Space Marines: They're becoming wimpier with each generation (Now with added ORK!)
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i think alex is on to something, but this is very clearly just a chat about individual taste. i much prefer a smash em in the mouth in your face, kill , crush, and destroy warrior, id guess that alex doesnt. when i first watched the movie 'the terminator' i fucking hated Kyle Reese and wanted the terminator to kill them both (still do) and ill admit to a certian sympath in later movies for the 'bad' version, though not as much because the 'good' version was pretty badass still and the whole silver clay version was just kinda stupid. i REALLY like the HKs best of all. and im comfortable in saying that if Kyle Reese was the best humanity could do than we diserve to die out.Kadamon said:
i think that the 40K space marines have about pushed the limits of what we as humans could be able to do from a purly psyical point of view and a plausable if not TOTALY realistic way. its not totaly unbelievable that we could some day create a super soldier that is 10 feet tall with 2 hearts and 4 lungs that, yes, spits acid. even their weapons dont require alot of change to accomplish, it doesnt require that we invent a whole new branch of science to give them uber guns for instiance, or even a chainsword. about the most truly outslandish aspects are psykers and the whole idea of chaos become tangable and psyical and even thats not as 'out there' as some sci-fie that people enjoy, the whole Jedi/Sith things is in its way much more unbelievable what with the 'force' having a split personality and all and cant make up its mind if its for the 'good' guys or the 'bad' guys.
it just seems to me anyhow looking at the subject froma big picture point of view that in almost any story about war or involving 'good' vrs 'evil', in short anything dealing with human nature, it allways seems that the good guys are pussys and only win beacause of either luck or truly stupid bad guys. the 40K marines win by skill, talent, and ability, the bad guys arent stupid for the most part (even the Orcs know how to wage war and win), and luck is just as much against them as for them. in short they play on a level playing field and still manage to win more often than not.
i guess what im saying is i like the Luke that beat vader in RoTJ when he kicked vaders ass in a 1 on 1 better than i did the whining sniviling little pussy in ESB, well ... that is right up untill he didnt finish him off than kill the Emperor himself. too often 'good' is the same thing as weak. i truly enjoy a 'good' hero that is atleast as strong if not THEE strongest guy in the fight. there is a reason that people like the Vader of the original star wars and didnt so much care for the lil blatt ass that was anakin in the new ones. people like respect power and how much more is their to like and respect of that power when its the 'good guys' that have it? thats the 40K space Marines.
some people however like the whole idea of rooting for the 'underdog' im just not one of those people. generaly the underdog is a looser for a reason and going through any trial hoping that luck or enemy stupidity will keep you alive and eventualy let you win is simply no substitute for a good plan and the power to kick enough ass to make it happen. .......... when an underdog 'wins' in real life its far far far more often the exception rather than the rule. when the USA beat the soviets in hocky in the 80 (was it?) olympics the thing that made that story special was because of the previous 9,000 years of getting our asses kicked. but if a hocky team pulled off a win like that every year it would become nothing special. and ultimatly i admire the soviets more, sure we got lucky once, it makes for a fine story, but whats to be admired is the soviets domination. in short i want my 'good guys' too win because they are the best among relative equils, not because of luck.
Yea, I don't like how games and media have taken away the incredible idea of an 11-foot tall armor suit covering a genetically-engineered 7-foot tall man on more steroids than are used in the whole of the Olympics. Now they're FOOT SOLDIERS? The way i see it is that they should be reserved for the shock forces, and only used in serious battles. However, they've yet to rip off the Female bounty hunter in alien-made armor of hotness. And for the 500 kilos of Master Cheif, you think he'd get more armor for that weight, or stop an ATV moving at 15 mph.Dommyboy said:
...Space Marines are not defined but 40k...
The Adeptes Arstartes are much more powerful than the mobile infantry, when it comes to the backstory.
The original Orks wore crazy outfits and looked like a joke. I should know, I played them (Goff Ork Rockers for the win!)
That said, Space Marines fill me with loathing. Everything warhammer is stolen from Dune or other great literature.
Really, Imperial Guard are still ?space marines? in so much as they are soldiers and they move from planet to planet. They suck, but in the emporium of man flesh is an endless commodity.
PS Halo sucks.
The Adeptes Arstartes are much more powerful than the mobile infantry, when it comes to the backstory.
The original Orks wore crazy outfits and looked like a joke. I should know, I played them (Goff Ork Rockers for the win!)
That said, Space Marines fill me with loathing. Everything warhammer is stolen from Dune or other great literature.
Really, Imperial Guard are still ?space marines? in so much as they are soldiers and they move from planet to planet. They suck, but in the emporium of man flesh is an endless commodity.
PS Halo sucks.
Nice try. Starship Troopers was written (as a book) in '59. And those troopers never died, however Nazi-esque they might have been.Kadamon said:
Actually, that is overkill. Only a space marine scout would need that..BlackIronGuardian said:
But the stuff the Space Marines are fighting for, though -- Holy Terra and the Emperor's order -- well, it's a total crapsack world. (Heck, 40k is pretty much the ultimate in crapsack-world gaming.)Wyatt said:
The order they're fighting for isn't "good". This is a theme that the game's writers borrowed from Moorcock: chaos and order are both fucked-up beyond belief. The Space Marines are upholding something that will destroy humanity just as surely as the terrors of the Warp will. And they do it obediently, unquestioningly, even lovingly.
-- Alex
What is seen as evil by some, is seen as good by others.Alex_P said:
I see somewhat military-religion, like if Catholics stopped burning people in hell and picked up a gun.
ya know as i was writing that reply i thought of this very thing.Alex_P said:
too steal a line from Dune "What is justice? Two forces collide. Each may have the right in his own sphere. And here's where an Emperor commands orderly solutions. Those collisions he cannot prevent ? he solves. [How?], in the simplest way: he decides."
now to change that too make my point more clear.
What is evil? Two forces collide. Each may have the right in his own sphere. And here's where an Emperor commands orderly solutions. Those collisions he cannot prevent ? he solves. [How?], in the simplest way: he decides.
i perhaps should have said as i was writing that reply that its a question of Us vrs Them as most conflicts truly are. and the Space Marines are more or less the ultimate weapon WE have against THEM. i dont know if mankind is 'good' or 'evil' but its my .... family i guess? atleast in reguards to the question of human vrs alien id be very much on the side of humans in any event in that fight id want something like the SM's to be the backbone of OUR side.
outside of a few cosmetic features i dont see the 40K universe as anything like the Dune Universe. the only connections i can really make is that there is a space empire, various 'guilds', and a superhuman emperor....... hmm now that i think about it perhaps your right. i guess i never made the connection before because i truly love the Dune series and while i enjoy the 40K lore its not even in the same ballpark with Dune. ill have to ponder this some more i think.mudshovel said:
i guess the biggest difference i can say is simple, Dune, the original series not the shitstorm(s) Kevin Anderson and Brian Herbert wrote (man that was truly trash) really IS awsome writing. very few books can make me want to re-read them and fewer still can actualy make me think of something new or see some aspect of the story i missed the first few times around. Dune does that still for me after perhaps a dozen reading over the last 20 years. most of the writing and storys of warhammer 40K is kinda in some respects much like the trash that Anderson writes, the biggest difference is there is no high caliber works about 40K in the same legue with Franks Dune so something that is really pretty piss poor story telling when its set in the dune universe can seem not quite so bad in the same style of writing in the 40K universe.
still, good call on pointing this out. ive loved Dune for years and its perhaps my favorite work of science fiction and while i enjoy warhammer 40K generaly im dont actualy know that much about the details of it.
btw there can be a good case that Dune was just ripped off from the foundation series by Asimov, kinda interesting to follow the links isnt it?
wow it kept going
if the giant marine has a head (i hope to god he does) then logically sniping him in the had would kill him, yes?
i dotn give a crap about halo or 40k, point is ur placing a guy that was trained to kill lots of enemies his size (which is human incase you missed who im refering to) with teammates that are just as fast and just as strong as he is, throwing him at a 12ft tall guy wrapped in armor in a melee fight wouldnt make much sense,
and personally i dont think a marine would need to get close to the giant guy, even a normal one, a single air strike and the big guy has a fair sized hole in him if they dropped more than a few bullets and a single artillery shell on him from long range.
c-130 gunship, or a futureistic equivalent
marines dont fight without some kind of air cover, just incase a tank or in this case a 12ft tall freak happend to walk by.
id like to point out that a plasma based weapon would pretty much melt what ever it touched, so if cheif had the plasme sword he really would only have to throw it at the guys leg
and to somethin someone said about the 12ft tall marines being fast, your kidding your self, that guy would have to get hundreds of pounds of flesh and metal moving inorder to dodge something, and that isnt something done quickly
if the giant marine has a head (i hope to god he does) then logically sniping him in the had would kill him, yes?
i dotn give a crap about halo or 40k, point is ur placing a guy that was trained to kill lots of enemies his size (which is human incase you missed who im refering to) with teammates that are just as fast and just as strong as he is, throwing him at a 12ft tall guy wrapped in armor in a melee fight wouldnt make much sense,
and personally i dont think a marine would need to get close to the giant guy, even a normal one, a single air strike and the big guy has a fair sized hole in him if they dropped more than a few bullets and a single artillery shell on him from long range.
c-130 gunship, or a futureistic equivalent
marines dont fight without some kind of air cover, just incase a tank or in this case a 12ft tall freak happend to walk by.
id like to point out that a plasma based weapon would pretty much melt what ever it touched, so if cheif had the plasme sword he really would only have to throw it at the guys leg
and to somethin someone said about the 12ft tall marines being fast, your kidding your self, that guy would have to get hundreds of pounds of flesh and metal moving inorder to dodge something, and that isnt something done quickly
We just agreed that the games/movies for each ip are now canon, marines have arround 20% more health then guardsmen in DoW, which are in halo, the equivalant of the allied grunts. Therefor, it takes MC 2 shots with a needler to kill one while (assuming normal difficulty) being able to take 10 hits in return before his shields fail. So MC is about as tough as a 10 man squad of 40k marines.Wasder said:
Actually, I thought the space marine genre came from Aliens as well.spyrewolf said:
and to the current Master Chief vs Space Marine thread.
The Master Chief would win. Hands down, unless he was dumb enough to try and fight them head on.
MC is faster than man (which a space marine is, albiet an enhanced one) and what makes him more dangerous is the fact that now he has cortana (and if you have read the books) he has thought speed reactions now. If he thinks his hand to his chest, it will move there as demonstrated in the book The Fall of Reach. (Not used in the game for balance issues) His reactions are more than double the speed of the average human as it is. So now the fact his reactions are now ridicously fast plus with the fact he can run up to 55 Kmph coupled with his intelligence, never say die attitude and luck he could easily outwit any space marine.
Plasma Weapons in the 40k world are deadly, they could easily kill any space marine, so what is a sword made out of pure plasma going to do? He could cut a space marine into bits with his speed. Space Marine has power fist, chainsword or lightening claw? MC would cut the weapon in half with a plasma sword.
A gravity hammer can deflect grenades and rockets! and a Spartan Laser would be as deadly as a lascannon if not stronger.
And his shielding would provide adequate protection if he happened to get caught out, i mean, he deflected an anti tank missile with his hands in the book! (he did lose all his shields mind)
I am not making the Space Marines to be wimpy or anything, because I know they are not seeing as I have read many 40k Novels.
The only space marines MC would have ANY problem with is a primarch.
Little blue cut out squares you meanKadamon said:
Yup, from what I learned on Black Industries/FFG forums, the way the Imperium is run is not exactly what the big E had in mind. Just imagine that, a ruling theocracy that screws up the original idea and turns into a bunch of witch burning loones. Wonder where they got that from?
Ripped off from Dune nothing, other than being in space it's ripped of from christianity & history. I'd challege you to find anything that hadn't been done before in some capacity.
And I thought the marine fluff was abjectly absurd. This just takes the biscuit, the cake and everything in the room. And then solid snake bursts in through the window and begins randomly shooting at the geckos mounted on the wall.RAKais said:
Hunde Des Krieg said:
The Space Marines in Starship Troopers actually remind me quite a bit of the Imperial Guard (down to a Chickenhawk resembling a Sentinel), so I'd actually say it's the other way around. Whereas (from what I know) the ST marines were just average guys with big guns, the 40K Marines are 10-foot tall religious fanatics that are biologically enhanced to resemble an epitome of mankind and are operated on to do everything from interface with their armor more efficiently to spit acid (no joke [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine]). The 40K SMs have guns usually wielded by a two-man team that shoots exploding radioactive bullets. Space marines almost never die, and the ones that do (redshirts notwithstanding) are turned into great mechanical sarcophagi armed with flamethrowers and laser cannons.Specter_ said:
Oh, and see also 1987 (40k) Vs. 1997 (ST). Vs. Doom (1993). I think we rather win.