Space Marines: They're becoming wimpier with each generation (Now with added ORK!)

[rossatdi]

I remember reading that in the case of a planetary scale revolt, sending 4-6 Space Marines could be considered overkill.

(I'm going on literature not game mechanics)

Well going by other parts of the literature it is entirely possible for one human with a chainsword to kill a chaos space marine (Gaunt does it in one of the Ghost's books).

You can't take the fluff seriously as it is merely designed to big up each respective race.

 

[rossatdi]

WH40K SM > Mobile Infantry.
Stronger, faster, MUCH SMARTER, better weapons and armour and equipment, more purposeful motivation other than "HUR HUR, KILL DEM BUGZ!".
I mean, cmon. Why don't the future military have tanks?? Or at least APCs. No. Instead the Mobile(?) Infantry gotta walk everywhere and DIE ALOT. It takes 6 MIs to kill 1 bug. It takes 467 heretics to kill a Space Marine. If he's not looking. And in the shower.

P.S: Space Marines (According to the Black Library novels) have 3 lungs, 2 hearts and can eat anything that's even slighty edible.

Well in the original Starship Troopers book each soldier was more akin to a Terminator than the squishy people in the film.

Remember: 3 lungs, 2 hearts and no balls.

 

[eatenbyagrue]

Starship Trooper marines were gung-ho redneck idiots.

W40k marines were awesome.

Not necessarily. Remember that 40k marines are genocidal, will almost never retreat (that "No Retreat, No Surrender" rule comes to mind) and never question their orders.

On the other hand, Starship Troopers space marines are pretty much like the SEALS or Green Berets of today, but with more training and awesomesauce gear.

 

[Kevvers]

Somehow, I'd think you'd want to have a character you could identify with more than a massive hulk of armor. Say what you will about Halo, Master Chief is at least easier to identify with than that.

What are you talking about, have we EVER actually seen the master chief out of armour? You don't IDENTIFY with master chief, he is completely devoid of any character whatsoever allowing you for you to insert yourself directly into... him... that sounded wrong.

1. There needs to be balance, the days of a squad of terminators and a HQ walking around destroying several armies of troops on their own are gone. It was not balanced and it did not make for competitive tournements.

Yeah totally agree. Whats the point when everyone always chooses Space Marines because they're indestructible.

2. In the lore it made no sense for space marines to be that much stronger than say, Eldar, the comparisons were compared to humans where they are awsome was to humans, which they still are.

Yeah, that never made sense to me either. Apparently they are a super intelligent advanced species that can manipulate the warp, and a single eldar life is more precious than thousands of human lives. And yet they go into battle wearing what is basically imperial guard flak armour just good enough to be completely useless against the standard space marine weapon. And have guns that shoot shurikens. Just shurikens. WHERE'S THE LIGHTNING!

 

[Vortigar]

There's a huge discrepancy between 40K Space Marines by the fluff (novels) or by the rules of the game. I'll have to agree with Fire Daemon who put on the last page that the 40K marines are based on medieval fantasy ideas and not military ones, so the comparison is crooked from the get go.

eatenbyagrue:
Not entirely true, they're indeed loyal to a fault but individual units are also trained to be able to make independant actions and modify tactics based on the situation on the ground. Some of the special characters of old were sergeants who had shown exceptional initiative and were praised for it by their peers and superiors alike.

The main space marine rule is "They shall no know fear" and has them make small retreats and automatically regroup. "No Retreat, No Surrender" is from Azrael the Grand Master of the Dark Angels and will overwrite that rule and indeed make your entire army unable to retreat ever. The DA's are known for being particularly (over)zealous among the Marine chapters, which is why their unbreakable rule isn't called courageous or something but Stubborn.

They're definately genocidal though (or is it xenocidal?) and absolutely unwavering in their cause and conviction no matter the consequences.

Remember: 3 lungs, 2 hearts and no balls.

Lol. I'm so stealing that one.

 

[stinkypitz]

Well he does have a point. The space marine from Doom went to hell and shot all the demons in the face with a BFG. I don't see master chief doing that any time soon.

 

[beoweasel]

As much as I love warhammer 40k Adeptus Astartes (aka, Space Marines.) you really can't deny the fact that they aren't people. They're indoctrinated genetically altered weapons. Their whole purpose is to kill everything that is a threat to the Imperium, and they don't care (well, most of them.) just how much damage they do to achieve their goals. They're psychotic killing machines.

And while they are supremely awesome and bad-ass, I much prefer the Imperial Guard (who are more onpar with your average sci-fi grun.) because their much more human.

 

[rossatdi]

Spoiler: Game over man, game over.

 

[RAWKSTAR]

Fucking being a spacemarine, let me be a Terminator.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

The guard are the more important of the two, as they fight 99% of the Imperium's battles by whatever means (not just attrition, no matter what the chimp of a writer GW brought in for the IG section of the rulebook says)

And we have the best tanks.

 

[Avida]

Doesnt surprise me that they're getting wimpier when everyone complains [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/global/search/?q=4+brick+shithouses&cx=005672590579257297818%3Amkmrjhvsnwa&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&sa.x=0&sa.y=0] about the uber-macho bullshit ¬_¬

 

[rossatdi]

The guard are the more important of the two, as they fight 99% of the Imperium's battles by whatever means (not just attrition, no matter what the chimp of a writer GW brought in for the IG section of the rulebook says)

And we have the best tanks.

99% of the fluff battles and 10% of the game battles!

The noble Leman Russ battle tank for 145pts has won me battle after battle. Two of them and a Demolisher = pain for space marines.

"Pff, go on roll the scatter dice."
"Direct hit! That's 8 2+ to kills on your marine squad!"
"Bastard."

 

[killme]

will people stop confusing the men in cricket armour with a pop gun starship troopers from the films with the walking gorilla shaped bi-pedal tanks from the book that can drop in under their own steam from low orbit then fold a WH40K Marine in to a pretzel..

thank you

 

[rossatdi]

will people stop confusing the men in cricket armour with a pop gun starship troopers from the films with the walking gorilla shaped bi-pedal tanks from the book that can drop in under their own steam from low orbit then fold a WH40K Marine in to a pretzel..

thank you

Just for everyone here. I would recommend reading Joe Haldeman's The Forever War after Starship Troopers as it provides an good antithesis for the militaristic-fascistic overtones in Starship Troopers.

 

[Gavmando]

Rules wise, the movie marine rules are closer to what the marines should be, and, the Inquisitor rules are also close to what the marines should be.

I havnt read anything about Starship Troopers so I cant really comment on them. Though the dudes in the movie were pretty fearless.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

 

[Jaythulhu]

The space marine genre is defined by Starship Troopers.

The video-game space marine was originally defined by Doom.

-- Alex

Where pray tell, do you get that information from? Starship Troopers has nothing to do with space mari.... oh wait, you're talking about the movie. Guess what? Warhammer 40k was around before doom and starship troopers the movie.

I have to say I agree with the OP. The only hardcore space marines are the ones used in 40k. Master chef isn't tough enough to lick the boots of a servitor, let alone be compared to one of the emperor's finest.

Crazzee: Uhm, boltguns are guns that shoot bullets. Large, APHE bullets, sure, but not rockets. That's what a rocket launcher is for. Also, 40k marines are equally adept at close combat and ranged combat, are ya gettin' them confused with the (w)impy guard who're useless at anything other than shooting? Blood Angels and Space Wolves preferring c.c, in fact. I'm looking forward to the game myself. It'll make master chef, marcus feelix and all the other pretenders to the Space Marine throne wet their pants with shame.

 

[WolfThomas]

Starship Trooper marines were gunho redneck idiots.

W40k marines were awesome.

Maybe in the film, in the book they were a noble completely voluntary force of the most intelligent and physically fit humans in the universe. In power armour with jetpacks, flamers (before 40k) and nuke.

And they were fired on to the surface on planet in capsule before space marines, they were also so hardcore that the capsule broke open in the atmosphere and they controlled their descent with parachutes and their jet pack.

They were so effective that with 400 metres between each solider was considered fighting "shoulder to shoulder".

Mobile infantry=Guardsmen. Get over it. The mobile infantry are humans, well-trained, but still S3 T3 I3 BS3 WS3 Ld7. Admitedly they have power armour in the book of Starship Troopers, but that's still a man inside their

Much as I loathe to say it, but pound for pound a guardsman is not going to kill a space marine. And so neither is the mobile infantry.

Yes, they get mini-nukes. So? Guardsmen get tanks the size of a small city, flamethrowers and do not get radiation poisioning. Deathstrike FTW.

Have you read the books, the description of what a mobile infantryman can do is amazing.

Theres a longer quote I can't remember or find on the internet.

"Our suits give us better eyes, better ears, stronger backs (to carry heavier weapons and more ammo), better legs, more intelligence (in the military meaning...), more firepower, greater endurance, less vulnerability.

A suit isn't a space suit - although it can serve as one. it is not primarily armor - although the Knights of the Round Table were not armored as well as we are. It isn't a tank - but a single M.I. [Mobile Infantry] private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted..."

He then goes on to say the only effective way to kill them is to bomb the planet they are on orbitally, "like burning down a house to kill fleas". That they could kill everyone on a planet of billions in a few hours or if they had to they could gather up safely every left handed redhead in the population.

WH40K SM > Mobile Infantry.
Stronger, faster, MUCH SMARTER, better weapons and armour and equipment, more purposeful motivation other than "HUR HUR, KILL DEM BUGZ!".
I mean, cmon. Why don't the future military have tanks?? Or at least APCs. No. Instead the Mobile(?) Infantry gotta walk everywhere and DIE ALOT. It takes 6 MIs to kill 1 bug. It takes 467 heretics to kill a Space Marine. If he's not looking. And in the shower.

P.S: Space Marines (According to the Black Library novels) have 3 lungs, 2 hearts and can eat anything that's even slighty edible.

In the book they are called mobile because they are shot onto the surface of planets and have epic jetpacks. They are actually better equipped then space marines. A dozen could destroy the infrastructure of a city of millions.

Rules wise, the movie marine rules are closer to what the marines should be, and, the Inquisitor rules are also close to what the marines should be.

I havnt read anything about Starship Troopers so I cant really comment on them. Though the dudes in the movie were pretty fearless.

That book was so good for me because despite Mandela being expertly trained to kill, more than a match for a space marine in a powersuit, he never came across that way to the reader due to his pacifist leanings.

 

[WolfLordAndy]

As you might be able to tell from my avatar, I've always loved the whole Marine stuff. Space Wolves mostly, as they're vikings in space, with big guns and tanks. Unlike the less charismatic chapters like Dark Angels and Ultramarines (Blood Angels were pretty cool, and I liked what they did with the whole Black Templar Crusades)

Space marines use to be awesome in the lore, but from what I can tell, the lore is becoming more like the game so they can pretend its all balanced. But I've always hated the way they change the lore. The necrons were originally an Anchient human creation that had become corrupted, but they later added all the C'tan stuff (then somehow got the Eldar gods involved, and the Cold Ones, and suggested at the links that the WH world is infact a planet inside the Eye of Terror...)

I've never read starship troopers so can't overly judge, but I've always found the ones in the film to be most likened to the Storm troopers from IG, the elite ones that had the overcharged flashlights and the carapace armour (and the new ones actually look like them!) In the Starship troopers series they did add in the armoured exo-suits that were Dreadnought-ish, as well as terminator style robots to help support the troops, that were pretty cool, and would no doubt kick a marines ass. If they would kick a Marine Dreadnought ass thats up for debate however.

I like the different takes on marines, some are good, some are bad, some are ridiculous. But within the 40k universe itself, yes, Space Marines are slowly being pussified.