Star Citizen Too Much Game for Consoles to "Handle"

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KillerRabbit

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Jan 3, 2009
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BrotherRool said:
KillerRabbit said:
BrotherRool said:
This is what I fear most about kickstarters, not that the game won't be made or won't be good, but that the specs will be too high to run.

Seriously, console specs might not be elite but they're still higher than the Steam survey average. He's either BSing or backers are going to be left out in the cold.
I'm pretty sure most that have backed Star Citizens know the demand the game will put on a PC. If they have not read what Star Citizen is about (pushing the graphics limit for Space Games)... well those will be disappointed but that's their own fault if they do not read up on what they throw their money at. However - on PC there is this cool graphic options so you could always turn down graphic settings to lowest and still have it playable.

And it's not that costly to build a budget/performance computer that will run the game on average details either.

What is lame though, is to try to compare two games between each other, when neither of them is released!

From what I can tell, both games look good and will find a good audience, I'll personally try out both!
If you can turn the graphics down to put on a lower end PC, you can release a console game with those graphic settings :p
I guess they could. But I am glad they put focus on a pure PC build first, and not the other way around for once. Grand Theft Auto got popular on PC, after that the new ones only was released on consoles first only to get a crappy PC port almost a year after.

I actually don't care if they release a version for consoles AFTER the main game is fleshed out, bug fixed etc.. But for once I want to play a Space Sim that is actually built towards high end PC's with highly detailed models etc - which they promised and people backed them for so..

I don't see why they could have a separate "kickstarting" unit to port over to the consoles at least the single player story aspect of the game, as long it would not affect the original teams progress, features & details for the *real* ;) PC build!
 

BrotherRool

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KillerRabbit said:
I guess they could. But I am glad they put focus on a pure PC build first, and not the other way around for once. Grand Theft Auto got popular on PC, after that the new ones only was released on consoles first only to get a crappy PC port almost a year after.

I actually don't care if they release a version for consoles AFTER the main game is fleshed out, bug fixed etc.. But for once I want to play a Space Sim that is actually built towards high end PC's with highly detailed models etc - which they promised and people backed them for so..

I don't see why they could have a separate "kickstarting" unit to port over to the consoles at least the single player story aspect of the game, as long it would not affect the original teams progress, features & details for the *real* ;) PC build!
Oh don't get me wrong I'm not asking for a console version, I think that would be a terrible idea. Star Citizen already has the enormous challenge of completing the things it promised to do. There's no reason to even consider making a console version.

I was just basically pointing out that he was quote was just BSing to give his PC fans an ego boost and maybe even to grab him some headlines.

Unless Star Citizen genuinely can't run on anything with less than 16GB RAM. Which would mean the developers are doing a terrible job
 

MrHide-Patten

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KingsGambit said:
MrHide-Patten said:
Move over Crysis theres a new melter of systems incoming. More power to the PC players, but y'know, console scrub, so that counts me out personally. This must be how Wii-U owners feel... all the time.
Hey, what's wrong with you? You have grace, manners and kind words. You know this is an Internet gaming forum, right? Haven't even made an effort to start a flame war.
As a wise man once said; "I'm an agent of Chaos..."
But hey, it's an occasion where a developer is going; that things to shitty for our game, so we're not going to release on it. It's an act of sympathy.

KingsGambit said:
I think there should always be at least one game on the horizon that showcases the best of what can be done.
I think there has been more then one occasion where people have said the 'graphical arms race' is the thing that's killing the industry with budgets bing blown on only the most swankiest of graphics. There are many ways to make a game great without 5 millon particle shaders on screen, but as my experince has shown, the masses love the particles.

But then people spend a lot of time and money on their rigs, gotta make that cost amount to something.
 
Apr 5, 2008
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Vault101 said:
KingsGambit said:
off the top of my head

GTX 680
8gb RAM
i7 processor which I think is only like 3.4 or something (forgot the numbers)

but yeah, I don't know what rules (if any) pretain to how the money is used but in this case its less risk so far as I can tell (unless they botch up the budget which is know to happen)
That's a pretty great spec, certainly top end if maybe 1 year old *gasp*. The 680 is the top single-core card of its gen, the i7 is the unqualified top and 8GB is plenty. It will really come down to just how much they push performance in the pursuit of quality. I have similar spec but one gen newer parts and am already expecting that AA will be off/low and reflections & shadows will be on medium which I hope will be enough to max almost everything else @ 1080/60fps :)

There's also all the tricks that PC cards support that I don't know if consoles do (I think the newer ones do), like ambient occlusion, tessellation, CUDA, etc. that could be used advantageously. But in a way it's cool that the game has a high potential ceiling; people who've invested even more in Crossfire/SLi or the Titan [http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487036] (or even 3 Titans in SLi! [http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/geforce-gtx-titan-3-way-sli-review,1.html]) will have something to make use of their shiny toys.

I think this is a game a lot of people will upgrade for [http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/s/build+run+star+citizen/], which says a lot. Not much created by Activision, EA, Ubisoft, 2K or Squeenix for years has been enough to urge people to upgrade. "I need a new PC to run Dead Space 3!", said no one, ever.

---------------------------

About the money, no idea on the rules either. I'd expect that the money from backers should be earmarked for development/equipment/tools/server infrastructure for creating, launching and publishing the game. Like if they raised (quick Google search) $44 million [http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/24/5747660/star-citizen-crowdfunding-record-arena-commander-44-million-] (*Dr. Evil pinkie in mouth*) I don't think they can pocket $4 mill or give it out as bonuses. At the same time, it can't be possible to use every last penny; at some point the game will be done. I don't imagine they'll have one last programmer being stopwatched to run out the budget. Any leftover could fairly be used for ongoing support or development of new features. Or they could overspend and need to recoup some costs.

My guess is they'll spend the majority of the $44m on development with a little leftover which can fund ongoing patching, bug fixing, QA, customer support and also to keep some liquidity in case they have a lean month. But every penny they earn from sales will be profit since they won't need to recoup a thing. And the developer of the game will get every penny from its sales, not give up the lion's share to a publisher, console manufacturer or maybe even digital-distribution platform.
 

MrBaskerville

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They could probably just downscale it, if i´m ever going to play it, it´s probably going to be on low graphics settings anyway (Will probably never get a laptop that could handle this on full). But i´m glad to hear that Elite Dangerous is heading for consoles, that might finally be a reason (aside from Bloodborne) to be interested in a ps4.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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KingsGambit said:
thanks...in nay case even if I was going to get it (who knows) I wouldnt be sad if I couldn't max it out on Ultra given its a "system burner"
 

nevarran

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That's what they promised - a PC game, zero compromise. That's the promise they have to keep.
Otherwise there will be some angry backers out there.
 

Rozalia1

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KingsGambit said:
I agree, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. The game was entirely crowdfunded (my understanding that it's the most successful crowdfunded game to date) so all the development and infrastructure is already paid for by the backers. When the game comes to market, assuming every penny from crowdfunding went into development, on Day 1 RSI will have "broken even" I suppose (for lack of a better term). A single sale will therefore put it into profitability (excepting ongoing costs). When a publisher spends $20mill on development, that means a game has to make at least that much back before breaking even whereas as a backer I get the game, RSI owns the IP and on Day 1 have already broken even.

To port it to console, all the models and textures will have to be significantly downsized, new server farms for each "walled garden" (that is, XBL and PSN), the complexity brought down and most significantly, the back-end/engine will need to support the hardware and APIs of the different consoles (being X86 may help somewhat). On top of that, Sony/MS would want their cut of each sale (30%?).
Its not a near impossibility they'll have difficulties, they aren't a certain success.

Hence why I used the phrase "bend over backwards", a lot can be waved through if they feel like it.

Strazdas said:
so whatever happens they must get on consoles and anyone that does not use consoles are "marks". and then you proclaim being "neutral". yeah, you may end up being the first escapist ever to get to my ignore list.
Must? Never said that, I don't make absolute statements hence why I made sure that lovely word "likely" was right at the end of that line.

The short of it is you are incorrect in the conclusion you've drawn in relation to my usage of the word mark...to put it long.

Lets put it this way, they want to sell a certain story to a certain group of people so they cut a nice heel promo coming off all mean and tough putting down the other guys. Now why would a heel cut a promo to gather cheers? Well they're heels to console marks, and faces to PC marks (to put it all very crudely so note that, anyway the nature of how they say things means its still a heel promo though). Its a USA-Canada thing if you get what that is referencing.
Those booing, and cheering all this on are marks at the end of the day, nothing wrong with that (though it should be discouraged) at the end of the day of course as people make their own life choices...hey if it makes them feel better they can know I'm an Ambro, Zigzag, and even a FeedMeMoron...we all have our vices in life.

Anyway I don't really care, their promos don't cause me to cheer or boo...just silence from me. Now I'm sure you'll say how is me posting here silence, well used in the context of cheering+booing what I'm doing is essentially giving them silence. If I was to be buying their product this wouldn't change anything, and if I wasn't then it'd also have no effect either.
Its just me giving my own view of the events regarding them and how well they are playing people, I do enjoy some nice heel work after all and I will compliment it.
No malice from me , which is what I get the impression you always think it all comes from.

Now considering how much misunderstanding comes about between us I have no hope in this setting things straight, as I've laid things out like this before to no avail. No condensation, or malice again I just know that we never see eye to eye and will if left unchecked go on for ages and ages faffing about all over the place. In an effort of diplomacy I won't waste your time of course, or my own on such futile matters.

See I'm a nice understanding guy, not as big a meaniehead as you thought I hope.

Captcha = Well Heeled

I thought captcha was supposed to be the face to the spambots heel...but from the looks of that message the Captcha has turned heel on us...explains all those spambots I've been seeing recently. Oh and I'm not a Heel captcha, I'm a face obviously.
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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That's what they all say. They're usually lying or mistaken. Actually, this one's probably both.
 

loc978

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I find it odd that he's focusing on specs... I mean, sure, a 2Ghz 8-core CPU would get bogged down pretty quickly with a complex open-space physics flight game (though people get far too hung up on video processing here... I'm sure it could run on one of those bastardized APUs with low texture quality... 1k on down. It would just tank its framerate whenever battles, large numbers of ships or collisions are nearby thanks to its weak CPU cores)... but the real problem with playing such a game on any console is the controls.
Here's a control reference for the old DOS TIE Fighter game:
...you couldn't fit half of that on a thumbstick controller, and Star Citizen is going to make that look simple. Hell, Freespace made that look simple.
 
Apr 5, 2008
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MrHide-Patten said:
KingsGambit said:
I think there should always be at least one game on the horizon that showcases the best of what can be done.
I think there has been more then one occasion where people have said the 'graphical arms race' is the thing that's killing the industry with budgets bing blown on only the most swankiest of graphics. There are many ways to make a game great without 5 millon particle shaders on screen, but as my experince has shown, the masses love the particles.

But then people spend a lot of time and money on their rigs, gotta make that cost amount to something.
Both good points. As I said above, while it may mean that even my rig can't max the game @ 1080/60fps, it is a nice thing for those with super setups with SLi and Titans, multiple monitors, 4k, etc to be able to have something that justifies and shows it off.

As for the graphical arms race, I'm not convinced it's entirely to blame for ludicrously inflated budgets. It takes no more time to make a high res texture than a low res one. A higher poly model might take a fraction more time, but the same model can be exported with lower poly counts (which can't be done the other way around). In fact, I'm almost certain that modellers do make highest poly models in the first instance before downsampling it. I used watch dogs as an example in poorly ported UIs above, but it also did something else, quite famously. The "bullshots scandal" with which it was inexorably associated showed that they had a version of the game with better models, textures and shaders. They then expended developer time and resources to make it worse in all regards. They spent money on downgrading the game.

I think the biggest causes of budget inflation come from other sources. Tomb Raider (reboot) cost a comfortable 9 figures to create (hence even 5-7million sales wasn't a good performance). Squeenix, for example, have spent *millions* on a new mocap studio [http://2p.com/6697883_1/A-Glance-at-Square-Enix-Motion-Capture-Studio-Visual-Works-by-flamedust.htm]. That's why they'll cram in mocap into everything hereafter. Tomb Raider, Thief (which didn't need or benefit from it in the slightest and that no franchise fans wanted or asked for) and others will be using mocap since that's what they think we want. Then there's the voice acting, especially in games where the protag is fully VAd as well (ME and DA2 chief among them).

Also consider online stuffs. An offline game is developed and sold, end of story. An always-online one has to have a server infrastructure that is much more costly to build and maintain and a Net connection able to meet bandwidth demands.

I don't believe having better models, textures, shaders or post-processing (features handled by the engine and either there or not there) adds significant amounts to development costs. Those are proportional to the amount of content, how thoroughly the content is tested/polished and, more relevant to modern games, how many extra technologies are licensed for the game. Using other studios to outsource parts of the game or licensing technologies such as Havok, Scaleform, Nixxes, Bink, Dolby Digital, Steamworks, etc. as well as a non-inhouse engine all costs money. Plus for consoles, the cost of devkits (admittedly one offs and also nothing new), getting certified and the fees Sony/MS/Steam take from sales adds up. Throw in masses of voice acting, loads of cutscenes, mocap and crazy marketing it's more expensive than it used to be.
 

Haru17

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Building a PC, a totally rewarding gameplay experience, definitely not something they literally pay people to do. Also; your console CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
 

Exterminas

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There is a huge difference between making a PC-Game that demands a certain level of current-gen hardware and between making a poorly optimized PC-Game.

Reading the statement in the OP I feel like they are trying to use their badassery as an escapegoat for the eventual problem that PCs have lots of possible hardware configerations, many of which demand extra effort on the side of the devs in order to get the most out of them.

What I am trying to say is that a game being demanding on the hardware isn't in itself a virtue. It also has to look the part and should not be more demanding than neccesary for the way it looks.

For a positive example see the latest Thief-Game. Despite being a modest step forwards in graphics it runs well on older machines and the lower graphics settings don't look like a mess.

Contrary to that, Total War Shogun 2 still makes my PC roar and has obscene loading times, despite the fact that it's graphics aren't all that awesome unless you zoom in close enough to see your soldier's chopsticks.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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Even as old as their poor choice of graphics engine is, it'll still run horribly.

They're still barely past the concept stages and it's already coming up on 2 years in development.

I'm an hour-one backer, but I'm really starting to worry about this project more as time goes on.
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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Sounds like he's cutting out a lot of regular PC gamers too, by his words its going to be a game for the truly rich PC elite only. Not all of us can afford GTX 780 cards and Liquid cooling systems...
 
Apr 5, 2008
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Rozalia1 said:
KingsGambit said:
I agree, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. The game was entirely crowdfunded (my understanding that it's the most successful crowdfunded game to date) so all the development and infrastructure is already paid for by the backers. When the game comes to market, assuming every penny from crowdfunding went into development, on Day 1 RSI will have "broken even" I suppose (for lack of a better term). A single sale will therefore put it into profitability (excepting ongoing costs). When a publisher spends $20mill on development, that means a game has to make at least that much back before breaking even whereas as a backer I get the game, RSI owns the IP and on Day 1 have already broken even.

To port it to console, all the models and textures will have to be significantly downsized, new server farms for each "walled garden" (that is, XBL and PSN), the complexity brought down and most significantly, the back-end/engine will need to support the hardware and APIs of the different consoles (being X86 may help somewhat). On top of that, Sony/MS would want their cut of each sale (30%?).
Its not a near impossibility they'll have difficulties, they aren't a certain success.

Hence why I used the phrase "bend over backwards", a lot can be waved through if they feel like it.
I don't see it happening. For one thing, the Kickstarter proposal was for a PC space sim, a genre that traditional publishers have no interest in. I happily backed the development for a PC exclusive game, not a cross platform game, so to divert development resources into making a port cannot and should not come from that budget.

For another, as the OP states in the article and quotes from the dev, consoles cannot handle this game. The hardware is not sufficient to process the 100k poly models (consoles, at least last gen were closer to 10k polys or less), the physics, textures, AI and lack the memory to have expansive maps with lots of objects in them. Another thing as has been mentioned by ioc978, the controls couldn't be mapped to a joypad only. Using X series games as an example, the number of functions is greater than the number of buttons available on a joypad. I use a joypad for piloting/dogfighting, but have to use the keyboard for the cargo bay, tractor beam, SETA, transporter, etc. Not even mentioning the trading, management and ship setup screens.

When I browse through kickstarter, or have in the past, I don't back iOS/Android games or anything cross-platform. I want PC games, not ports, but traditional publishers no longer provide those. Hence I gladly funded Star Citizen, Project Eternity, Torment and other PC games. IF they made lots of profit on sales and used that to make a console port, I wouldn't take any issue with that in the least but it's not likely. They'd have to scale it back in every possible way just to have it run on consoles, not to mention creating an entirely new UI, maintaining separate server farms and more.

Halo, published by Microsoft, the very same company that created DirectX and whose Windows OS runs on ~95% of personal computers worldwide is not available for Windows. They *own* the IP, they own the proprietary API and the Windows OS and it's not available for it. I don't hear anything about porting Dragon's Dogma, Last of Us, Uncharted, Heavy Rain, inFamous or other exclusives to other platforms. RSI has no need to port it, just as they don't need to port Heavy Rain. Would they make money by doing so? Most likely. But they accept less money and keep it exclusive.

Lastly, you're missing one crucial point. Unlike a traditional publisher funded/developed game, Star Citizen was crowdfunded in its entirety. When Bungie made Halo, MS paid for and published the development. Bungie got some money from sales, MS got the lion's share 9and own the rights to the franchise) and the game *had* to sell so many copies just to break even on the initial investment. Star Citizen is entirely owned by RSI and they don't need to pay me, a backer, a thing. When the game is released, from Day 1 launch day they will already have broken even, every sale is profit and every penny of that goes to RSI, not other companies (excepting for any licensing issues which might exist but about which I know nothing).

This is a very important point since even if they release an awful game which doesn't sell a single copy, it still won't be a financial failure. There are no losses to recoup, no publishers to appease, no shareholders expecting dividends.

Sony might "bend over backwards" to release a successful game on their platform, so might Microsoft. I don't see it happening. I've not heard of a single instance where any console manufacturer has done such a thing, approaching a developer with an existing game and canvassing or offering special considerations to entice them to release. They either pay for and publish (in whole or in part) the game (such as MS with Halo, Sony with Killzone or Nintendo with every Mario, Zelda, Donky Kong game ever) or pay the developers "a sum of money" for exclusivity (ostensibly to make up for the potential income lost by *not* releasing on a different platform).
 

Nikolaz72

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Apr 23, 2009
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Quellist said:
Sounds like he's cutting out a lot of regular PC gamers too, by his words its going to be a game for the truly rich PC elite only. Not all of us can afford GTX 780 cards and Liquid cooling systems...
Well by appealing to the people they're appealing to they've already earned twodigits of millions for developement and 200.000 users. <_<.
 

Caiphus

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Mar 31, 2010
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Vault101 said:
off the top of my head

GTX 680
8gb RAM
i7 processor which I think is only like 3.4 or something (forgot the numbers)

but yeah, I don't know what rules (if any) pretain to how the money is used but in this case its less risk so far as I can tell (unless they botch up the budget which is know to happen)
With those specs, I can't imagine that you won't be able to play the game. If you can't, then it's likely that they'll be cutting out a prohibitively large portion of their market, including a large number of their backers.

But, then again, they're already making sick bank before the game even releases. So maybe they can afford to do that.
 
Apr 5, 2008
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I want to quote the part from their Kickstarter page [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen] that was all it took to get my backing:

The traditional publishers don't believe in PC or Space Sims. Venture Capitalists only want to back mobile or social gaming start ups.

We say they're wrong. We say that there is a large audience of PC gamers that want sophisticated games built for their platform. And inside this audience, a significant group of people that have always loved space games, and if given a quality one again will be happy to play it.

Ask not what your genre can do for you, but what you can do for your favorite genre.

Let's put high-end PC gaming and Space Sims back on the map!
That's it. I read this then gave them money. Because I agree with it.

Activision, ubi, EA, etc want to release re-hashed action-adventure games annually, usually with a combination of chest-high walls, sticky cover, QTEs, set pieces, endless cutscenes and lite RPG-elements. I'm tired of those. I want a space sim, I want isometric/party based RPGs, I want open worlds, I want cyberpunk and steampunk, I want games where choice matters, I want games that withhold content in any given playthru (making each unique). And if it can exist without compromises for consoles, I'll back it.