SotC Gameplay Designed by Monkeys?

[scorptatious]

Shadow of the Colossus is one of, if not my most favorite game ever. So forgive me if I sound a wee bit biased.

The camera: I'll admit that on the rare occasion it gets kinda wonky, it's gets pretty wonky. Other then that though, I never had too much of an issue with it.

The Bow: Are you sure you're using it right? I find aiming the bow pretty easy. Sure, sometimes, for whatever reason, the camera gets stuck and doesn't go where you're trying to aim. But those moments are pretty rare for me. So I don't know why you're having so much trouble with it.

The controls: While I can admit, when compared to some of today's games, the controls are sort of clunky at first, I still find the controls easy to get into after a few minutes. I think you may be making a bigger deal out of climbing onto Agro than it actually is. As for Wander being unresponsive in jumping and climbing onto ledges, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you give a specific example of something like this happening?

Agro: For the most part, Agro moves by himself. All you can do with him is to get him to move faster and steer. If you attempt to directly control him, you're just going to run into a lot of walls and trees.

The map: I'll admit there are a few hard to find colossi. But half the game centers on exploration and thinking outside of the box. If your sword is pointing in the direction you need to go and a mountain is in your way, find a way around it. It takes a bit of patience, but finding the colossi you're looking for makes it all the sweeter.

The boss puzzles: Okay, I'll admit, I had the guide to this game. So whenever I got stuck for a while I went to read it for a little help. Some of these solutions can be pretty hard to figure out. Although I can't really say how getting colossus #4's leg stuck in the ground is a more intuitive way then getting him to bend over looking for you in a tunnel. Besides, Dormin does give you hints the longer you spend trying to fight a colossus.

While I don't neccesarily agree with most of your points, you're entitled to your opinion of the game and I respect that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and finish up the Normal mode Time Trials for this game. I've played through this game at least half a dozen times and I have yet to beat them. :/

 

[Electrogecko]

The game has it's problems for sure. I agree that the controls can be counter-intuitive and clunky and that the horse is a pain in the ass, (no pun intended) but I found the real challenge of the game to be in finding the correct strategy to kill the things; not in the execution of that strategy. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, I didn't have any trouble with the actual shooting, climbing and stabbing during the boss fights. I liked the idea of a universal stamina bar....circle....thingy, and the risk/reward system of charging up stabs, and the climbing controls seemed strange at first, but they grew on me.

All in all, I do feel that the game is overrated slightly, but I enjoyed it immensely and I wish there were more games like it coming out today.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Well, don't expect to look any smarter, or to have any sort of moral highground with such ridiculous remarks as yours, especially if at least the OP has spent some time explaining in detail his gripes, and yours are unproductive, snarky remarks.

Furthermore, it seems to me you've both at least partially miss-understood the reason for his post. He doesn't appear to be stating SotC as terrible or completely unplayable game, but questions various opinions that this game is somehow close to perfect (which it isn't).

Whilst I hugely enjoyed Colossus, there is no question that the game is deeply flawed, simply on the grounds of its premise. It's a string of boss fights padded out with very long and bland (yet, for some, still enjoyable) trekking, with controls deliberately flawed for artistic reasons.

The OP is not trolling, nor is he nitpicking. It just so happens that he found the flaws to be less bareable than others did, and questions how some appear to glossen over these faults. And reading other posts, he's clearly not alone.

So you would think more of me if I wrote a long ass post starting with "is the OP an ignorant monkey" followed by a nitpicky bullet point list that fundamentally misses the point?

 

[Electrogecko]

One of the things I liked was the animations of the main character. I'll tell you, for the amount of jumping that goes on in games like CoD and Halo, it all looks like robotic crap compared to the way the protagonist (Wander, you said his name is; news to me) jumps around in SoTC. This also applies to the way he staggers when the earth quakes and how he's shaken and tossed about by the colossi. He seemed like a perfectly normal and vulnerable human being the whole way through because of it, even if he did have Wolverine regen.

Btw, I played the game about a year ago and think it compares favorably to most AAA games I play today, so I disagree that it doesn't hold up.

 

[Electrogecko]

Damn captcha....this is your fault.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

You lost me at "didn't finish the first Colossus." You obviously didn't play the game for more than 20 minutes, and then you move to criticize it's story, a story you didn't even give a chance.

If you'd read my post, you would have seen that I watched someone else play the entire game many years ago. I saw the whole story.

I also think bundling ICO and SotC together was a bad idea, neither was meant to be a direct sequel/prequel to the other. They're two very different games which happen to take place in the same universe, and I cringe a bit when people compare them to one another.

Actually, SotC was meant to be a prequel to Ico. They've said the horned boys in Ico were descendents of the main character of SotC.

 

[FalloutJack]

Awww I thought this thread was actually going to be about Team ICO designing encounters by watching monkeys <.<

Or that their great work was created by infinite monkeys with typewriters AFTER the playwrite for Hamlet. Call me disappointed by the thread now.

Actually, I'm just disappointed because while everyone has an opinion, not everyone will agree. Many people enjoy Team Ico's works and I'm personally charmed that they felt bad about not doing a good enough job with the PS2 releases that they apologized and worked on the new.

Here's the thing, everyone has a problem with something, but sometimes the problem is more personal. When Yahtzee reviewed Ghostbusters, I was puzzled by some of the problems that he had with it, controlling it or the game seemingly doing what it should properly. I say this because I had the game and finished it before he was even ready with the review and had a smashing goos time, but for a couple of issues that weren't even among the mentioned in ZP. My conclusion was that HIS COPY was what's wrong, since mine didn't express the same issues.

I can't help the troubles other people have. I know what I like and that's how it is.

 

[Casual Shinji]

You're right OP; No matter how good something is, it will always be terrible.

 

[The_Waspman]

I'll be honest, I bought the Team Ico HD collection because of all the fuss that everyone made about SotC, and I even went into it with the mindset 'Its a PS2 game, so expect it not to be as polished as all the fancy games we get nowadays'. The first thing I noticed about it was how gorgeous it looks, even by todays standards.

Then of course I started to play it.

While I can see that some of your points are niggly nit picks, I do agree with some of the things you say. Like the controls being complete wank. Though I have read and heard that the controls were a lot tighter on the PS2, it doesn't really make me feel any better as i howl with frustration as i was again get thrown off colossus X for the dozenth time because my stamina gauge ran out because of Wanders frigging rag doll animation.

And Agro. Oh Agro. Never before has a character been more aptly named, for the amount of rage he produces. Yes, I understnad its supposed to be evocative of riding a real horse, but having to mash the x button constantly to get anywhere... No, just no.

I admit, I haven't completed the game yet, I'm up to colossus nine I think, but it just doesn't hold my interest enough. Despite the limitations of the hardware it was originally produced for (by todays standards) I don't think its worthy of all the praise it gets.

But then, I also happen to think Half Life 2 is complete wank as well *flame shield up*

 

[Raggedstar]

If anyone calls SOTC a game for everyone, they're lying.
If anyone who says SOTC is perfect, they're lying.
Simply put.

But that being said, SOTC is one of my favourite games and I'll say without a doubt it's one of the best from it's decade. Is the game clunky? Sure, but it's very unique, intense, beautiful, and while "artsy" is still very much a game. The stuff it does right outwieghs what it did wrong.

Most of these criticisms I see in the OP and comments seem to be common, and aren't without their truths *cracks knuckes and contributes*

Useless Camera: I assure you, while SOTC's camera isn't that good, I've played worse. Japanese Spyro The Dragon's makes me physically sick. I can't play it more than 30 minutes without getting motion sickness and a wicked headache (did I mention the game did crap in Japan? I WONDER WHY). It makes SOTC's look like a gift from the gods. If anyone decides to play it, you have been warned. Wander never had a foot fetish in my playthroughs, but it is rather slow and clunky to adjust or while you aim. I won't defend it on that angle. You know what's worse? Try fiddling with that camera on the PS2 version while your console is seizuring on the floor trying to maintain a framerate (and ultimately failing).

Bow: Never herd of that 0-0. Is there a sensitivity thing you can adjust? Mine was always slow. I will admit that the crosshair is a little tricky to see. Could've been made a little bolder so it could pop out more.

Unresponsiveness: *throw arms in the air* I'll admit it's the biggest flaw the game has, and Ico was even worse (and then you're stuck with triangle as jump. X's current assignment is one of the lesser used commands, so why it's at the most accessible symbol button is beyond me). On the PS2 when the framerate was awful, it was made into a huge liability when you're flailing around trying to avoid getting squished or falling. Far from unplayable, but I will grant mercy to anyone who says the unresponsive controls are a turn-off. However, there is a sense of vulnerability you get from some horror games. Not calling it an excuse, but something I noticed. People already noted the R1 method of getting on Agro, and unlike Ico, you can change where the controls ar mapped. I for one switched X and triangle (ie where they should've been the whole time)

Agro: Never ever had a problem...ever...in the years I've played, and yet I always see people call Agro horrible lol. I must be gifted with AI animals, because Agro has always took care of himself pretty well and obeyed like an eager dog, steering around paths and rocks and coming when he's needed. He gets spooked a lot, but meh, at least he's better than real life horses (they're such wusses). I just hold the button and let him do the rest (steering when needed). Not perfect, but I always found Agro a lot easier than Epona (who I found hideously stiff and lifeless in OOT and TP) or the Assassin's Creed horses (damnthemplz). Plus I've seen some awesome glitches with Agro lol. Once he glitched into oblivion...when I needed him to beat that colossus. It was terrifying since that boss could kill me so easily but...Agro just rode the snake into the ground and vanished with him LMFAO.

Map: Agreed, not the best, but if you're playing the story then you don't need it too much. Follow the focused light rays on your sword. Your map will only really give you an impression where you are in the map, and you need to explore the vast world to get where you want to go. If you go the path the game intends and nowhere ese, then you miss about 30% of it. Damn shame. Of course it's irritating when the light points right at mountain, but you can always poke around. I've never been totally lost, and my sense of direction is awful.

I actually saw a review of the game where the dude said he couldn't find the first colossus and completely slammed the game. Even if you don't get the light thing, the game hints you at the last bit of the cutscene to run straight out the door. Unrelated to OP, but just sharing.

Tutorials/Puzzles: Manual, 1st colossus tutorial and control menu. That's all you need. The game eventually does give you tips, but they're pretty vague. The rest of the game is very subtle in teaching you the mechanics as you learn, somewhat like Portal. Experiment and try to use your resources, colossus behaviour, and environment to your advantage. Think of it like MacGyver. I have a sword, a bow, and a hidey hole in a temple while a big beardy dude is lumbering around, poking his head around. I need to get to head to go stabby stabby. Hey wait...I KNOW!!!

I'll admit again, #4 is a tricky little bastard and his AI is a little loony. I managed to figure out how to peg him without a walkthrough (oh man did it feel rewarding) but he is one of THOSE bosses that make you wonder what the designers were thinking (even though he has two intended solutions, but they both require him to be in the right spot). I EVENTUALLY got it after remembering when Dormin said "It is giant indeed but fearful, it is not" and noticed how curious he was at poking at and inspecting the shelters. Even though I know how to beat him, success depends entirely on him falling for it (and I must say, he's clever and really doesn't want me to beat time attacks) rather than your own skill. PS3 version feels harder in that regard because the AI (and Wander's balance, while we're on that topic) seems a little...off.

SOTC's faults are more or less highlighted there to a T. However, the game's atmosphere, immersion, story/premise, graphics/animation, artistic direction, world, music, colossus battles and designs (hell, the colossi themselves), etc, make it up for a lot of people. Flawed? Indeed, but still deserving in it's own right to be remembered and learned from. Jim Sterling I hear isn't a fan of the games for most of thes reasons, but still has the respect for them.

TLDR: Disagree with OP but has many good points that may be game-breakers to some but not others. SOTC is not for everyone and is far from perfect, blah-de-blah. Oh and Agro is still awesome :3

 

[Innegativeion]

I would like to point out about your problem with collosus 4, that I had a similar issue, until I found my own way; you can actually grab its whisker things by jumping off agro at it. It was pretty fucking awesome.

That said, almost all the colossus "puzzles" have a variety of solutions, or at least methods of arriving at the same solution, which I really liked about the game.

And you said your issue was that your ideas were more intuitive? Maybe... if the beast was fumbling enough to get caught in a dirt hill its been wandering around all of its existence. It's movements are very slow and calculated, after all. In the end, you use its slow movements to your advantage by distracting it.

I don't think team ICO didn't implement your methods out of lack of intuitiveness, but because of how they envisioned the beast would respond. It's graceful and inquisitive, but not overly aggressive, as you can see by just its movements.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

i get where you coming from, but i love the game. what shocks me is that your complaining and youre only at colossus #4. at least make it to the halfway point before you complain. many of the problems youre having get better after youve played the game for more than 2 hours. lastly, to create collossus that size the devs had to use an engine that used size relative to speed/handling, so thats why agro handles like crap while wander is a nimble little bastard.

 

[Blow_Pop]

Spoiler

hey look!

Oh my gosh. Look at that! A list of controls!

And what's this? gameplay tips, finding the colossi, lizards, and fruit

Hey man I was drinking when I clicked on that! That has a lot more info than the original manual too.

Really? Because I seem to recall my original booklet that came with the PS2 game being larger with more info *goes and searches through boxes*
Oh look. 31 pages. For the PS2 one.
15 for the Ico/SotC HD collection.
Shall we compare? Yes, lets....

Spoiler

First let's make it clear, we are comparing this

to this

Since I already did the first one, here's the second:

Also, what does you drinking have to do with me posting images of the insert?

Edit: I have problems with only two of the colossi and one of them is a generic problem I have.
The generic one is Dirge. And that's simply a matter of me not being able to shoot behind me whilst trying not to run into a wall on Agro. I've never been able to do it. My solution, my little brother is amazing at shooting behind him in games whilst going straight without running into the wall. He shoots, pauses, I take care of stabbing Dirge. Rinse, Lather, Repeat until death.
My newest problem that has arisen since re-starting the game on the PS3 and not unlocking hard yet is Basaran and flipping him over. I know how to do, in fact, I HAVE done it on the PS2 when I initially beat the game, I'm just having difficulty doing it now. And this bothers me.....I think I need to bribe my brother to try flipping him for me......

 

[TehCookie]

Spoiler

hey look!

Oh my gosh. Look at that! A list of controls!

And what's this? gameplay tips, finding the colossi, lizards, and fruit

Hey man I was drinking when I clicked on that! That has a lot more info than the original manual too.

Really? Because I seem to recall my original booklet that came with the PS2 game being larger with more info *goes and searches through boxes*
Oh look. 31 pages. For the PS2 one.
15 for the Ico/SotC HD collection.
Shall we compare? Yes, lets....

Spoiler

First let's make it clear, we are comparing this

to this

Since I already did the first one, here's the second:

Also, what does you drinking have to do with me posting images of the insert?

I laughed so hard I almost spewed it on my desk/monitor. The original has more pages but it's just a bloated way of telling you the controls. The newer one looks like it has a lot more information, like the tips you mentioned (I don't own the HD and your pics are too blurry to read).

 

[Tanis]

Only control issue I had with the game was the 'more drunk than an Irish-Native-American at an open bar trying to play a Nascar game' controls of the damn horse.

I was CLAPPING when I thought that damn thing had died.

 

[Bealzibob]

As someone who just bought the game about a week ago I loved it. My brother hated the controls but I have no problem with them and I can see why the game was considered a divine blessing to gamers in the first place. I got a PS2 copy and i'm playing it on the PS2 so it might be a little different when playing the new revamped release on the PS3.

 

[Strain42]

What? You dislike a game that I enjoyed? I've...I've never had this happen to me...IS THIS WHAT THE INTERNET IS REALLY LIKE!?

Is this normal? I'm overcome with strange feelings of...of...total apathy, actually.

I like the game, you don't. Cool, these things happen.

I personally didn't have any problems with what you said, but if you tried to hand me a modern FPS game I'd have problems with the controls too.

 

[Warachia]

We were playing the same game right? Because I'm not a fan of the game, or the developers, and I found it handled just fine, I never encountered the problem with trying to get on the horse, I'll agree the aiming is finicky, but not enough to be a dealbreaker, I never had that ledge problem, ever, when you go around on horseback, I recall the camera decenters only when you've been going in a general direction for a while, and it's easily changeable by just turning the character, the horse is a little annoying, but again, not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, maybe that's a port issue, I can't speak for the map, as I've never used it, ever, and I don't think there's any sense in getting annoyed about exploring in a game based largely around exploration, you realize that killing the bosses are only part of what you are supposed to do right? I do remember the game giving me tutorials on everything essential though, maybe they removed those in the HD edition, and I remember very little of the boss puzzles, aside that none of them were so complicated that I couldn't figure it out on my own.

Even the Captcha is on my side: get over it.

 

[Blow_Pop]

Spoiler

hey look!

Oh my gosh. Look at that! A list of controls!

And what's this? gameplay tips, finding the colossi, lizards, and fruit

Hey man I was drinking when I clicked on that! That has a lot more info than the original manual too.

Really? Because I seem to recall my original booklet that came with the PS2 game being larger with more info *goes and searches through boxes*
Oh look. 31 pages. For the PS2 one.
15 for the Ico/SotC HD collection.
Shall we compare? Yes, lets....

Spoiler

First let's make it clear, we are comparing this

to this

Since I already did the first one, here's the second:

Also, what does you drinking have to do with me posting images of the insert?

I laughed so hard I almost spewed it on my desk/monitor. The original has more pages but it's just a bloated way of telling you the controls. The newer one looks like it has a lot more information, like the tips you mentioned (I don't own the HD and your pics are too blurry to read).

Ah ok. That makes sense on the drinking thing. Newer one has the same information. Only real difference is the HD collection has the controls for ICO. Since y'know it is an HD collection with both ICO and SotC in it. And newer one has smaller print. All in all I think I like the older one better. Just cause it gives me a place to make notes at.

 

[Yarkaz]

You lost me at "didn't finish the first Colossus." You obviously didn't play the game for more than 20 minutes, and then you move to criticize it's story, a story you didn't even give a chance.

If you'd read my post, you would have seen that I watched someone else play the entire game many years ago. I saw the whole story.

I also think bundling ICO and SotC together was a bad idea, neither was meant to be a direct sequel/prequel to the other. They're two very different games which happen to take place in the same universe, and I cringe a bit when people compare them to one another.

Actually, SotC was meant to be a prequel to Ico. They've said the horned boys in Ico were descendents of the main character of SotC.

Forgive me, the first point escaped my notice. As for my second perspective, I was speaking from a gameplay perspective. I'm aware that Ico is a descendant of Wander, but as far as combat and gameplay go, they are meant to be approached very differently. Dropping preconceived notions from ICO is really important to actually enjoying SotC.