Square Enix Frustration

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The_Echo

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8-Bit_Jack said:
Kingdom Hearts 3. This game should have been released on the PS3 years ago, and instead, we're stuck waiting for the PS4 and hoping they get around to it.
If you've been following the franchise, you'd know that releasing Kingdom Hearts III any earlier would result in either a shit plot or a plot nobody would understand. And going from KHII, the gameplay might not have been that great either.

Then there's this recent bullshit with the HD rerelease of FFX/X-2. How badly do you have to be running things when a reissue takes at least six more months to churn out?! It was announced for YESTERDAY, and quietly pushed back to an unknown time, the best guess so far is an exec who thinks "maybe february 2014". That's just appalling.
HD remasters aren't as easy as you think, and sometimes it involves even more work than normal.

For example, much of the dev time for Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX was rebuilding the first game from scraps of its original code, most of which was completely lost.

Kingdom Hearts keeps getting more and more stupid, to the point where I'm not sure I AM looking forward to the third game ever being released.
I mean, that's just an opinion. I think it's only been getting better, personally.
FFVII is cheapened with every crappy tie-in released.
When did Crisis Core (a great game) come out? Like, 2007? They haven't really touched Final Fantasy VII since then.

When you say "cheapen," I'd say "expanded."
Both KH and FFVII have fallen into this horrendous pit of direction where, to sell whatever new crap they put out, they directly attack the original material that made us WANT to see more in the first place. "oh, sora's just some lucky douche who has no right to be caught up in this adventure, if the REAL keyblade wielders were here, this whole mess would have been fixed easily, because they're SOOOOOOOOO much cooler, you guys".
... What?

Are you playing the same franchise I am? 'Cause... that's not even close to the real thing.
"Oh yeah, Vincent could have single-handedly stopped Sephiroth's little hissy fit, but he was busy being sad. And Sephiroth is just an imitation of this other, BETTER Sephiroth, and there were a couple other Sephiroths too, who are also way cooler. And Zach was basically a god and WAY better than Cloud because Cloud has to like, overcome stuff, and thats totally gay".
I don't remember exactly what went on in Advent Children, but the antagonist there was, like... the same Sephiroth from the original game. Somehow. I don't remember.

The other parts I'm going to have to [citation needed] because holy shit dude I didn't get those vibes at all from either of those games.
 

Arina Love

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i care because i liked FFXIII as well as XIII-2 and now i'm having a blast with FFXIV ARR. To me SE delivered nothing but quality entertainment. Cannot wait for Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII!
 

lapan

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Jazoni89 said:
Well, despite all that, at least Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, is a fantastic MMO.

I'm getting to be a true addict to that game now. Sqeenix did a great job with that game, after the original version wasn't well received at all.

It had a few teething problems, but they are fixed now.

Also, i am certain that KH3 would be worth the wait, especially since Disney acquired a few new IP's.
FF14 feels like a much better version of Guild Wars 2.
 

00slash00

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Arina Love said:
i care because i liked FFXIII as well as XIII-2 and now i'm having a blast with FFXIV ARR. To me SE delivered nothing but quality entertainment. Cannot wait for Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII!
Hooray, I've found one of the like 5 people in the world who also liked 13! I have my copy of Lightning Returns preordered
 

Ratties

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Jazoni89 said:
Thr33X said:
Bad games + bad business = Bye Bye.

And sadly Square doesn't have the financial cushion of an EA to continue to do both without the possibilities of going belly up before the next generation ends. Tragically, like I said...they have GOOD games with which to work with however. Personally they need to throw Final Fantasy in the fridge for a while and start cooking something else.
Square have been absolute saints compared to Capcom.

Now that's a company that needs, and deserves to die, and sell off all of it's IP's to the highest bidder.

Only then we can see a new Onimusha, and Megaman, including a proper Breath of Fire 6, that's not a casual shitty I-Pad game.

At least Square hasn't betrayed it's fanbase...yet (not matter how much some people hated FF13, including me), and they still keep pumping out great published games, and new Kingdom Hearts titles on handhelds. Square is definitely not a company to sit on IP's as much as Capcom does.
This bullshit about how they have betrayed the fanbase. They turned their backs on us. What the fuck are you talking about. Because they cancelled games you wanted to play. They are milking the DLC thing, like alot of other companies. Holy shit, well burn them at the stake. They provided me with countless hours of entertainment back in the day. They are still making games I want to play. They are not as good as they once were, They betrayed nobody. There are a ton of companies out there that do what they want, not what the fans want.
 

kaioshade

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Square Enix may have made some missteps, but i still think they are a highly competent developer (even if they take entirely too long on some projects) and publisher.

I enjoyed Final Fantasy XIII/XIII-2 and am also looking forward to Lightning Returns. Final Fantasy X|V ARR is brilliant compared to 1.0 and looks like it can be a solid MMO for years to come. Acquiring Eidos properties has done them extremely well, and despite their moronic statements of how Tomb Raider and Hitman were failures, both games were very good, and sold very well.

My main beef with them right now is how out of touch they seem to be with their fans at times. They outright refuse to localize what could have possibly been their two strongest titles to date, Final Fantasy Type-0 and Bravely Default. Fortunately, Nintendo has picked up the slack with regards to Bravely Default. Type-0 will most likely never see a release out of Japan at this rate.

For all the bad decisions Square Enix have made, They made Theatrhythm: Final Fantasy. For me, this almost makes up for all the bad. And if Curtain Call lets localized, i will say they are back on the right track.
 

userwhoquitthesite

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Zetatrain said:
Whether or not you enjoyed all the tie in stuff for FFVII I don't understand how they corrupt or ruin the original work. Is it too hard just to pretend that they never happened/existed despite them being officially recognized as part of canon?

Final Fantasy VII was a good game with a good story and IMO opinion is a complete work without all those tie-in and sequel games and movies.

This is like all those Star Wars fans who say that the prequel trilogy ruined the original trilogy.
Oh no, I agree with you, it IS a complete work by itself. The reason I have such a problem with ITS expansions (as opposed to star wars) is that the star wars prequels don't undermine the originals, they just don't mesh very well artistically.

the FFVII additions on the other hand....
For instance, in FFVII, Sephiroth's breakdown and subsequent Kefka-style world-murdering are a result of his growing up alone, unique among humanity, with a very tenuous grasp on who he is. He does not relate to others well, and when he learns that Jenova (whom he is told gave birth to him) is a dead alien monster, he loses that last grip on his identity and snaps, going rogue and murdering the whole town. But according to Crisis Core, there were two other Sephiroths (and indeed, our Sephiroth isn't even the first) that were fundamentally identical to him, meaning his "i am alone in the universe" feelings are complete bullshit. Not to mention, Sephiroth's rebellion was supposed to be a complete shock and unthinkable. But now, he's copying the two OTHER sephiroths, who both rebelled before he did. I GET the "fallen angel" motif they were going for, but it doesnt WORK. It destroys Sephiroth's motivation in the first game.


00slash00 said:
Arina Love said:
i care because i liked FFXIII as well as XIII-2 and now i'm having a blast with FFXIV ARR. To me SE delivered nothing but quality entertainment. Cannot wait for Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII!
Hooray, I've found one of the like 5 people in the world who also liked 13! I have my copy of Lightning Returns preordered
In PM, can you explain why you like it? I would love to discuss it with you
 

Raddra

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Square was an amazing company that made amazing games.. so was Enix. However you know the old saying about mixing two good things. Steak is amazing, icecream is amazing.. but you don't want to mix steak and icecream.

S-E has been riding on the back of the old love and loyalty of the old square fanbase for a long time, and the old talent that made those old games so great has fled due to executive interference. Said execs really hate how much people loved the old games and hate the ones they have made, and instead of taking a step back and looking at the problems with what they are making and their meddling they just dismiss the issues, read all the brownnose mindless fanboyisms the small but vocal fanboys type and convince themselves they're all right.. but they really aren't. FF14's initial release proved that and made them realize that listening to the fanboys was a very dumb idea. They actually did something about it then and put in some actual effort, and i'm hoping it is a promising sign for the future.

Still though, the old loyal fanbase that they've been riding on for sales and hype are getting very sick of the entire point missing ordeal. Gameplay, story, characters, writing.. they've all been so poor. And rather than looking back at what made their older titles so great, they notice instead the wrong things.. they look at FF 6-7-8-9 and even 10 and instead of listing 'interesting characters, good story, adventurous feel, interesting explorable environments/world' they write 'esoteric weather based names, crazy environments, insane gadget weaponry, emo character'. Its all so incredibly frustrating.
 

Quiotu

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I've been playing FF games since 4(2), and I've watched Squeenix bounce around and do a lot of strange things during my lifetime. I will say that I do not like their graphics-centric priorities that started from FF7 on. FF7 I think sent them down a path that they didn't correct until FFX. Barring the pretty horrible voice directing, X finally had a story I could get behind... and most I think admit they play JRPGs for the character-driven stories. That's why XII worked rather well too, even though the two kids were mostly there to narrate the story rather than get that personally involved.

XIII was one of those rare times for Squeenix where I couldn't play their game because of the gameplay. Having Lightning be the MC as basically Cloud 2.0 didn't really help out for me, but that combat system really did it for me. XII's Gambit system was similar but had almost infinite ways for you to set up the character, and XIII's system in contrast was VERY limited. Then you had the autobattle options and auto-healing after every battle... I mean the system works, but it's like Baby's First Final Fantasy. Suddenly instead of me managing the pace and keeping the combat interesting, the whole system is on cruise control... it took the one thing I heard a good amount of people not liking about XII and going FARTHER with it.

As for the next two games... they didn't exactly have a choice in the matter. Final Fantasy vs13/15 quickly became their Duke Nukem Forever, so they had to keep making games centered around one of the more loathed protagonists in FF history. I guess it was a combination of too convoluted of a story, a battle system too simplified that somehow takes 2/3 of the game to explain, and a rather wooden and laconic protagonist. I suppose once a game disappoints you, giving the sequels a chance is rather tough. It's even tougher when you see they added QTEs to boss battles and Namco-esque DLC... that is a bad addition to any JRPG in my eyes.

I still might give FFXIII-2 a chance sometime, as I hear Lightning is only tangentially involved and not a regular character. Currently I trust Atlus more than I do Squeenix as a developer, and games like Ni no Kuni and Tales of Xillia will occupy my time before I find an opening to try a Final Fantasy game again.
 

HardkorSB

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8-Bit_Jack said:
I'll be up front, this is mostly me ranting.

But can someone remind me why we still care about Square?
What have they done recently that was so great?
Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider.
 

Zetatrain

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8-Bit_Jack said:
Zetatrain said:
Whether or not you enjoyed all the tie in stuff for FFVII I don't understand how they corrupt or ruin the original work. Is it too hard just to pretend that they never happened/existed despite them being officially recognized as part of canon?

Final Fantasy VII was a good game with a good story and IMO opinion is a complete work without all those tie-in and sequel games and movies.

This is like all those Star Wars fans who say that the prequel trilogy ruined the original trilogy.
Oh no, I agree with you, it IS a complete work by itself. The reason I have such a problem with ITS expansions (as opposed to star wars) is that the star wars prequels don't undermine the originals, they just don't mesh very well artistically.
Tell that to some of the fans I've spoken to. The whole medicloarian explanation ruined the whole concept of the force for some people and others can't look at Darth Vader the same way because know they don't see a tragic and meanacing figure they see a whiny ***** who threw a hissy fit. The prequels also bit a little bit of retconing as well if I remember correctly. Yet whenever I watch the originals I see them solely for what they are without the events of the prequels bothering me.
8-Bit_Jack said:
the FFVII additions on the other hand....
For instance, in FFVII, Sephiroth's breakdown and subsequent Kefka-style world-murdering are a result of his growing up alone, unique among humanity, with a very tenuous grasp on who he is. He does not relate to others well, and when he learns that Jenova (whom he is told gave birth to him) is a dead alien monster, he loses that last grip on his identity and snaps, going rogue and murdering the whole town. But according to Crisis Core, there were two other Sephiroths (and indeed, our Sephiroth isn't even the first) that were fundamentally identical to him, meaning his "i am alone in the universe" feelings are complete bullshit. Not to mention, Sephiroth's rebellion was supposed to be a complete shock and unthinkable. But now, he's copying the two OTHER sephiroths, who both rebelled before he did. I GET the "fallen angel" motif they were going for, but it doesnt WORK. It destroys Sephiroth's motivation in the first game.
Ok, I can see why this wouldn't gel well with you, but if you ever go back and play the original Final Fantasy VII would it be too hard to judge Sephiroth by and only by what that game shows/tells you regardless of what some tie-in game that was made several years later says otherwise?
 

userwhoquitthesite

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Ponyholder said:
First off, grow up. Please don't use "gay" as an insult. It makes you look like a child throwing a tantrum. Now, how is Sora some lucky douche? They explain it clearly why the keyblade chose him when it originally belonged to Riku. Riku's heart was captured by Ansem, so it moved onto Sora who promised to protect his friends. The story only gets more fleshed out and the only time I can say that it got needlessly complex was the ending to Dream Drop Distance.

I have not really cared much for Final Fantasy VII nor played its spinoffs so I can't speak on those.
First off, learn how satirism works. It makes you look ignorant of literature and debate tactics.
See, there's an example already: I've mimicked your initial sentence to make a point of you not comprehending the argument made. Just to make sure you understand, I'll explain: I did not use gay as an insult. My parodic, hypothetical Square folk did. I'm using the statement to both point out my frustration with their choices and accuse them of being, or at least pandering to, the immature ignorant children who think that way. And thank you for not attempting to argue the point about FFVII, it is perhaps your most well-reasoned move in your entire post.

Sora is "some lucky douche" (again, in the terms used by my hypothetical figure, not myself) because while Kingdom Hearts says "oh, yes, Riku was supposed to get it, but Sora proved himself more worthy" the later games tell us that Keyblade wielders are only able to because of an innate ability to do so. Yes, they must have the will, but there's also a mandate of heaven involved. It then tells us that Sora does not have that ability, and only was able to use the weapon because he absorbed proto-roxas and leeched HIS ability.
EVERY game has introduced some new baffling lore that causes trouble with previous information, but while the rest is just stupid, this is offensive. Kingdom Hearts is Sora triumphing in the face of adversity, against all odds. But now, we know that everything he did is because ventus happened to fall through time and hung out in Sora's body.


I DO know what I'm talking about.
Maybe you should learn as well
 

MCerberus

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Isn't it odd that the only reason the western audience has any remote interest in buying from them is the division Squeenix blames for their losses? How they publish good games but overblow every part of the budget (hair physics! That was needed!) until it's impossible to make money?

But no, Squeenix, keep putting SecuROM on stuff, making terrible mobile games, and have FF bomb time after time until it fixes itself... somehow.
 

BooTsPs3

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If you plan on shitting on a company, or a game, or anything for that matter, use OBJECTIVE points. E.G. "THIS SUCKS!" is opinion at best. "X game feature ruins flow because Y", or "X plothole makes no sense".

You claim FF13 made no sense, but it did. The only problem with it in regards to following the rules it sets out is when everyone becomes L'cie, but then turns back for no good reason. BUT, you claim Square is diminishing in quality, while stupid crap was in their stories since the beginning. Remember the good old "it was actually aliens on the moon the whole time, here, take this spaceship" moment in ff4?

KH is just bitched about people because it's spread over multiple systems, so it's hard to play all the games, but the story is pretty well written, and the gameplay is fun for the most part. Yeah, 358/2 days is repetitive. But abysmal? Whaddafuck you talking about? Go play an actually bad game, because this ain't one. Repetitive is all, and that turned some off.

If you think FF7 got ruined by other games you're flat out wrong. Firstly, ff7 is the same game. If other things existence alone bothers you, then you have some problems beside game quality. Secondly, Crisis core is pretty damn good (though i understand some didn't enjoy the combat) and true to FF7. In fact the only thing that's retconned if i'm correct is that zack gets killed by more than 3 soldiers this time. But really, how anticlimactic would it be if that was the end of the game? And "cloud had to overcome stuff"? Did you even play crisis core? There's quite a few emotional barriers for zack along the way. Can't comment on dirge as i've yet to find a copy of it, though gameplay looks meh from what i've seen.

13-2s sequel was made with fan feedback in mind and fixed pretty much every problem with 13 gameplay wise. Better combat, better leveling, less linearity, more side missions. The fact that they kind of retconned the end of 13 is kinda iffy, but i'd say this game is a good example of how to do a sequel. Keep the good parts of the original (art direction, interesting combat in theory etc) and improve or remove what was bad or didn't work in tandem with the rest of the game. It also had a pretty good story IMO, with my favourite villain so far.

13-3. Well, not much to say. Not out yet. But i will say, just because there was a ton of bitchy people regarding the other games doesn't mean there is no demand, and like i said above, SE showed how they can do a sequel to a main game, after the mess (albeit a mess with fun combat) that was X-2. Go to a soundtrack video on youtube for 13 or 13-2 and see what i mean from the comments. The game has it's fans, they just aren't loud.

And XIV? (I assume when you said IV you meant it because it sounded MMOey how you spoke about it). They made a game. It was bad. Fans didn't like it. What would another company do? Go F2P and see how much money they can squeeze from this shitty project. What did SE do? They remade the game from the ground up in order to make their fans happy, and from what i can see (Haven't played the game yet, but have watched some streams and reviews) fans fucking love the new version, as do reviewers. That is just flat out something good to do. They even apologised countless times, and one of the devs i recall being quoted as wanting to bring honour back to the FF game with the relaunch. That is not something to hate a company over. Not in todays world where being a loyal customer and buying new rewards you with buggy unpatched games complete with a long ass code for disc locked content.

You say you don't want to hate this company, but what your saying can be charitably described as opinion, and uncharitably described as moronic drivel. It's just "this sucks, that sucks". No reason behind it. Now, SE isn't the greatest company ever, but what they are is one of the very few AAA devs who has shown that they still care about quality more than money, and has made countless games i've enjoyed, even if they made some games i didn't. And that much should be respected.
 

userwhoquitthesite

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Zetatrain said:
Ok, I can see why this wouldn't gel well with you, but if you ever go back and play the original Final Fantasy VII would it be too hard to judge Sephiroth by and only by what that game shows/tells you regardless of what some tie-in game that was made several years later says otherwise?
For me? no. But for all the people that DIDN'T play that game first, Sephiroth is just a moron whining about nothing.

That's why I have such an issue with it. Yeah, midichlorians were stupid, but they don't change Vader's menace. And honestly, they kinda work for what Georgie boy wanted to portray: a gifted youth who, through arrogance caused by his gifts, makes the wrong choices and is ultimately punished. The prequels weren't well EXECUTED, but the idea is solid. Vader is what happens when the tragic figure crosses his despair event horizon and lashes out at the world he perceives as having wronged him.
I actually would hold up episode three with the original trilogy were it not for the last few scenes. Vader's NOOOOOOOOOOO does make him look pathetic, and the "i need to pop out these kids and die tragically!" pacing of Padme's death undermine the rest of the film.
Actually, if you redo those scenes, you can save the film: have ANAKIN, burned and mutilated do the big no, and then fall silent, broken, and then remade as the dark and imposing Darth Vader who stands tall and strong. Actually have Padme die from Anakin's assault, and obiwan has to save the children, who then symbolize the one grace of the tragic romance, and the hope that, while it can never be undone, the recent events can at least be stopped from destroying the future.

The prequels to FFVII on the other hand completely eliminate the villain's reasons for going crazy and leave him as a "oh, i have monster blood? TIME TO KILL EVERYONE!"
 

RJ 17

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If you ask me, Square's been going downhill for a very, VERY long time now. It all started with FF7. It was a good game, don't get me wrong, but that's where the troubles began. Really I think that Spoony from The Spoony Experiment describes things best in his review of FF8. That's the game where I think things started to become NOTICEABLY wrong with the franchise. FF9 - get ready for some sacrilege - was just bland and boring. Seriously, I couldn't be bothered to play beyond the first disc. 10 introduced us to atrocious voice-acting and a ridiculous story, and 10-2 was so bad I returned it 3 hours after renting it. Annnnnd that's where I called it quits with the franchise and the company.

Everything I've heard from then on with regards to FF implies that I really haven't been missing much outside of a decent MMO. But I already did my time in MMO Purgatory by putting a few years into WoW, so I had no desire to get sucked into another one. I will say I did like the KH franchise, I played the first game and truly enjoyed it. Then I get to KH2 and find myself asking "Ummmm....what the fuck's going on here?" Oh, turns out there were some handheld console games that you were supposed to play in between KH1 and KH2. Great, there goes my chance at keeping up with the story. So I got online and read a plot synopsis of what I missed and found it to be rather strange, but I went with it. Played through KH2 and thought the ending was just silly.

After that I gave up on that series as well...the sing-along Little Mermaid stuff certainly didn't help to win me over either. >.>

So yeah, like I said, in my book SE has been in decline for over a decade now. I'm not saying that I can't get into an RPG that's defined by being in a "High Fantasy" genre, but really that's how I preferred my FF games. I liked the settings and stories from the classics (1 through 6). IMO SE focuses too much on the appearance of its games now rather than the story, where as "back in the day" it had to have strong stories to compensate for the fact that it couldn't yet have dazzling graphics.
 

Zetatrain

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8-Bit_Jack said:
Zetatrain said:
Ok, I can see why this wouldn't gel well with you, but if you ever go back and play the original Final Fantasy VII would it be too hard to judge Sephiroth by and only by what that game shows/tells you regardless of what some tie-in game that was made several years later says otherwise?
For me? no. But for all the people that DIDN'T play that game first, Sephiroth is just a moron whining about nothing.
Ah, now i see where you're coming from. Yeah having Crisis Core be your first exposure to Sephiroth probably wouldn't leave you with a good first impression.
8-Bit_Jack said:
That's why I have such an issue with it. Yeah, midichlorians were stupid, but they don't change Vader's menace. And honestly, they kinda work for what Georgie boy wanted to portray: a gifted youth who, through arrogance caused by his gifts, makes the wrong choices and is ultimately punished. The prequels weren't well EXECUTED, but the idea is solid. Vader is what happens when the tragic figure crosses his despair event horizon and lashes out at the world he perceives as having wronged him.
I actually would hold up episode three with the original trilogy were it not for the last few scenes. Vader's NOOOOOOOOOOO does make him look pathetic, and the "i need to pop out these kids and die tragically!" pacing of Padme's death undermine the rest of the film.
Actually, if you redo those scenes, you can save the film: have ANAKIN, burned and mutilated do the big no, and then fall silent, broken, and then remade as the dark and imposing Darth Vader who stands tall and strong. Actually have Padme die from Anakin's assault, and obiwan has to save the children, who then symbolize the one grace of the tragic romance, and the hope that, while it can never be undone, the recent events can at least be stopped from destroying the future.

The prequels to FFVII on the other hand completely eliminate the villain's reasons for going crazy and leave him as a "oh, i have monster blood? TIME TO KILL EVERYONE!"
Eh, whether its a good idea horribly executed or a horrible idea executed well, the end result can still be the same; it leaves a bad taste in peoples's mouths that makes it hard for them to enjoy related material.