Sports, E-Sports, And Jobs!

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I miss the term "professional gaming." If it was good enough for pro Quake players, by god it should be good enough for pro LoL players. I could go into why I don't like calling anything that doesn't involve some degree of athleticism a "sport," but I know from experience that that's actually a less popular attitude around here than calling "anything competitive" a sport, even though that turns literally everything that has a skill ceiling which allows for room to improve one's skills into a "sport." Or even anything with plain unpredictable results.

 

[Yopaz]

sport
/spôrt/
Noun
An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

Sport definition, an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature.

Definitions of sport often (I say often, but I didn't see any who didn't) include a part about physical activity so based on that games aren't sport by definition. I think chess is still considered a game despite the fact that we actually respect those who do it on a professional level.

I prefer just to call it competitive gaming. Nothing wrong with it, or anyone who is involved. But I will always have more admiration towards athletes who train for real-world physical sports.

Why, though? As someone who gives no fuck about "physical sports" this mentality is mystifying to me. Running in a straight line for a few hundred meters, but doing it really fast, is somehow more impressive than strategizing a 20-to-60-minute war scenario and adapting to both the environment and opponents moves? How? These "real-world physical sports" generally require little to no intelligence. I fail to see what's so admirable about that. For fucks sake, just throw 20 balls onto the field, so those idiots will stop running after the one.

Woah woah woah woah woah...lets think about what you are saying. Hockey requires no thought? or football? I don't know how to respond to this.

Isn't the hypocrisy just delightful? JOCKS DON'T RESPECT US, WE DO SPORTS TOO. Closely followed by JOCKS ARE STUPID AND DON'T NEED TO THINK. Ignore and move on, it might lower your blood pressure (speaking from personal experience, not trying to insult).

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

By definition, video games aren't sports.

Does that actually matter? No.

 

[SomeLameStuff]

Sport definition, an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature.

Definitions of sport often (I say often, but I didn't see any who didn't) include a part about physical activity so based on that games aren't sport by definition. I think chess is still considered a game despite the fact that we actually respect those who do it on a professional level.

Chess HAS been recognized as a sport though. The definition is "skill OR physical prowess", Key word being "or". Chess doesn't have any physical strain involved, but requires skill, and so is recognized as a sport by the Olympic Committee. Same thing could apply to games too. And I'll slap anyone who insists that MOBA / ARTS games don't require skill.

 

[Yopaz]

Sport definition, an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature.

Definitions of sport often (I say often, but I didn't see any who didn't) include a part about physical activity so based on that games aren't sport by definition. I think chess is still considered a game despite the fact that we actually respect those who do it on a professional level.

Chess HAS been recognized as a sport though. The definition is "skill OR physical prowess", Key word being "or". Chess doesn't have any physical strain involved, but requires skill, and so is recognized as a sport by the Olympic Committee. Same thing could apply to games too. And I'll slap anyone who insists that MOBA / ARTS games don't require skill.

Yeah, one of my definitions used and, the other used or, that one you ignored... That said I agree with Richard Dawkins' view on definitions. They aren't really intended to cover all bases, but fluid in order to be applied to different circumstances. Oh well, I am stupid in the morning.

I still don't personally consider professional gaming a sport and even chess is heavily debated if it does in fact fit in there. I just don't see the point of fighting for these things to be recognized as sports. Consider it a sport if it's really that important to you.

 

[BlindTom]

I can't believe that there are people out there who think racing is a sport. You're not really doing anything you're just pressing buttons and turning a wheel.

While I think it's a silly sport, they drive at high speeds all the while maintaining control over the car and awareness of their surroundings. There's much more to racing than just "lol here comes another left turn". Making turns at such speeds would create G-forces no doubt and the adrenaline of being surrounded by other rolling metal boxes of doom puts a lot of stress on your mind I would think.

I absolutely agree. It would be interesting if we adopted "hard" and "taxing" as the qualifiers for a sport though. That would basically elevate anything we treat as a sport, to the level of sport, since the stress comes from the stakes. Shooting is an olympic sport, and as far as I can tell that's based even more arbitrarily on the fact that it's "hard" and has some close associations with the origin of the term "sport."

Basically it's all a little arbitrary innit? Some people differentiate between sports and games based on if they're played by teams or not. The real question for me is "Why is the term 'sport' held in higher regard than the term 'game?'" It's all just shit we do for fun and entertainment in the end, and forgetting that fact is dangerous.

 

[Bertylicious]

Snooker is not a sport but there isn't anything wrong with making a living out of it.

...

Well, okay, it is a little wrong and if one of my little cousins told me they wanted to go pro I would hope they were talking about prostitution.

I can't believe that there are people out there who think racing is a sport. You're not really doing anything you're just pressing buttons and turning a wheel.

While I think it's a silly sport, they drive at high speeds all the while maintaining control over the car and awareness of their surroundings. There's much more to racing than just "lol here comes another left turn". Making turns at such speeds would create G-forces no doubt and the adrenaline of being surrounded by other rolling metal boxes of doom puts a lot of stress on your mind I would think.

I absolutely agree. It would be interesting if we adopted "hard" and "taxing" as the qualifiers for a sport though. That would basically elevate anything we treat as a sport, to the level of sport, since the stress comes from the stakes. Shooting is an olympic sport, and as far as I can tell that's based even more arbitrarily on the fact that it's "hard" and has some close associations with the origin of the term "sport."

Basically it's all a little arbitrary innit? Some people differentiate between sports and games based on if they're played by teams or not. The real question for me is "Why is the term 'sport' held in higher regard than the term 'game?'" It's all just shit we do for fun and entertainment in the end, and forgetting that fact is dangerous.

I don't know a lot about motor sport, but didn't Nigel Mansell have to give up because he was too fat?

 

[SwimmingRock]

Well it's certainly no disrespect or discredit to them, but I don't see competitive gaming as being comparable to real-world sports. They're not on equal footing. Also, real-world sports do require intelligence, that's a very unkind remark.

You're right and I'm sorry. I've been banging my head against the wall of trying to understand why sports are held up on some kind of pedestal for the better part of 2 decades now. As I've never gotten any response beyond "sports are good, because they're sports" I've gotten somewhat aggressive on the matter.

As for why I initially made that remark, it's because every sport I've ever played has bored the piss out of me since I didn't feel intellectually challenged or engaged. Watching them is even worse to me. I hope you'll accept my apology for the aggressive nature of my first post. I would still genuinely like to know what makes physical sports interesting to somebody who does watch them.

But on a personal level, I just find physical feats far more impressive than anything done in a virtual world.

I think the crux of our disagreement is in that I don't find physical feats at all impressive. I'm much more interested in being mentally busy and in seeing competitors out-plan one another rather than out-move. The fact that competitive gaming is virtual is irrelevant to me. I enjoy it the same way I do chess or snooker. It's the planning and strategy that appeal to me.

Isn't the hypocrisy just delightful? JOCKS DON'T RESPECT US, WE DO SPORTS TOO. Closely followed by JOCKS ARE STUPID AND DON'T NEED TO THINK. Ignore and move on, it might lower your blood pressure (speaking from personal experience, not trying to insult).

Neat-o. And irrelevant. I don't care about whether people are jocks or not. I don't do any sports anymore nor do I claim to. If it makes you feel better, I spent 13 years playing tennis; including 2 years competitively, 3 years on basketball and soccer each and 2 years on Kendo. I also didn't say that people who play sports are stupid as people. I find their activities intellectually uninteresting when both participating and spectating. That's why I stopped. My question is why physical sports are somehow seen as so much better than competitive gaming, because I personally don't feel like I got anything from sports. I don't see the value in it. So what makes it so damn great?

 

[Yopaz]

Isn't the hypocrisy just delightful? JOCKS DON'T RESPECT US, WE DO SPORTS TOO. Closely followed by JOCKS ARE STUPID AND DON'T NEED TO THINK. Ignore and move on, it might lower your blood pressure (speaking from personal experience, not trying to insult).

Neat-o. And irrelevant. I don't care about whether people are jocks or not. I don't do any sports anymore nor do I claim to. If it makes you feel better, I spent 13 years playing tennis; including 2 years competitively, 3 years on basketball and soccer each and 2 years on Kendo. I also didn't say that people who play sports are stupid as people. I find their activities intellectually uninteresting when both participating and spectating. That's why I stopped. My question is why physical sports are somehow seen as so much better than competitive gaming, because I personally don't feel like I got anything from sports. I don't see the value in it. So what makes it so damn great?

Question. When did I ever say sports are better than competitive gaming? Hint: I didn't. I have no interest in sports, I merely like to point out hypocrisy when I see it. I don't consider games sports. I don't think it matters. Call it a sport if you really want to, I wont.

 

[Foolery]

You're right and I'm sorry. I've been banging my head against the wall of trying to understand why sports are held up on some kind of pedestal for the better part of 2 decades now. As I've never gotten any response beyond "sports are good, because they're sports" I've gotten somewhat aggressive on the matter.

As for why I initially made that remark, it's because every sport I've ever played has bored the piss out of me since I didn't feel intellectually challenged or engaged. Watching them is even worse to me. I hope you'll accept my apology for the aggressive nature of my first post. I would still genuinely like to know what makes physical sports interesting to somebody who does watch them.

Apology absolutely accepted. It's all good, man. I guess they fascinate me because they quite a few of them are things I don't ever see myself doing or being capable of. Like heli-skiing. Some of it is incredibly dangerous, and I like living. I snowboard, but basic s-curves are the best I'll ever get at it. I don't have the ambition, passion, or skill to do what they do. So, I guess maybe not all that different in that regard as someone who plays videogames professionally.

I think the crux of our disagreement is in that I don't find physical feats at all impressive. I'm much more interested in being mentally busy and in seeing competitors out-plan one another rather than out-move. The fact that competitive gaming is virtual is irrelevant to me. I enjoy it the same way I do chess or snooker. It's the planning and strategy that appeal to me.

I like chess. Ever watch curling? It has strategy, and a basic understanding of physics like friction, gravity, etc is extremely helpful. The mental game aids the physical one.

 

[Ziekes]

To play most esports your hands have super high dexterity. (especially sc) see super alien spider hands of Losira. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4UTDudShDY Its really impressive.

 

[Comocat]

I think it's cool that video games are at a point where they can being meaningfully competitive. I don't they will ever reach NFL/NBA prominence, but there are tons of minor professional leagues where people make a living off a hobby. You can boil everything down to absurdity, basketball is about being really tall and throwing a ball in a hoop, but the artistry of being a pro vs a novice is inspiring. I don't really like Football/Soccer that much, but the world cup is amazing because you get to see the best of the best at their best. It's awesome and I couldn't even name a pro soccer player to save my life.

 

[smithy_2045]

As for why I initially made that remark, it's because every sport I've ever played has bored the piss out of me since I didn't feel intellectually challenged or engaged. Watching them is even worse to me. I hope you'll accept my apology for the aggressive nature of my first post. I would still genuinely like to know what makes physical sports interesting to somebody who does watch them.

What sports are you watching if you're not finding any intellectually engaging aspects?

 

[SwimmingRock]

As for why I initially made that remark, it's because every sport I've ever played has bored the piss out of me since I didn't feel intellectually challenged or engaged. Watching them is even worse to me. I hope you'll accept my apology for the aggressive nature of my first post. I would still genuinely like to know what makes physical sports interesting to somebody who does watch them.

What sports are you watching if you're not finding any intellectually engaging aspects?

The sports I've tried watching in the past are:
Soccer
American football
Baseball
Darts
Bowling
Tennis
Boxing
Volleyball
Basketball
Figure skating
Cycling (Tour de France, specifically. My family's crazy about it)

That's all I can recall having watched over the years. Might be more slipping my mind.

 

[Scrubiii]

Nascar is North Carolina's official state sport. If driving a car is a sport, then I don't see why playing a game can't be.

As to the argument that it's not a job, this isn't even a discussion. If you're paid to do something and make a living from it then it's a job. Whether or not you think it should be is irrelevant.

 

[smithy_2045]

As for why I initially made that remark, it's because every sport I've ever played has bored the piss out of me since I didn't feel intellectually challenged or engaged. Watching them is even worse to me. I hope you'll accept my apology for the aggressive nature of my first post. I would still genuinely like to know what makes physical sports interesting to somebody who does watch them.

What sports are you watching if you're not finding any intellectually engaging aspects?

The sports I've tried watching in the past are:
Soccer
American football
Baseball
Darts
Bowling
Tennis
Boxing
Volleyball
Basketball
Figure skating
Cycling (Tour de France, specifically. My family's crazy about it)

That's all I can recall having watched over the years. Might be more slipping my mind.

Of those, the only one I watch regularly is soccer, and I find it to be intellectually stimulating. Soccer has a fluid, constantly evolving tactical puzzle on how to best get the ball into the goal or back into your team's possession. When to make a run, when to go at a player, when to guard space, when to shoot, etc. Then there's the overall strategic aspect of what formation to use, which players to select, which players to substitute, whether to focus on specific players and the general theme for how to play with and without the ball.


Professional road cycling is very strategic, as is American Football. Intellectual engagement should be possible with an understanding of the sports, but I'm not knowledgable enough about either to say with certainty.

I find individual sports to be dull in general, but I'm aware that some tactics are required for sports like tennis.

The other sports you mentioned I don't care at all about, so I don't feel qualified to comment on any potential strategic depth to them.


But basically, there's often a lot of intellectually engaging aspects to sports if you look for them. You do need an understanding of the sport to actually appreciate it most of the time though, maybe that's why you're getting nothing?

 

[smithy_2045]

Nascar is North Carolina's official state sport. If driving a car is a sport, then I don't see why playing a game can't be.

As to the argument that it's not a job, this isn't even a discussion. If you're paid to do something and make a living from it then it's a job. Whether or not you think it should be is irrelevant.

As much as I think NASCAR is stupid (hey lets drive around an oval 500 times) it's extremely physically demanding, way more than any video game.

 

[IndomitableSam]

If you make money doing something you like, all I do is envy you. I agree with the OP's definitions - it is a sport, just not athletics. But if you can get someone to sponsor you or make money any other way in gaming... I really, really envy you. .. as I sit at my desk at work and read the forums, then my big boss walks in and wants to see statistics that haven't been done since before I started... that I was never taught to do or knew existed so I'm safe, but need to go do some work now...

To play most esports your hands have super high dexterity. (especially sc) see super alien spider hands of Losira. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4UTDudShDY Its really impressive.

That is... insane. my poor arthritic hands are crying just seeing that.

 

[SwimmingRock]

The sports I've tried watching in the past are:
Soccer
American football
Baseball
Darts
Bowling
Tennis
Boxing
Volleyball
Basketball
Figure skating
Cycling (Tour de France, specifically. My family's crazy about it)

That's all I can recall having watched over the years. Might be more slipping my mind.

Of those, the only one I watch regularly is soccer, and I find it to be intellectually stimulating. Soccer has a fluid, constantly evolving tactical puzzle on how to best get the ball into the goal or back into your team's possession. When to make a run, when to go at a player, when to guard space, when to shoot, etc. Then there's the overall strategic aspect of what formation to use, which players to select, which players to substitute, whether to focus on specific players and the general theme for how to play with and without the ball.

Professional road cycling is very strategic, as is American Football. Intellectual engagement should be possible with an understanding of the sports, but I'm not knowledgable enough about either to say with certainty.

Something has just dawned on me. Part of my problem with watching sports may also be down to presentation. I'm aware of those aspects of soccer existing, but I never feel like they're relevant when I've tried watching soccer. It just looks like a bunch of muppets running after a ball. Part of the reason snooker managed to grab my interest was the commentators and the green screens used to draw angles/projected paths onto an eagle eye view, which allowed clear explanations and analyses of player strategy. Maybe knowing those in advance would help.

Cycling and american football in particular have this problem for me. I see a bunch of dudes going forward or a ball being thrown. I don't see the pattern, plays or strategy. Problem is, I don't feel at all inclined to learn about these things since I find them dreadfully dull to watch. I don't feel the need to pick them up either, for time-related reasons, but I think I'm beginning to understand that these sports can be as fascinating and layered to you as Starcraft 2 or snooker are to me.

As you put it

You do need an understanding of the sport to actually appreciate it most of the time though, maybe that's why you're getting nothing?

I do understand tennis, though, having played about half my life. I suppose some things will simply never be interesting to me no matter what.