Square Enix Frustration

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Lunar Templar

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To answer your question.

I don't care anymore.

The main number FF games have been shit since 12, arguably 10, but I think Tidus gets to much flack in all honesty.

They don't bother with they other great franchises they have anymore (Mana) or fuck them up royally if they do (Parasite Eve), all while constantly degrading the one franchise it hasn't abandoned for 'reasons'. Not to mention the whoring of a few single games of the franchise (FF1,4, and 7) while almost totally ignoring other entry's (any FF games not numbered 1,4, or 7), though irritating as it is I'll probably never see a 'FF4DS' like remake make for FF6, the way they been going lately, probably for the best, I kinda don't trust them to not fuck up their own classics anymore.
 

Jazoni89

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Ratties said:
Jazoni89 said:
Thr33X said:
Bad games + bad business = Bye Bye.

And sadly Square doesn't have the financial cushion of an EA to continue to do both without the possibilities of going belly up before the next generation ends. Tragically, like I said...they have GOOD games with which to work with however. Personally they need to throw Final Fantasy in the fridge for a while and start cooking something else.
Square have been absolute saints compared to Capcom.

Now that's a company that needs, and deserves to die, and sell off all of it's IP's to the highest bidder.

Only then we can see a new Onimusha, and Megaman, including a proper Breath of Fire 6, that's not a casual shitty I-Pad game.

At least Square hasn't betrayed it's fanbase...yet (not matter how much some people hated FF13, including me), and they still keep pumping out great published games, and new Kingdom Hearts titles on handhelds. Square is definitely not a company to sit on IP's as much as Capcom does.
This bullshit about how they have betrayed the fanbase. They turned their backs on us. What the fuck are you talking about. Because they cancelled games you wanted to play. They are milking the DLC thing, like alot of other companies. Holy shit, well burn them at the stake. They provided me with countless hours of entertainment back in the day. They are still making games I want to play. They are not as good as they once were, They betrayed nobody. There are a ton of companies out there that do what they want, not what the fans want.

Well... the cancellation of two mega man titles, and the Casual I-pad Breath of fire that is coming out nearly ten years since the last one, needless outsourcing of their franchises like they don't care, having disk locked content in their fighting games...I could go on, and on, and on.

Capcom to me at least, is not the same Capcom I fell in love with now, and I am definitely not alone in this opinion. I feel that they have betrayed their fanbase in one way or another, to a point even most Capcom fans can't even disagree. Companies I do agree are always after themselves, and what betters them (and Videogame companies are no different), but when the people start losing trust in their products, then it causes lost sales of a franchise, or a certain game.

Anyway, talking about Capcom, what notable games have they made recently? I seriously want to know. Ducktails, some people liked, but was met with average reviews, and Monster Hunter 3 on the Wii-U is near enough the same game i bought years ago on the Wii. Dragons Dogma is okay though, but they came out a while ago.

The only thing to expect from Capcom now, is the odd original game that comes out every few years, and Street Fighter rehashes with a few new characters, and a few new stages.

It's sad, because they are sitting on so many great franchises that could "potentially" save Capcom from the financial hole that they have dug themselves. Considering they now only have a little over a hundred million in the bank, and for a huge company like Capcom that is potentially disastrous.
 

Zukabazuka

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Final Fantasy 14 wasn't that unique. Class system is something new or hasn't been used in MMO, but haven't played that many different ones. For me it plays very similar to TERA online. Almost all new MMO follow the same pattern when it comes to skills.

1. single type skill, do medium damage
2. Another single type skill, do either same or a little bit more.
3. Support skill
4 Splash skill do far less than first and second skill. Might do even less if used on more monsters.


But all these skills doesn't do enough damage to kill in one shot for any monster at your current level or even if they are way lower level than you. Same in TERA online, the monster will gain a bit more HP each level they go up but your damage will always be lower than that. So you are just going to push 1,1,1,3,2,2,2,2,3,1,1,1 and fight is over. Repeat 1000 times on every single monster in the game. You don't need to move around since their skill pretty much hit you even if you left the field.

So after getting about 20 levels in one class you think going to another one might be easier. Nope, redo all that shit once again but a little bit different depending on what class you picked. Oh you saved one quest to get some easy exp? Nope not gonna work. I believe any kind of level based gear and monsters that are based on similar levels really need to go.

The old school MMOs where so much better, Ragnarok Online did it better. It had a stats system you actually had to know to not mess up bad. It had a skill system where you got to pick set amount of skills and max them. Not all of them. But some of them. It was not afraid of giving you skills doing massive damage, Cards that would reduce some type of damage to zero, where using an elemental attack against certain monster would actually do far more damage than using a spell that they would be strong against. Remake this system and you most likely be successful in the MMO. You do not last long coping WoW

So what do we have now? No skill points, no stats points(ok it got some but not sure if it does anything and you only get it every third level), straight path to last level, and gear that you change every 5th level.

Does that sounds like progression?
 

GalanDun

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.....
Because up until recently Square-Enix always made good games that everyone loved. Hell, the last game of their I played I absolutely loved! (The World Ends With You) I haven't played an S-E game besides Final Fantasy XIII-2 that I haven't at least been intrigued by, if not completely infatuated with. Final Fantasy XIII-4/XV is one of their new games I'm actually looking forward to.
I guess that people still care about Square for the same reason we still care about EA, because they USED to be great.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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8-Bit_Jack said:
I'll be up front, this is mostly me ranting.

But can someone remind me why we still care about Square?
What have they done recently that was so great? I know they MUST have, but all that's popping up are the huge disappoinments.
? Sleeping Dogs (2+ Million copies 80-83 metacritic), Hitman Absolution (3.4 million copies, 79-83 Metacritic), Tomb Raider (4+ million units sold, 86-87 metacritic)(all without including digital sales and with equally positive user scores). Tremendous successes albeit commercial failures because of their insane budget that completely overshot potential revenue. But their own budgeting failures don't impact our enjoyment of the games. Going back further (2012-2011) there's Deus Ex, Quantum Conundrum (surprise, they published it) a number of Kingdom Hearts titles and a standalone Hitman title that was well recieved in addition to a few popular Final Fantasy titles (XIV is darn close to 90 metacritic despite the sorry launch). They've also been remastering and re-releasing a bunch of age-old titles like FFTactics and Tactics Ogre that I've personally whittled away weeks of my life on.

So I'd say they've been extremely active as a single publisher recently. Their biggest flaw with the FF series has been consistently trying to muscle into the MMORPG market when those who can afford that kind of time for one game are already giving money to WoW. Beyond that they've just been terrible at budgeting in such a way as to turn a profit on immensely popular games.
 

Charli

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Lilani said:
Jazoni89 said:
Well, despite all that, at least Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, is a fantastic MMO.

I'm getting to be a true addict to that game now. Sqeenix did a great job with that game, after the original version wasn't well received at all.

It had a few teething problems, but they are fixed now.

Also, i am certain that KH3 would be worth the wait, especially since Disney acquired a few new IP's.
I agree wholeheartedly on FFXIV. If an epic-but-still-knows-how-to-have-fun story is what you like in your Final Fantasy, FFXIV delivers. While the story is revealed in MMO fashion rather than standard JRPG (mini-quests, dungeons, instanced battles, etc) there are still lots of stories to be told, and lots of great characters to have fun with.
Guuuuuys stop it, I'm still not able to play. :(

But I agree I have an extremely fierce love-hate relationship with Square Enix, I think though they're starting to become fully aware of what shit choices they've made and trying to get back on track, that doesn't stop me being annoyed with the last 5-6 years.
 

KarmaTheAlligator

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Because they still make games that are fun for me. I'm not even going to go into the whole 'good or bad' side of the conversation since that's completely subjective, but I found myself enjoying most of the games you listed.

I'm really looking forward to Kingdom Hearts 3, but then again, I'm one of those who actually like the writing and enjoy the gameplay.

I like FFXIII. I really liked that I didn't have to run all over the place doing fetch quests for most of the game, or even interact with NPCs. It gave the game a sense of urgency, and I was really annoyed when they dropped that in Chapter 11. And how was the levelling system counter intuitive? You got Crystarium Points, which you then spent to increase your abilities. There's no way to go wrong as the path is completely linear, the only choice is in which role you want to level up (and even then you generally don't have much choice as they only get unlocked at certain points). How did you manage to find that counter intuitive?
 

JayRPG

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Ok, so many things to say and so little time before I have to leave for work.

While you (and the majority of the west, excluding me) may not like FFXIII and it's universe, you're forgetting that Japan actually really does like it, Lightning is the most popular FF lead character ever according to polls in Japan.

I for one find the story and universe interesting, while the combat was lacking, The full linear gameplay wasn't all that bad either, though it could have been done better (see tales of xillia).

FFX and X-2 being pushed back is really disappointing, I can't say anything in their defence, they fucked this up, but I do hope that it is for the best of the game and it will show in quality when it's released.

Now for this part: "oh, sora's just some lucky douche who has no right to be caught up in this adventure, if the REAL keyblade wielders were here, this whole mess would have been fixed easily, because they're SOOOOOOOOO much cooler, you guys". "Oh yeah, Vincent could have single-handedly stopped Sephiroth's little hissy fit, but he was busy being sad. And Sephiroth is just an imitation of this other, BETTER Sephiroth, and there were a couple other Sephiroths too, who are also way cooler. And Zach was basically a god and WAY better than Cloud because Cloud has to like, overcome stuff, and thats totally gay".

The real keyblade wielders are SOOOOO much cooler, I hate Sora.
Just about everybody I know, including myself, wanted a Vincent game or book or movie, I liked dirge of cerberus (not for gameplay, but for the story) and it was cool and it didn't ruin FF7 in any way.
Sephiroth is the most popular character from FF7 and I think they actually did quite of a good job of bringing him back, I liked the Kadaj, loz and yazoo stuff.
Zach IS way better than Cloud, actually, I find the Crisis core cast 10000x more relatable and lovable compared to the original FF7 cast - Angeal, Genesis, Zach, Sephiroth.

What you have to remember at the end of the day is, Square couldn't give a toss about what we think in the west* about FF and KH, these are JRPGs and Japan happens to like them and some of us over here just happen to like them too.


*Notice I said FF and KH, Square does care about us in relation to their games marketed toward the west (tomb raider, Hitman) but that's not what we're talking about.
 

KazeAizen

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8-Bit_Jack said:
shrekfan246 said:
we're worried that they're going to make themselves wither away into nothing.
You know, maybe that's what they need. Final Fantasy happened because the company was going bankrupt. Course, then you have to say "but what about everyone who works there, they'll fire people long before they went bankrupt".


What galls me is this whole adding to shit. This is a company who's flagship properties are all about having us buy the same game as the last one, with stuff switched around. Why corrupt your beloved titles by shoehorning in all this extra crap, instead of just making a new game?
*points at Call of Duty* They are doing it far worse then Sqaure Enix. At least with Square you can tell each game is its own distinct entity. It actually has characters that don't look quite as cookie cutter as CoDs and hell CoD even knows this now as the entire cast of the next game is gonna be this "ghost" type person. Final Fantasy XIII wasn't as bad as you think and the combat actually is more engaging then say *puts up forcefield* Final Fantasy VI. XIII-2 actually was an amazing game and it didn't nullify the last one with time travel. It did however have a twist ending that I didn't see coming. There was no Deus Ex Machina at the end to save the day.

All the Kingdom Hearts games are actually pretty solid. I don't see what you thought was so "abysmal" about 358/2 Days. Heck if nothing else the story was pretty damn good showing you where Roxas comes from. As for all their development hell projects I don't know what is going on. Consider this though. They back pedaled and fixed XIV, they are finally getting KH 3 and versus XIII or rather XV off the ground so perhaps something is finally moving and shaking in there to get them headed in the right direction.
 

ZZoMBiE13

Ate My Neighbors
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I haven't enjoyed a Final Fantasy since the characters looked like armored marshmallows. So count yourself lucky that you enjoyed them as long as you did. I never cared for any of their 3D PS1 era stuff. Or PS2 era stuff. And certainly not the stuff they've made in the last decade.

I'd still rather load up my NES cart of the original and name my black mage "BOOBS" again than play any of the modern Squeenix offerings.

In other news; Get off my lawn you darn kids!
 

KazeAizen

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BooTsPs3 said:
If you plan on shitting on a company, or a game, or anything for that matter, use OBJECTIVE points. E.G. "THIS SUCKS!" is opinion at best. "X game feature ruins flow because Y", or "X plothole makes no sense".

You claim FF13 made no sense, but it did. The only problem with it in regards to following the rules it sets out is when everyone becomes L'cie, but then turns back for no good reason. BUT, you claim Square is diminishing in quality, while stupid crap was in their stories since the beginning. Remember the good old "it was actually aliens on the moon the whole time, here, take this spaceship" moment in ff4?

KH is just bitched about people because it's spread over multiple systems, so it's hard to play all the games, but the story is pretty well written, and the gameplay is fun for the most part. Yeah, 358/2 days is repetitive. But abysmal? Whaddafuck you talking about? Go play an actually bad game, because this ain't one. Repetitive is all, and that turned some off.

If you think FF7 got ruined by other games you're flat out wrong. Firstly, ff7 is the same game. If other things existence alone bothers you, then you have some problems beside game quality. Secondly, Crisis core is pretty damn good (though i understand some didn't enjoy the combat) and true to FF7. In fact the only thing that's retconned if i'm correct is that zack gets killed by more than 3 soldiers this time. But really, how anticlimactic would it be if that was the end of the game? And "cloud had to overcome stuff"? Did you even play crisis core? There's quite a few emotional barriers for zack along the way. Can't comment on dirge as i've yet to find a copy of it, though gameplay looks meh from what i've seen.

13-2s sequel was made with fan feedback in mind and fixed pretty much every problem with 13 gameplay wise. Better combat, better leveling, less linearity, more side missions. The fact that they kind of retconned the end of 13 is kinda iffy, but i'd say this game is a good example of how to do a sequel. Keep the good parts of the original (art direction, interesting combat in theory etc) and improve or remove what was bad or didn't work in tandem with the rest of the game. It also had a pretty good story IMO, with my favourite villain so far.

13-3. Well, not much to say. Not out yet. But i will say, just because there was a ton of bitchy people regarding the other games doesn't mean there is no demand, and like i said above, SE showed how they can do a sequel to a main game, after the mess (albeit a mess with fun combat) that was X-2. Go to a soundtrack video on youtube for 13 or 13-2 and see what i mean from the comments. The game has it's fans, they just aren't loud.

And XIV? (I assume when you said IV you meant it because it sounded MMOey how you spoke about it). They made a game. It was bad. Fans didn't like it. What would another company do? Go F2P and see how much money they can squeeze from this shitty project. What did SE do? They remade the game from the ground up in order to make their fans happy, and from what i can see (Haven't played the game yet, but have watched some streams and reviews) fans fucking love the new version, as do reviewers. That is just flat out something good to do. They even apologised countless times, and one of the devs i recall being quoted as wanting to bring honour back to the FF game with the relaunch. That is not something to hate a company over. Not in todays world where being a loyal customer and buying new rewards you with buggy unpatched games complete with a long ass code for disc locked content.

You say you don't want to hate this company, but what your saying can be charitably described as opinion, and uncharitably described as moronic drivel. It's just "this sucks, that sucks". No reason behind it. Now, SE isn't the greatest company ever, but what they are is one of the very few AAA devs who has shown that they still care about quality more than money, and has made countless games i've enjoyed, even if they made some games i didn't. And that much should be respected.
This. Just all of this.

Hell XIII and XIII-2 were my first forays into Final Fantasy. Until then it was all Kingdom Hearts for me. XIII-2 is probably one of my favorite rpgs of all time. I loved the story. I love that they actually have several hidden endings as well. Unlocked post final boss but I just find it cool that in the decision parts of the story that they actually wrote out several theoretical new endings to it. It also has one of my favorite endings ever. This may be giving it just a bit too much credit but it almost seemed like what The Empire Strikes back was for Star Wars. I love those kinds of ending if they can pull them off. The only ones I like better are those like Portal 2's. A truly satisfying ending with a definitive "this is it" feel. Nothing needs to be added.

I know Square Enix hasn't made the best management choices lately. I've heard about a bunch of funny business from them. However I do think that they still do care and that the upper management is at least trying to put its image back together.
 

Something Amyss

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Zhukov said:
I don't give a rat's arse about the games they make themselves, but they've been putting out some decent stuff as a publisher.

Tomb Raider, Hitman: Absolution and Deus Ex: Human Revolution were all pretty good in my book and, as far as I'm aware, relatively free of publisher evildoing.
They're also evidently the problem, which may kill any chances for furthering of any of those franchises (Deux Ex took crap for this before it was cool).

Reise said:
I mean, really, we've already lost THQ. How many publishers are left that aren't just around to regurgitate the same crap over and over?
Isn't that why they went under in the first place? They had been regurgitating a bunch of the same stuff and overspeculated on it? It was only a few months before filing for chapter 11 that they had decided to return their focus to "core" titles.

8-Bit_Jack said:
the FFVII additions on the other hand....
Most of the arguments you just made could apply to Star Wars, though. Enough was retconned to undermine a lot of the original trilogy, if you want to go that route.

If we're being honest, I don't. I don't want to go down that route in FF, I don't want to go down that route in SW, I don't want to go down that route in anything.

Still, it's a little weird to see someone say it's fine in one case and not the other. Just enjoy the original, dude. I only own the OT for Star Wars, and that's all I need. I only have FFVII, and that's all I need. It works for both.

Zetatrain said:
Tell that to some of the fans I've spoken to. The whole medicloarian explanation ruined the whole concept of the force for some people and others can't look at Darth Vader the same way because know they don't see a tragic and meanacing figure they see a whiny ***** who threw a hissy fit.
Oh, I'll comment on this one. It's my theory that Luke got an advanced copy of the prequels before the battle with Vader in Empire. When he found out his dad was that whiny *****, he tried to commit suicide. Up until the fateful "I am your father" line, he was in denial.

>.>

I find the NT more mockable than angering, honestly.
 

EstrogenicMuscle

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8-Bit_Jack said:
I'll be up front, this is mostly me ranting.

But can someone remind me why we still care about Square?
I think that a problem is that, for many gamers, old habits die hard. I, too, am frustrated that, by brand alone, Square Enix seems to grab attention above other Japanese RPG creators. Just because people are afraid to try new things.

Even with Enix, it's taken them a while to get noticed because of bad marketing for their games in the 90s. The West was late to Dragon Quest.

But even Star Ocean is better known in the West than Tales, which I feel has aged substantially better than Star Ocean, because of brand recognition. The first two Star Ocean games were great, and Tri-Ace and Namco Tales Studio are both the Telnet Wolf Team legacy. But games like Tales of Destiny and Tales of Eternia were both great games alongside Star Ocean: The Second Story. I've been a bit frustrated by people discovering Tales and saying things like "I like playing Tales because it makes me feel like I'm playing Star Ocean". Why? Because of Enix? I mean, Enix is great, I like them better than Square. But I don't like the idea that so many franchises don't get their deserved recognition.

And even with this generation, it seemed like people anticipated Star Ocean 4 far more than Tales of Vesperia. Why? What merit was there to that? Tales of Vesperia was the much better game and went ignored by so many. It was all unfortunate brand recognition, Tri-Ace's Star Ocean is owned by Enix and thus Square Enix. Thus, many gamers pay attention to Star Ocean and don't even bother discovering Tales, "Tales? What a generic name. I didn't know Namco made anime JRPGs, must be generic." Or even worse, treat the Tales games like the inferior little brother to Star Ocean. When Tri-Ace are just fragment pieces of the original Tales team.


8-Bit_Jack said:
What have they done recently that was so great? I know they MUST have, but all that's popping up are the huge disappoinments.
To be honest, there are some good looking things. Bravely Default looks to be possibly one of their best games. And A Realm Reborn is shaping up to be a pretty good MMORPG. But I agree that there's isn't much outside of that.

8-Bit_Jack said:
Final Fantasy XIII: a terrible game, even if you like JRPGS (and i do).
Agreed. Final Fantasy XIII is one of the worst Japanese RPGs I've ever played.

8-Bit_Jack said:
And just recently, whining about disc copies driving them out of business when it's clear they have no idea how to spend their budget (advertising twice as much as the game could possibly make up for, spending millions to make an otherwise crappy game LOOK really shiny, etc).
Physical media does cost a lot, and I don't honestly blame them for not liking it. There's a reason why most Kickstarter projects don't even bother with physical versions. Getting out discs onto market costs millions of dollars alone. And it's a wasted expense when digital can be an is the future, especially when DRM-free stores exist. The price they pay here for preventing piracy isn't worth it. And basically one of the reasons that so many companies favor console releases in the first place is that consoles are basically a form of DRM. Console fans don't like to admit it, but their big device they like to see as better than PCs is basically just an overwrought form of DRM. Just XBOX One just wanted to take it a step further.

If Square Enix wants to move away from physical. Then they should put more stuff on the PlayStation Network and Steam. Goodness knows they put all the stuff from their Western developers on Steam.

I know that fans of their games were raised on consoles. As are fans of most Japanese games. But there's no reason to assume there isn't a growing market for this type of game on PC. People would be happy to buy most of their games on Steam and Good old Games for that matter.
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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Really, Squeenix can go screw itself into the ground for all i care. I'm probably one of the few people who actually enjoyed FF XIII but once they started sequelizing it all went to pot (I couldnt get into FF XIII-2 and its pretty boy/girl cast no matter how i tried), KH interested me not at all, Crisis core was mweh, etc etc. The only thing that gives me any interest in them is XV and the hope that it might be an interesting new addition to the series.

Really though, since i discovered the Tales games, FF doesnt do it for me any more...
 

Saltyk

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Sep 12, 2010
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Why do I care about Square Enix? Simple. They have made several games which I consider to be among my all time favorite games. If I were to list my favorite PS One games, a large chunk of them would be Square titles. FFVII, FFT, Brave Fencer Musashi, and several very good solid games. People say Rare was the best developer for the N64. Well, I'd say Square was the best developer for the PS One.

As for complaints about Zack, those sound hollow. Cloud was every bit as capable in Advent Children as Zack was in Crisis Core (and Zack failed plenty of times, by the way). And I really enjoyed Crisis Core. Hardest thing I ever did was finish it though. I really didn't want Zack to die. And Sephiroth was stated to be most powerful in Advent Children. And Cloud did beat Sephiroth (even if Sephiroth was toying with him). Zack was bested by a far weaker version of Sephiroth. And barely bested Angeal and Genesis, who were both inferior to Sephiroth.

I'll admit, I hated Final Fantasy XIII's combat. It played itself with barely any player input. Less than XII and I found that boring. But I don't agree that the plot was stupid or the character's were bad. Sure, you may not have liked the characters, but that's on you. I seriously hated Hope early on. But he got better as things progressed which made it feel less like a pain to use him in battle (since he was such a well rounded party member). Vanille had little reason to exist, I admit. But I didn't hate any of the characters. And everything I hated about Snow, were the exact same things that I liked about him. FFXIII was flawed and not really a game I would say is objectively good, but I don't think all the complaints are fair.

Beyond that, they have published some good games recently. And I'm actually kinda hopeful for FFXV. It looks pretty decent and seems to steal some ideas from Kingdom Hearts (not a bad thing). And looks gorgeous. And Kingdom Hearts 3 is a game I have been looking forward to for a long time. I should probably pick up Birth By Sleep and Dream Drop Distance at some point, though. I've heard good things.

Bottom line: Why do you care? If you hate them, don't buy their games. That will show them!
 

00slash00

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TizzytheTormentor said:
00slash00 said:
Arina Love said:
i care because i liked FFXIII as well as XIII-2 and now i'm having a blast with FFXIV ARR. To me SE delivered nothing but quality entertainment. Cannot wait for Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII!
Hooray, I've found one of the like 5 people in the world who also liked 13! I have my copy of Lightning Returns preordered
I am only on the fence with Lightning Returns because of the doomsday clock (it annoyed me in Majoras Mask, it will probably annoy me here) But other than that, it looks quite good.

As you know, I am not much of a fan of the first game, but I loved XIII-2, I might pre-order it on my PS4 if I can.
Ah yes, I remember our lengthy conversation fondly (one of my few experiences here where a difference of opinion didn't turn in to two people attacking each other). Yeah, I don't like games where I'm timed either (though I didn't really mind it in Majora's Mask, which is my favorite Zelda game). I also don't like to pre-order games since I like to wait for reviews, but I didn't want to stop 2/3 of the way through the story so I knew I'd probably be getting it anyway. I figured I might as well also get the bonus costume
 

McMarbles

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I'll care up until the DQVII remake and Bravely Default have made it over here.

After that, they can go rot. Unless more Dragon Quest happens...