Star Trek Deep Space Nine: Anyone else think Commander Kira is a complete monster?

[senordesol]

Meh. I ask: would we do ANY less were we invaded by an alien species bent on slowly wiping us out?

From the perspective of a freedom fighter, I imagine the formula is quite simple: "Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Genocidal invader, you want us to stop killing all your friends and family? Leave!"

'Moral' High-ground, I imagine, would not be a concern. At that point, winning would be more important than 'being right'.

 

[tmande2nd]

Yeah but Kira changes into a better person.

Just watch the Episode Duet to see that.
Really though I think it was intentional at the start to show how bitter and hateful she really was.

But the question to be really asked is what you would do if you were in her shoes?
If someone invaded Earth and did horrible things to you and your family would you sit by?
Most people would probably stop caring and do whatever they could to hurt them.

An awful thing to think about, but if push comes to shove you wont have to look far to find people in ANY city who would bomb civilians and soldiers alike in a war.

 

[Creedsareevil]

Everything has been said already so let me add this:

Kira goes to cardassia to help them free themselves from the dominion. She could have rejected but her sense of duty and that little bit of guilt over her resistance years drove her to do it.


In the end, her efforts were instrumental in ending the dominion war a few battles earlier. That saved countless lives on the side of the alliance forces and DEFINETLY saved cardassia as a world, nation and people. Becasue the dominion was just about to call it quits on holding back on the whole "genocide them!" thing.



Kira as a chracter had a long journey to redemption. And she got there.


oh and BTw.

Morals are a luxury. You have no luxury in a fight for survival.

 

[ForumSafari]

Cardassia like Nazi Germany there very few innocents, the policies enjoyed widespread public support and no one could be under any illusions about what those policies are.

But that's entirely wrong, in fact a large amount of the operation around the Holocaust was in fabricating plausible deniability and keeping as few people aware of it as possible. In fact the German people on the whole never supported the Nazi regime, the German resistance was pretty damn extensive and the Nazis never had a majority approval rating.

While there where implications as to what was going on, it was probably paralleling world war two and the escapees from the death camps, who despite telling the truth to the allies where not believed due to it being unimaginable.

It's worth noting here that the Federation is more than just humanity and that humanity isn't in charge. It's also worth noting that it's strongly implied in several hints that the kind of genocide humanity has carried out isn't something that a lot of species have done in their history. It's possible therefore that a large chunk of the Federation membership simply won't understand the concept even if the humans do (and after the Eugenics wars it's possible that knowledge is lost, though they never cover this afaik)

Maybe this is my post 9/11 pov, but freedom fighter or not, Kira and her band of Bajorans were terrorist. They didn't just attack/kill the politicians and rules occupying their planet but those people's familys, or hell anyone that was just your blue collar cardassian trying to make ends meet.

Friendly reminder that prior to towers-fall-down-terrorism-now-evil-day the citizens of the USA were the second largest financial contributors to the IRA. One of the more commonly mouthed platitudes at the time was something along the lines of 'what is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?'

 

[DudeistBelieve]

This whole thing sounds kinda like the deathstar convo from Clerks.

You know, the question was if the DeathStar was being built by independent contractors in the last movie if it was okay for Luke and the Rebels to essentially murder them to blow it up again.

Never felt that was okay either.

 

[happyninja42]

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I'm not condemning her for doing it, I understand it. What angers me is that after going through all that, that she's okay with it.

I'm sorry, but even in War time, if one ever feels okay/good about killing civilians that is a sign one is really mentally fucked up.

Except there were plenty of episodes where she's shown to not be ok with it. She might be living with it, but she's not just fine with it. Again, like I said above, I think a lot of this is due to the actress. She doesn't do emotional range very well, and frequently seemed to convey the wrong emotion on screen. And she might be telling herself that it was justified so she can sleep at night, but she's not always ok with it. And yeah, she is a little mentally fucked up. She grew up in a concentration camp, subjugated and enslaved to a tyrannical race set on wiping her people out. She didn't have what you might call a well adjusted upbringing.

 

[JimB]

I don't think terrorism against civilians is ever acceptable.

Okay, fair enough, but that only answers one of the questions I asked. There was a follow-up: How do you expect an oppressed people to fight a militarily superior invader without violating your personal morals? What ought the Bajorans to have done instead?

 

[senordesol]

This whole thing sounds kinda like the deathstar convo from Clerks.

You know, the question was if the DeathStar was being built by independent contractors in the last movie if it was okay for Luke and the Rebels to essentially murder them to blow it up again.

Never felt that was okay either.

So much the better that the Empire actually finish its near-invincible planet killing space station?

Seems like morality in this case is self-defeating.

 

[Ratty]

This whole thing sounds kinda like the deathstar convo from Clerks.

You know, the question was if the DeathStar was being built by independent contractors in the last movie if it was okay for Luke and the Rebels to essentially murder them to blow it up again.

Never felt that was okay either.

Yeah it is. I like Kira, but I don't think you're ever supposed to 100% agree with everything she did. She's a flawed, complicated character and when she starts to see the Cardassians as more "human" it does upset her. I mean you saw the episode "Second Skin" already right? I like that some people have pointed out how Garak makes an interesting counterpoint to her. Both characters think horrible things they've done have been justified for ideological/patriotic reasons, Garak is actually a little more unrepentant about it though. Kira grows as a person as the show goes on and she adjusts to not being a rebel, whereas Garak's development is usually just us learning more about him rather than him changing.

Also where the hell was all this halocaust shit on Bajor during THE NEXT GENERATION?

You mean to tell me space genocide was going on but Ro was able to escape and join Starfleet?

Trekkies, I don't wish to mock the lore but none of this shit is making sense

Bajor was not a Federation planet. The Federation might have condemned the occupation. But their strict code of non-interference would prevent them from doing anything more than providing assistance to refugees and maybe having trade sanctions against Cardassia. I mean remember TNG episode "Pen Pals" where Picard was ready to let a pre-warp humanoid species be completely wiped out in order to protect the Prime Directive?

The Federation's inability to act on the brutality happening in front of them on Bajor is a major reason Ro initially rebelled against them.

Spoiler: Major TNG spoilers

Similar reasons to why she betrayed the Federation to join the Maquis in the second-to-last TNG episode.

It's also one of the reasons Bajor is wary of the Federation for much of the series, remember that from episode 1 the Federation are helping run DS9 on invitation from the Bajorans who actually own it, since Bajor is still not a Federation planet. Hence Odo and Kira's Bajoran rather than Starfleet uniforms.

 

[Arcane Azmadi]

My problem with Kira is that in that episode she sees first hand how her actions fucked up that poor guys life, and she is completed unrepentant. This guys whole side of his body is fucked up, all his friends were needlessly murdered, and she bassically acts like he should of just moved on from that. I'd feel differently if she showed even an ounce of compassion, and don't tell me that's impossible since we've seen her be with other cardassion's before (remember the guy posing as the head of the labor camp?)

As I pointed out in my post, I'd be more surprised if Kira did show Silaran Prin any compassion. The guy has already murdered several of her friends and is planning on killing her. Why would she give him so much as the time of day- especially when he's touting the usual smug, self-righteous Cardassian propaganda about how the Bajorans were in the wrong for resisting the Occupation that saw 15 million of them dead?

 

[Ark of the Covetor]

Oh and you know, what good does slaughtering civilians? Yeah kill the file clerk's daughter. That'll get him to pack up and leave.

It worked for the Afghans against the Soviets. The trick isn't to outright kill them, just maim them so that they get sent home and become a burden to their own society. Force the occupying side to develop it's own misgivings about the occupation.

Probably not in tune with the Roddenberry Ideal, but honestly alot of what he wanted Trek to be was kind Utopian nonesense, nothing in nature acts how he'd like it to.

The point of Gene's idea of Trek is the same as the point of utopian sci-fi in general, and is just as frequently misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented by the cynical; it's something to aspire to, not a blueprint to be followed. Of course the Federation are impossibly perfect idealists, that's the whole point, they're supposed to go into situations that resemble the problems and issues of modern society and react to them/fix them in ways "real" people wouldn't or couldn't, because the point is to inspire us to actually think about ourselves, to wonder if we can find ways to be better than we are rather than just accepting things as they stand.

That's why I find the type of people who seem to take literal joy in the idea of "tearing down" the more utopian aspects of Trek(which sadly DS9 was all too happy to do as the seasons wore on) rather sad, more than anything else, because they're convinced that their view is being vindicated and they're somehow posthumously "teaching Roddenberry a lesson", when the reality is they just wallowed so deeply in their own cynicism that they totally missed the point.

 

[MHR]

What, it's just the casualties of war if a big government does it, but isolated cells doing whatever it takes are just "terrorists" and that makes it worse somehow? War is war.

She's not even starfleet. Expecting the same standards of her is silly.

 

[Breakdown]

Oh and you know, what good does slaughtering civilians? Yeah kill the file clerk's daughter. That'll get him to pack up and leave.

It worked for the Afghans against the Soviets. The trick isn't to outright kill them, just maim them so that they get sent home and become a burden to their own society. Force the occupying side to develop it's own misgivings about the occupation.

Probably not in tune with the Roddenberry Ideal, but honestly alot of what he wanted Trek to be was kind Utopian nonesense, nothing in nature acts how he'd like it to.

The point of Gene's idea of Trek is the same as the point of utopian sci-fi in general, and is just as frequently misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented by the cynical; it's something to aspire to, not a blueprint to be followed. Of course the Federation are impossibly perfect idealists, that's the whole point, they're supposed to go into situations that resemble the problems and issues of modern society and react to them/fix them in ways "real" people wouldn't or couldn't, because the point is to inspire us to actually think about ourselves, to wonder if we can find ways to be better than we are rather than just accepting things as they stand.

That's why I find the type of people who seem to take literal joy in the idea of "tearing down" the more utopian aspects of Trek(which sadly DS9 was all too happy to do as the seasons wore on) rather sad, more than anything else, because they're convinced that their view is being vindicated and they're somehow posthumously "teaching Roddenberry a lesson", when the reality is they just wallowed so deeply in their own cynicism that they totally missed the point.

the problem with Roddenberry's vision is that the Federation are so powerful and advanced that it's easy for the characters to be benevolent and altruistic, because in most instances this doesn't particularly inconvenience them or cause them hardship. The Enterprise just flies off at the end of the episode with no long term repercussions. A lot of Next Generation episodes just feel like a bunch of smug, unrelatable elitists talking down to the inferior alien race/long lost colony of the week.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I haven't seen the show, but it always bugged me when they slaughter in shows non combatants and then say it's morally justifiable because they were "evil culture", no it doesn't.

The Cardassians are never portrayed as an Evil Culture at any point in the series. They are definitely on the harsher side of things, but they've never been flat out evil. There are several sympathetic Cardassians throughout the show's run, and just as many cruel ones like Dukat. Dukat is certainly a monster, but even I wouldn't call him pure evil. Sisko is the only one to call Dukat "truly evil" but that was after he'd spent an entire episode being beaten by Dukat with a lead pipe while the Cardassian was driven mad by his own demons.

 

[Vivi22]

Also where the hell was all this halocaust shit on Bajor during THE NEXT GENERATION?

You mean to tell me space genocide was going on but Ro was able to escape and join Starfleet?

Trekkies, I don't wish to mock the lore but none of this shit is making sense

You need to keep in mind that the prime directive is the Federations highest law, and they would not go to war over a single planet being invaded and butchered by a rather large enemy that they had already had a war with 10-20 years earlier. Which sounds awful, and it is and I'm sure there would have been people in the Federation at the very least advocating action, if not pursuing diplomatic means to attempt to resolve the conflict on Bajor. But the Federation doesn't intervene in other worlds politics and development unless either directly attacked, or asked for assistance by a planets government. And in some ways that philosophy is necessary because they have to maintain an alliance between more than 150 member worlds of the Federation and are surrounded on nearly all sides by enemies. So some people get hurt, and that sucks and they realize it sucks, but what they're trying to build and maintain doesn't really allow for getting proactive USA style and sending in the troops without some huge consequences internally and externally.

Plus we should all know by now that US style intervention almost never works so there's that too. A region has to be pretty stable before a war and stand a chance of being stabilized again after a war for it to make sense. And even then, are you willing to lose tens of millions of lives fighting for one planet? Or worst case scenario end up losing literally every world you have and have sworn to protect if other factions decide to come at you while you're busy fighting Cardassians?

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

snippy

You have to understand that for the bajorans, there were no civilians. The cardassians took their planet and subjugated their entire race. Every bajoran was a victim. Growing up in that environment, of course you wouldn't see a difference between cardassians. They treat you all like cattle, so you treat them all as the enemy. This is a cultural value that Kira grew up with; it isn't good or evil in that regard, just the norm for her.

After a few years around more compassionate people, she learns a lot. She's never okay with cardassians as a group, but she learns enough to not wish destruction on their people. I just don't think it's fair to write her off as an unredeemable killer when all she did was what her entire life had taught her to do.

 

[Johnny Impact]

War isn't about killing generals or heads of state. That may certainly happen. What war is about is destroying the enemy's will and capacity to fight. If you're under the thumb of an oppressor, you have the same requirement (destroy the oppressor's will) but none of the conveniences like weapons or a standing army of your own. You can't access generals or heads of state unless you're incredibly lucky. Soldiers/police are armed and trained to resist you. You are reduced to hurting any and every member of the oppressing faction you can, civilians included, in any way possible, whenever possible. This can mean ambushing police or government officials, but it also means you're desperate and opportunistic enough to use improvised bombs in crowded areas, suicide strikes, and so forth. Any act, no matter how vile, that will convince even one member of the oppressing faction that the occupation isn't worth the trouble is a victory. Indeed, showing them there is nothing you won't do is a powerful demoralizer in itself. You simply don't have the luxury of conscience when your people are being tortured and worked to death.

 

[BoogieManFL]

The Cardassians did horrible unspeakable thing to the Bajorans, and their homeworld was no longer under their control nor was their destiny. I imagine it wouldn't take much to turn to total war in this situation when all you saw in someone was their race.


Think about it, if Earth was being invaded by hostile aliens, do you really think you'd let them make themselves immune to your attacks by stationing "innocent civilians" at all their facilities? In general, killing non combatants is a terrible thing, as is killing indiscriminately.. But if your world is being conquered and your race is being exterminated, being used as slave laborers and lab rats, I think most people would be willing to resort to almost anything to resist.

It's one of those no holding back situations. Some of them knew what they were doing was terrible, but it was necessary. Others just grew up watching their families get tortured and robbed, it was a chance at revenge.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Oh I just got through the part where they lose/reclaim Deep Space Nine and I hate her even more. Sisko tells her to toe the line, keep Bajor out of the fighting, and what does she do? Put together a rebellion.

I don't think terrorism against civilians is ever acceptable.

Okay, fair enough, but that only answers one of the questions I asked. There was a follow-up: How do you expect an oppressed people to fight a militarily superior invader without violating your personal morals? What ought the Bajorans to have done instead?

I don't know. To be perfectly honest, if survival of my race requires that, I feel the price is too high. Ya know, it's the John Cena thing, you can go that route to win but then what have you really won?

Miles O'Brian said something really profound in TNG about the cardassian's ya know, "I don't hate your people, I hate what your people made me become."

Basically I'm saying, there isn't a way. And I think if they're going to do that, they have to take on the burden that they've done horrible things and not just dismiss it by saying it was for "survival".

 

[JimB]

I don't think terrorism against civilians is ever acceptable.

Okay, fair enough, but that only answers one of the questions I asked. There was a follow-up: How do you expect an oppressed people to fight a militarily superior invader without violating your personal morals? What ought the Bajorans to have done instead?

I don't know. To be perfectly honest, if survival of my race requires that, I feel the price is too high. Ya know, it's the John Cena thing, you can go that route to win but then what have you really won?

The right to continue breathing, which I am told some people hold in a certain regard.

Basically I'm saying, there isn't a way. And I think if they're going to do that, they have to take on the burden that they've done horrible things and not just dismiss it by saying it was for "survival."

It was for survival, and survival is amoral. Survival feeds on the deaths of those weaker than oneself, and it is neither good nor evil but just the nature of life. Asking someone to feel guilty about taking the only option available that was not self-destruction seems very unfair to me.