Spector: Videogames Still "Comic Books" and "Cartoons"

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More Fun To Compute

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Denmarkian said:
<a href=http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=united+states+households>Wolfram Alpha says there are approximately 105.2 million households in the united states.

Nintendo <a href=http://www.mcvuk.com/news/40374/US-Wii-sales-pass-30m>just announced that in the US, the Wii system has just hit the lifetime unit sales figure of 30 million.

In almost 4 years, only one third of the estimated households in the US have bought one.

Based on those numbers, the Wii does not have mainstream appeal. Looks like Nintendo isn't doing a very good job of proving me wrong then, eh?
One third of households is a huge success.

Wii has sold more than 70 million units worldwide.

The most popular Zynga title supposedly had more than 70 million users.

Davinci Code by Dan Brown apparently sold 80 million which is a bit more. You can't tell me that Dan Brown does not appeal to the mainstream.
 

Snotnarok

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I'm lost here, video games make more money than movies often enough. I know plenty of people who play them, including my father and hell my neighbors grandfather did till he passed away. I'm pretty sure that the people who have to change here are the ones who're dismissing them. They're the ones being ignorant not the industry.
 

MikailCaboose

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zombie711 said:
well I belive manga is still well and alive in the world of comics
Yes, but for the most part that's East, not West. Even in the west for the most part (well, outside of select groups I associate with and places like the Escapist), manga is a little shunned, and gets lumped in with anime/manga stereotypes.
 

For.I.Am.Mad

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There is something DEEPLY wrong with comic books, shit's disturbing really. And the average person isn't as stupid as you think, and you're not nearly as enlightened as you think. Average Joe has money, lot's of it and you have to start respecting that sooner or later. And if that means no more trailers where kryptonite balls are stuffed in a dead Wonder Woman's mouth, I'm all for that.

The worse thing that can happen to the games industry is to end up like the comics industry. Angry and bitter for no reason, in a closet jerking off to dead women they see on Law and Order intros. Craving for attention while it's bigger brother steals all it's ideas to make movies.
 
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Colonel Alzheimer said:
I think what he's saying implies that the point of gaming is to provide a thought-provoking experience, which, in my opinion, completely misses the point. The majority of games can not be thought-provoking out of necessity, because by definition a game means that you, at some point, have to stop watching the characters think about things and actually do something.
Yes, but what about creating meaning through gameplay? Every medium is using its own unique thing to create meaning. Painting does it through representation or abstraction, books do it with words, architecture through shapes, movies through montage and games through gameplay.

Spector is not passing some kind of judgment on the value of comic books, he is only stating the oblivious fact that comic books and cartoons are stuck in some cultural ghetto. You can cover your ears and scream "lalalala they are too dumb to understand how awesome comic books are!", but this won't change the fact that the mainstream audience won't care for comic books and cartoons... until they are turned into movies.

Movies could have ended up like comic boos at a certain point in time, but thanks to critics and people not very different from Spector, they evolved beyond what they were doing in 10's and 20's and diversified again and again. Games do have a lot of catching up do to if they do not want to fall in the same cultural ghetto. It's sadly too late to change the social perception of comic books, but maybe we still have time to change the social perception of video games by making it something that will both attract a mainstream audience, keep an highly informed fan (some may say hardcore) audience hooked, tackle important issues, and they can only do that by being more diversified.

We should look at movies not to emulate them (Heavy Rain), but to learn from its history while carving our own with what makes the videoludic medium unique.
 

Logic 0

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We need more folks like Mr.spector to help make more fun games where you could do anything instead of being forced to pay way to much for what is fundamentaly the same expirence over and over again.
 

Denmarkian

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More Fun To Compute said:
One third of households is a huge success.

Wii has sold more than 70 million units worldwide.

The most popular Zynga title supposedly had more than 70 million users.

Davinci Code by Dan Brown apparently sold 80 million which is a bit more. You can't tell me that Dan Brown does not appeal to the mainstream.
I'm not talking about success. I'm talking about mainstream appeal.

And the worldwide sales figure is meaningless, as there are over 7 BILLION people in the world and trying to estimate market penetration based on "worldwide sales" when approximately 30% of the world's people don't have a television set is a stupid idea.

And thanks for bringing in a completely unrelated random statistic that happens to have the same value as your previous one. Is it 70 million monthly users in the US? Or is it worldwide? If it's in the US alone, there are over 310 million people in the US, 70 is less than one fourth of that. If it's worldwide, again that's meaningless.



Look, mainstream appeal is my point. To say it a different way, video games will never have mainstream appeal because they are not easy to talk about with other people.

You can talk about a book you've read, a movie you've seen, your favorite TV show, cook book, furniture store, or brand of bubble gum. You can talk about these things with ANYONE in the rest of the world because they will have the exact same physical experience as you did. When they watch the movie, they'll see events unfold in the same sequence you did, they can buy the same couch, chew the same bubble gum, etc. You can then talk more about your personal experience of doing these things, why you like one person or fabric, how you compulsively cheered out loud when the main character in your current book got out of a tight spot in the nick of time. You extrapolate on how your life experiences colored your experience of the book, or movie, or chair, and you can compare that with the other person, but you'll both be talking about the same fixed, physical object.

Try and talk to someone about how you got your unique-drop, double-bladed axe of flesh-bane in the Woods of Fendurian from a Warg boss in the RPG you're playing.

That's about all you can say. It's as interesting as saying, "Oh, I found a $10 bill on the ground yesterday." And will spur as much conversation.



Playing a video game is all about personally experiencing the story that's written. Most video games have really shitty writing. Mostly, I think, because everything revolves around the singular experiences of the player character. You can't have a rich story when everything that happens is directly related to the actions of one person, or group of people.

For example, I'm re-reading the Lord of the Rings right now. Try to imagine a video game where you are playing Frodo. You'd lose more than half of the story after the Fellowship of the Ring because you'd be trying to get to Mordor, and learn nothing about Rohan or Gondor, save for what you might learn from Faramir, and then struggle through exhaustion just to get your finger bitten off right before actually throwing the ring into Mount Doom. Everything about the Ents, the Rohirrim, Denethor and his relationship with his sons, the battle of Pelenor Fields, and the destruction of Minas Morgul; everything else you'd have to be told about by someone who is not the player character, and that would just ruin the pacing of the game.

If you don't like reading all of the ancillary text in games, then you'd have a hard time playing a game based on The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy because Douglas Adams spends pages upon pages making little asides about various bit characters, or the history of planets that Arthur Dent might find himself on, much to his own chagrin.

You can't tell a story in a video game the same way you can in the passive mediums. This is why I say that video games will never achieve mainstream appeal.
 

Syntax Error

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Yes. We don't need any more photorealism. If I wanted photorealistic, I'd go out. Plus, with sufficiently advanced technology, photorealism, when combined with war would NOT BE PRETTY. This is also the reason why I'm addicted to Borderlands, for some reason.
 

More Fun To Compute

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@Denmarkian

I think that you are overstating how hard it is to talk to people about video games. With the Wii video game conversation possibilities opened up with even more people. What is mainstream appeal if doesn't translate to people wanting it and what is a better measure of how much people want it than sales figures? Dan Brown books are cheaper than the Wii but it has comparable sales figures. People talk about Dan Brown and they talk about the Wii. I don't get the distinction between percentage of households being valid and sales figures being invalid. What percentage of households would make Wii mainstream? 50%? 80%? What if some people visit houses of people who own a Wii or see a commercial on the television between reruns of Friends?

Do you think that something like Sex and the City is something that you can talk to anyone about because it is a popular mainstream show? I can eliminate roughly one half of the worlds population quickly when thinking about who would want to talk about it and I'm not sure that all of the other half know or care about it. It doesn't mean anything that it is in a medium that supposedly allows more nuance and emotion in narrative.

Also:

Lords of Midnight. Old game inspired by LotR where you take turns guiding a weak character on a solo quest and organising a military force of Lord characters who distract the enemies armies and stage a defence.

Hitchiker's Guide was made into a text adventure by infocom and Douglas Adams. Not surprisingly, it had text about various bits and pieces.
 

Lullabye

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.....hm, do I agree? No. fuck society(oh, look at all that angst) I want Awesome, awe-inspiring, beatuiful, creative games. If I want more realistic, grounded and interactive experiences where I get better by putting more time and effort into something and hopefully get something back out of it, then I would GO TO WORK.
 

noble cookie

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Breaker deGodot said:
Space Jawa said:
What, is there something wrong with Comic Books and Cartoons? I happen to like Comic Books and Cartoons, thank you very much.
You're kind of missing the point. Of course WE like comics and cartoons, but Spector is talking about the average person (read: moron), who thinks that comics and cartoons are kids stuff.
And this, this is why i hate people. I'm childish because i watch anime? Please, if you actually understood what it was about. You would see why it's not so childish after all.

Mehmemeh kingdum harts haz disny stuf init!!1 My generation doesn't know what quality is!
OMG JUSTIN BEIBER AND SOME RANDOM RAPPER AND COD AND HALO RAWR MEHMEHMEH!!1

There, my rant is over.
 

BlindMessiah94

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I don't think comic books have become marginalized. Due in large part to this fad of making movie adaptations, less mainstream comics have been seeing the silver screen, and I think a lot more people understand that comics aren't just "for kids" anymore.

Just look at The Watchmen. The ONLY graphic novel to make it on Time Magazines Top 100 books of ALL TIME.

It also sold like hotcakes once the movie was announced. Many many people I knew read it just because of the movie and the press it got. I don't think comics have become as marginalized as claimed by the article.

I also feel the same about video games. There are so many different types, styles, genres, etc, and it is such a huge industry that I find it hard pressed to believe that "most people" think they are just toys or something. Look at the Wii and all it's fitness crap. Or the DS and it's brain games. Those alone have made people realize that video games are more than just a distraction.

Although I do agree that we need to quit it with the space marine games already.
 

Nick Holmgren

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Realism is a style. You can't just say, that X style will never be good just because you aren't fond of it. Given a few years heavy rain's spiritual successor may full well prove that video games and movies can occupy the same space.
 

oranger

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You know, if he wasn't being powered down and put into his storage unit at night, and working on disney junk during the day, I -would- take animatronic spector seriously. really, I would.
 

UberNoodle

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Well, really it is only Western culture which disparages comics and animation for the sake of ageism or elitism. In Japanese culture, for example, illustration and animation, and gaming, are seen as examples of the many forms that expression can take.
 

FloodOne

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Loonerinoes said:
Videogames are actually a VERY young medium if you compare them to comic books and cartoons, which have been around for something like 90 years or so, comics even longer than that. In comparison videogames have what...30 years?

Then there's also the thing of 'copying what works'. So long as big time publishers will be unwilling to take risks, I'm pretty sure videogames will continue to be regarded much like comics and cartoons.

Which to be honest kind of doesn't bother me in the slightest. Because I've read and seen cartoons and comics that put most movies to shame. Just as I've played videogames far deeper than even a good book could go.
I was with you until that last sentence. To date, nothing can compare to the stories told in a well crafted novel or short story. That's what thousands of years to hone it's craft will do for it though.
 

theultimateend

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Denmarkian said:
McMarbles said:
Denmarkian said:
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Mr. Spector. Video games are not like cartoons and comic books, because they will never develop mainstream appeal. Comic books and Cartoons have begun to, we have "Graphic Novels" and "Animation Features" already, and authors are experimenting more and more with the content that can be rendered in those mediums.
Nintendo's entire business model seems based around proving you wrong.

I understand they've been rather successful with it.
<a href=http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=united+states+households>Wolfram Alpha says there are approximately 105.2 million households in the united states.

Nintendo <a href=http://www.mcvuk.com/news/40374/US-Wii-sales-pass-30m>just announced that in the US, the Wii system has just hit the lifetime unit sales figure of 30 million.

In almost 4 years, only one third of the estimated households in the US have bought one.

Based on those numbers, the Wii does not have mainstream appeal. Looks like Nintendo isn't doing a very good job of proving me wrong then, eh?
I don't get it?

Since when did 1 in 3 people liking your stuff not become mainstream?

I can't think of many things outside of biological necessities (like breathing or sex) that have higher approval ratings than that.
 

Denmarkian

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theultimateend said:
I don't get it?

Since when did 1 in 3 people liking your stuff not become mainstream?

I can't think of many things outside of biological necessities (like breathing or sex) that have higher approval ratings than that.
Because 1 in 3 is not a statistical majority, of course.

How else would you measure mainstream appeal?
 

ZippyDSMlee

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TheDukester said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
TheDukester said:
Maybe the shoddy storylines have something to do with the fact that most gaming studios feel that they don't need a dedicated writing team. Or it could have something to do with how male-dominated the industry seems to be.
HA! Have you watched any prime time TV show lately? Its just as bad!
I said writers, not screen writers. Everyone's focusing on the leaps and bounds of the technological aspects of videogames, but the writing has barely budged. Every storytelling medium needs its own style of writing; you can't just take a writer from one genre and put him in something else completely different.

Screen writing does not equal videogame writing does not equal novel writing does not equal short story writing, etc. etc.
Meh writing < mechanics

Again its the same basic writing as other media hell games would be better served if mechanics got more attention than bare glance before the Gdamn beta is released to the public...