired into their breakfast cereal like a flatulent horse.

Maybe it's just because it's past 2AM when I'm writing this right now, but for some reason I find this analogy outright hilarious.