Spoilers - The Witcher 3 and why games can't do endings well

[endtherapture]

I've just finished The Witcher 3, and wow what a game. One of my favourite RPGs ever. However, even this wonderful masterpiece falls prey to the same problem so many games of the past have - a rushed ending sequence/third act. Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, The Witcher 2, Pillars of Eternity. KOTOR2, Deus Ex Human Revolution, Metal Gear Solid 2 - all decent games that just can't get their climax or ending right and end up feeling rushed.

For The Witcher 3, the game was lengthy and well made up until Kaer Morhen - after which point Act 3 is kinda rushed over. The main villains, Eredin and the Wild Hunt, aren't really developed that well. Neither is Avallach, and the climactic battle with them feels like a kinda pasted together collection of set pieces and boss battles with not much coherency - not to mention the White Frost section of the game with Ciri which breaks lore. Hopefully this part of the game can be improved with another Enhanced Edition, like they did with The Witcher 2.

Fortunately for The Witcher 3, the epilogues to end the game are detailed and emotional, with a high production value simply not present in act 3, so you leave the game feeling suitably impressed. For other games, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect 3, KOTOR2, Deus Ex the endings of the game don't have that level of polish so can leave you feeling dissatisfied.

Why do so many games have problems with running out of steam by the ending, and giving us rushed and unfinished third acts? Why is the ending of the name not crafted with as much care as the opening of the game? Some games (Dragon Age Origins for instance), do get this right, so how comes so many games huff and puff by the end instead of treating it properly? Do you think this is endemic in the games industry, and one of the main things developers should improve?

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Witcher 3 goes through some weird pacing issues once you find Ciri. Everything before that works well. But I didn't know if the battle at Kaer Mohren was going to be the big finale or not. I was glad that it wasn't the end, but I didn't know what to expect from then on. Act 3 was definitely rushed. There could have been a lot more meat there. I think they should have left the coronation of Skellige's next king or queen a part of the main plot in Act 3 and tie some story missions and consequences to those events. I think it would have worked out a lot better.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I thought Act 3 had its moments, although I agree it felt rushed in places. It could obviously use some smoothing out with a DLC or small expansion.

I'm not sure I would say it "wasn't done well" though. I found it pretty satisfying. Possibly because of the epilogue, as you suggest. I preferred to, for instance, Origins, which was a very traditional "big bad" battle with telegraphed pathos awkwardly strapped to it.

I think in gaming you are frequently saddled with subpar narrative material, so the ending (by necessity) will also be questionable. When there has been little or no thematic material, dubious character development, etc, it becomes hard to "tie it all together" because there isn't much there to tie together in the first place. It's just a final gaudy set piece. I think game makers are aware, and they're trying things to shake it up, with various degrees of success. They either try to sidestep it completely with an 11th hour ass-pull (ME3), or reduce the scale to something more human (Witcher 3), or become philosophical (Bioshock Infinite, Deus Ex: HR). Then you have your utterly unambitious games like DA:I kickin' it old school ("We're off to kill the demon!" "We killed the demon, yay!" *Post demon killing party with sex*). Some people prefer that.

 

[EternallyBored]

Witcher 3 goes through some weird pacing issues once you find Ciri. Everything before that works well. But I didn't know if the battle at Kaer Mohren was going to be the big finale or not. I was glad that it wasn't the end, but I didn't know what to expect from then on. Act 3 was definitely rushed. There could have been a lot more meat there. I think they should have left the coronation of Skellige's next king or queen a part of the main plot in Act 3 and tie some story missions and consequences to those events. I think it would have worked out a lot better.

Supposedly there was a lot of late game stuff cut from the final release, including things like characters, battle scenes, and plot threads. I haven't read the books, but from what I've heard it retcons one of the major plot threads from them in a way that makes little sense. The Wild Hunt was originally going to invade Novigrad following Kaer Morhen, and the missing Wild Hunt General and Ge'els were supposedly much more integral to the plot. Pretty much everything after Kaer Morhen was cut down or streamlined for the final game. It's easy to see it, as the Bloody Baron quest line seems to have a downright glacial pacing compared to almost the entirety of the final act where they just start throwing really important characters from the previous games and books at you for 5 minute cameos and then the Wild Hunt gets beaten down like some two-bit Saturday Morning cartoon villains.

It felt rushed, but my only really major gripe was:

Spoiler

The White Frost and how that turns from a looming vague threat into, "the Wild Hunt is dealt with, now Ciri is going to resolve an existential threat in a few scenes, hope you had that snowball fight with her otherwise she's probably going to die". From what I know of others who've read the books, this makes zero sense as the White Frost is apparently climate change due to axial tilt of the planet, it's not something you really beat.

The whole prophecy mentioned in the game and the books is also not technically about Ciri, she was supposed to give birth to the child that would save the world from the White Frost, and even then, the saving was supposed to be the child opening a portal to another world and getting everyone through, not just flat out stopping it. This is apparently mentioned constantly in the books, and is the whole reason groups like Nilfgaard, the sorceresses lodge, and the Wild Hunt are even after her: to force her to have a child which will fulfill the prophecy.

That coupled with a lot of the cut content that makes pretty much all the branching paths in Witcher one and two pointless, makes this something that is a great self-contained game, but really kind of a shitty sequel.

 

[endtherapture]

Witcher 3 goes through some weird pacing issues once you find Ciri. Everything before that works well. But I didn't know if the battle at Kaer Mohren was going to be the big finale or not. I was glad that it wasn't the end, but I didn't know what to expect from then on. Act 3 was definitely rushed. There could have been a lot more meat there. I think they should have left the coronation of Skellige's next king or queen a part of the main plot in Act 3 and tie some story missions and consequences to those events. I think it would have worked out a lot better.

Supposedly there was a lot of late game stuff cut from the final release, including things like characters, battle scenes, and plot threads. I haven't read the books, but from what I've heard it retcons one of the major plot threads from them in a way that makes little sense. The Wild Hunt was originally going to invade Novigrad following Kaer Morhen, and the missing Wild Hunt General and Ge'els were supposedly much more integral to the plot. Pretty much everything after Kaer Morhen was cut down or streamlined for the final game. It's easy to see it, as the Bloody Baron quest line seems to have a downright glacial pacing compared to almost the entirety of the final act where they just start throwing really important characters from the previous games and books at you for 5 minute cameos and then the Wild Hunt gets beaten down like some two-bit Saturday Morning cartoon villains.

It felt rushed, but my only really major gripe was:

Spoiler

The White Frost and how that turns from a looming vague threat into, "the Wild Hunt is dealt with, now Ciri is going to resolve an existential threat in a few scenes, hope you had that snowball fight with her otherwise she's probably going to die". From what I know of others who've read the books, this makes zero sense as the White Frost is apparently climate change due to axial tilt of the planet, it's not something you really beat.

The whole prophecy mentioned in the game and the books is also not technically about Ciri, she was supposed to give birth to the child that would save the world from the White Frost, and even then, the saving was supposed to be the child opening a portal to another world and getting everyone through, not just flat out stopping it. This is apparently mentioned constantly in the books, and is the whole reason groups like Nilfgaard, the sorceresses lodge, and the Wild Hunt are even after her: to force her to have a child which will fulfill the prophecy.

That coupled with a lot of the cut content that makes pretty much all the branching paths in Witcher one and two pointless, makes this something that is a great self-contained game, but really kind of a shitty sequel.

There's a bunch of dialogue from the trailers (mainly from Eredin) that is completely cut in the game. I personally thought he was handled poorly as a villain in TW3, and was actually far more interesting in TW1 and was actually a pretty terrifying adversary there. In TW3, he's a challenging boss battle, but nothing really compared to Imrileth earlier in the game. Caranthir is also a bit of a pushover along with the generic Wild Hunt warriors.

But yeah the White Frost was pretty disappointing and extremely rushed. It made for an emotional ending and epilogue, but in terms of plot definitely did not make sense 100% and was very rushed.

I'm really hoping they can restore some of the cut content, as everything up to Kaer Morhen was pretty good, and Act 3 was passable but sort of disjointed.

I thought Act 3 had its moments, although I agree it felt rushed in places. It could obviously use some smoothing out with a DLC or small expansion.

I'm not sure I would say it "wasn't done well" though. I found it pretty satisfying. Possibly because of the epilogue, as you suggest. I preferred to, for instance, Origins, which was a very traditional "big bad" battle with telegraphed pathos awkwardly strapped to it.

I think in gaming you are frequently saddled with subpar narrative material, so the ending (by necessity) will also be questionable. When there has been little or no thematic material, dubious character development, etc, it becomes hard to "tie it all together" because there isn't much there to tie together in the first place. It's just a final gaudy set piece. I think game makers are aware, and they're trying things to shake it up, with various degrees of success. They either try to sidestep it completely with an 11th hour ass-pull (ME3), or reduce the scale to something more human (Witcher 3), or become philosophical (Bioshock Infinite, Deus Ex: HR). Then you have your utterly unambitious games like DA:I kickin' it old school ("We're off to kill the demon!" "We killed the demon, yay!" *Post demon killing party with sex*). Some people prefer that.

I'd just like a normal ending to games. They're either rushed, or at odds with the general themes for the game. I do understand endings are generally pretty hard to do, but in literature most books do have decent endings. There's not often twist endings and you're generally left satisfied by the end of stories - even take the end of epic series like His Dark Materials and the endings are satisfying and consistent with the themes of the story. Games just seem to have a problem with it.

I do think the actual ending of TW3 was exceptional and well made. I was bawling my eyes out throughout the whole sequence (I got the bittersweet ending) and it hit the right emotional notes. It's just a shame the actual climax to the plot wasn't as well made, although as you say, Act 3 did have some good moments.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I think the third act and ending of Mass Effect 2 is one of the big reasons why it's is one of my favorite games of all time. The pacing was just perfect. So it's definitely possible to accomplish something like that. It just takes a whole lot of effort and focus. Maybe the free roaming aspect of The Witcher 3 took something away from that focus. Mass Effect 2 is a lot more linear.

 

[Saetha]

I think the third act and ending of Mass Effect 2 is one of the big reasons why it's is one of my favorite games of all time. The pacing was just perfect. So it's definitely possible to accomplish something like that. It just takes a whole lot of effort and focus. Maybe the free roaming aspect of The Witcher 3 took something away from that focus. Mass Effect 2 is a lot more linear.

ME2 had a great ending, yeah, but that's mostly because it's one, giant "To be continued." I think it's a little unfair to stack it up against endings that were supposed to tie off the entire story, rather than assure the player that it isn't over.

I mean, yeah, it was very emotional and very well done. But it didn't have to hit all the same points as the ending of a self-contained game, of the end of a series has to. It'd be fairer to compare it to the likes of Inquisition or Witcher 2.

Or DX:HR, apparently, although I feel like Eidos hedged their bets with that ending, leaving it open-ended enough to justify a sequel while still "tying up" the plot in case the game flopped. Probably why it was such an awkward ending.

 

[DarkhoIlow]

@OP: I am pretty much have the same thoughts about Witcher 3..it's one of my favorite RPG's that I have ever played and even I felt that the transition from Act 2 to 3 was way too rushed.

I expected Act 2 to be as big as Act 1 and then Act 3 to be the smallest of them all, because of the impending White Frost/Wild Hunt.

Although the epilogue was very satisfying and emotional to me seeing Geralt and Ciri bond more before sending her to become Empress..manly tears were shed. I'm very happy that if you were a good parent figure to her you get to shape the outcome of the epilogue.

Temeria restored, Ciri Empress, Cerys brings peace to Skellige and unites the clans and Radovid's dead and Geralt settled down with Yen...very satisfied with my ending.

 

[endtherapture]

I think the third act and ending of Mass Effect 2 is one of the big reasons why it's is one of my favorite games of all time. The pacing was just perfect. So it's definitely possible to accomplish something like that. It just takes a whole lot of effort and focus. Maybe the free roaming aspect of The Witcher 3 took something away from that focus. Mass Effect 2 is a lot more linear.

To be fair, Mass Effect 2 has the benefit of being the second part of a three part story, so its third act is still the middle of the story, so it doesn't need to wrap anything up and can leave that stuff to Mass Effect 3 to try to do.

@OP: I am pretty much have the same thoughts about Witcher 3..it's one of my favorite RPG's that I have ever played and even I felt that the transition from Act 2 to 3 was way too rushed.

I expected Act 2 to be as big as Act 1 and then Act 3 to be the smallest of them all, because of the impending White Frost/Wild Hunt.

Although the epilogue was very satisfying and emotional to me seeing Geralt and Ciri bond more before sending her to become Empress..manly tears were shed. I'm very happy that if you were a good parent figure to her you get to shape the outcome of the epilogue.

Temeria restored, Ciri Empress, Cerys brings peace to Skellige and unites the clans and Radovid's dead..very satisfied with my ending.

Oh and of course, retire with Triss in Kovir. It was a great ending to the game, I loved the section in the snowy White Orchard having one last day with Ciri. Even if the climactic battle on Skillege felt disjointed, that final section in White Orchard was so lovingly crafted, that's the conclusion of the game you remember, rather that the clusterfuck that came before.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I think the third act and ending of Mass Effect 2 is one of the big reasons why it's is one of my favorite games of all time. The pacing was just perfect. So it's definitely possible to accomplish something like that. It just takes a whole lot of effort and focus. Maybe the free roaming aspect of The Witcher 3 took something away from that focus. Mass Effect 2 is a lot more linear.

To be fair, Mass Effect 2 has the benefit of being the second part of a three part story, so its third act is still the middle of the story, so it doesn't need to wrap anything up and can leave that stuff to Mass Effect 3 to try to do.

True, but the pacing of the third act is the real problem. That has nothing to do with whether the game is second in a trilogy or not. It's all down to writing and mission design. I was perfectly happy with the actual ending of The Witcher 3, it was beautiful. I'm just not happy with the buildup that lead to the ending. It didn't feel final until it was suddenly final. In Mass Effect 2 you knew from the start what the final mission was going to be like. You've been working towards it that entire time. The whole game is kind of a buildup. That's what everything in The Witcher 3 after finding Ciri should have been like. The Witcher 2 had the same pacing problem, actually. CDPR did add more side missions in the Enhanced Edition, but that didn't really fix the problem. It just gave you something to do in the third act besides the main story and a few side quests.

 

[endtherapture]

I think the third act and ending of Mass Effect 2 is one of the big reasons why it's is one of my favorite games of all time. The pacing was just perfect. So it's definitely possible to accomplish something like that. It just takes a whole lot of effort and focus. Maybe the free roaming aspect of The Witcher 3 took something away from that focus. Mass Effect 2 is a lot more linear.

To be fair, Mass Effect 2 has the benefit of being the second part of a three part story, so its third act is still the middle of the story, so it doesn't need to wrap anything up and can leave that stuff to Mass Effect 3 to try to do.

True, but the pacing of the third act is the real problem. I was perfectly happy with the actual ending of The Witcher 3, just not with the buildup that lead to the ending.

Yeah that's my problem. There was actually quite a lot to do in Act 3, when you think about it - there were quests with Triss, Yen, Avallach, Philippa and Ciri - but they were nowhere near as long as the often (overly) long questlines in Act 1. Similarly, the political situation on Skillege with Mad Logos was like...resolved in a single fight with no consequences but the talk of civil war, the war with Nilfgaard didn't go anywhere at all either.

Then we got to the climactic battle on Undvik which was incredibly rushed. After fighting some Wild Hunt mooks you fight Caranthir, get a cutscene, swim to the surface, get another cutscene, fight some more mooks, fight Eredin, then ride off to stop the apocalypse. It was so rushed especially since I set aside a couple of hours to play it and then it was over so abruptly. Also Crach gets killed off in a cutscene and no one mourns for him, and Avallach completely disappears and the whole White Frost thing seems completely tacked on. It's pretty clear that CDProjekt ran out of time for Act 3 which is a shame.

 

[The Madman]

Like I mentioned in another topic, I found Witcher 3's ending to be satisfying. But with that said I do agree that especially towards the end it has some pacing issues. A few more quests here and there, maybe a pause to breath that didn't feel like I was wasting precious time, that would have all been much appreciated. Give the villains more of a chance to be fleshed out, give a few highlights towards the minor characters that might not be seen again, give the players a chance to better understand what's about to happen...

Then it occurs to me that I'm critiquing a 100+ hour game for not being long enough, and it makes me realize how much I enjoyed the game and that maybe a bit part of why the ending felt rushed was just because I didn't want it to end. And really if that's one of my biggest complaints for a game then the developers have definitely done something very right.

So while the ending wasn't perfect I'll go on record saying it was definitely good enough. No disappointment here save for the fact that it had to end at all, which is a shame because it felt like there was still so much left to explore, see, and do in that world.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Then we got to the climactic battle on Undvik which was incredibly rushed. After fighting some Wild Hunt mooks you fight Caranthir, get a cutscene, swim to the surface, get another cutscene, fight some more mooks, fight Eredin, then ride off to stop the apocalypse. It was so rushed especially since I set aside a couple of hours to play it and then it was over so abruptly. Also Crach gets killed off in a cutscene and no one mourns for him, and Avallach completely disappears and the whole White Frost thing seems completely tacked on. It's pretty clear that CDProjekt ran out of time for Act 3 which is a shame.

Yeah there were some definite pacing issues (and bugs) during that sequence for me. I feel like it is something that could be pretty easily fixed with just a few transitional cut scenes. Shouldn't take more than 2-3 minutes of screen time altogether, just to smooth one sequence of events into the next. So you see Crach arrive and his fight, say, instead of "Oh it's Crach! Oh he's dead...that's a shame!".

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

If anyone has written something in their life, be it a story, novel, or even a D&D campaign, the biggest hurdle (in my experience) has to be the third act. The ending. Its a ***** to tie up the story threads without bogging down the pacing, keep the story on a track that doesn't end up becoming a jarring tonal shift (or a complete 180 swerve that doesn't work)... Ending stories definitively is the single most harrowing task in creative writing, doubly so when it comes to sci-fi or fantasy works because the damn audience tends to be super nitpicky, pedantic and extremely unforgiving and judgmental. Not disparaging the audience, just an observation after years of hearing endless diatribes against things like Mass Effect 3 (as an example, not saying anyone's right or wrong).
So taking that into account, I'm way more forgiving towards weak third acts in stories because of my experiences trying to write them myself. I've had a lot of great D&D campaigns, and I'm so glad for the players helping me to make the end of those campaigns work, keeping track of details I may have forgotten about or inspiring little improv throwaways that turn into major plot devices.
I firmly believe that no writer is an island, and having collaboration is paramount. Once something becomes big enough that it has a fanbase, it would behoove the writer(s) to "listen" to the audience. By listen I don't necessarily mean give into their demands, but rather be mindful of the audience. A few writers I've known who are successful are also big on crediting fans for reminding them of shit they forgot about.
I think thats the biggest disconnect in gaming, that the people involved in the writing process and creative direction are either unaware of the fanbase or totally ignore it, with maybe a handful who care what the audience thinks. As I said I don't think it should ever get to a point that the mob rules the direction of a creative work, especially games, but there needs to be a lot more respect from the publisher area to the people who actually buy and enjoy the games. Its just one problem in the industry and it can't remain that way forever.
Games are not developed in a vacuum no matter how much secrecy a company tries to have, gamers are more connected than ever. The time is now for publishers to pull their heads out of the sand and realize gamers care about their hobbies.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I do wish that more games would be happy with a nice, normal "the good guys win then go home for cake" ending more often. I mean take Mass Effect 3 for example, was there any real reason why they couldn't just have the player press the Reaper self destruct button and go home wounded but alive or have a hidden true ending option hidden in the presented 3 choice endings, Persona 4 style. I know that's what I was looking for at least. It seems like a twist/dark ending for its own sake instead of actually enhancing the game's story with a coherent ending tying up all of the themes of the game. See again: Persona 4.

I kinda want to bring up Dragonage 2's ending cuz I really liked it because I understood it. It's a story of how a heroic badass of the land ultimately can't do shit to save his beloved city from falling into chaos, all told through gameplay. Now why this story had to be in a sequel to a game that was literally a walking bag of copy pasted WRPG tropes with no original thoughts in its head (not a bad walking bag of tropes, mind) is another matter entirely. I feel like Bioware was going through an experimental phase with their endings post Dragonage 1, with varied amounts of success.

I find that most good Visual Novels have their shit together with endings, they have like 50 hours of story so they have fuck all excuse for a badly written ending. The only ending I didn't really like recently was the ending to Umineko but that's probably because it could have ended in so many different ways and I had no idea what to expect, unless there's 2 endings and I missed one but I didn't get that vibe from it. That final choice you make is kind of for personal closure and a culmination of how you interpreted the game as a whole. Honestly I believe that if you asked two separate people about what the themes/points are in the latter half of Chiru they may give drastically different answers.

 

[EternallyBored]

Then we got to the climactic battle on Undvik which was incredibly rushed. After fighting some Wild Hunt mooks you fight Caranthir, get a cutscene, swim to the surface, get another cutscene, fight some more mooks, fight Eredin, then ride off to stop the apocalypse. It was so rushed especially since I set aside a couple of hours to play it and then it was over so abruptly. Also Crach gets killed off in a cutscene and no one mourns for him, and Avallach completely disappears and the whole White Frost thing seems completely tacked on. It's pretty clear that CDProjekt ran out of time for Act 3 which is a shame.

Yeah there were some definite pacing issues (and bugs) during that sequence for me. I feel like it is something that could be pretty easily fixed with just a few transitional cut scenes. Shouldn't take more than 2-3 minutes of screen time altogether, just to smooth one sequence of events into the next. So you see Crach arrive and his fight, say, instead of "Oh it's Crach! Oh he's dead...that's a shame!".

I ran into 2 big bugs during the final mission, one was in the run up to the Eredin fight where you run through the people fighting towards the ship, Geralt got stuck with his combat ready animation except not actually drawing his sword, so I couldn't attack anything whilst running around looking like I was holding an invisible sword.

The other I couldn't fix no matter how many times I reloaded, but it was a sound bug during the Eredin fight, it made it so my sword attacks and hits were totally silent, which really ruined the mood of the fight, not that it was a particularly spectacular fight to begin with. Eredin was disappointingly easy, Caranthir went out like a punk too, but at least he had some back up, Eredin was just so pathetic I could stand there and regen health faster than he could hurt me, and this wasn't on normal, I was doing this on Blood and Broken Bones difficulty. Difficulty throughout the game is an issue, the skills and leveling system is really poorly balanced, but it really shows in the final missions where you can sleep your way through the final battles and the final boss goes down so fast it makes you wonder why anyone was ever scared of the chump.

Crach was another sticking point, a character that is apparently in the books and gets development and scenes showing his friendship with Geralt in the game deserves at least a better death than what he got.

Still love the game, and at least the finale wasn't as lame as the final battle on Earth from ME3, but man it was a let down compared to the awesomeness of the first two acts.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I imagine it has something to do with the developers running out of time and money as production drags on. That's a problem for a lot of animation studios. They'll burn their budget early, so they have to start cutting corners in order to actually be able to finish with what they have left.