star wars episode II an unanswered question

[Woodsey]

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

Maybe. But once you know they are all clones of one guy. Even in the originals, its hard to see the stormtroopers the same way. It just makes them nobodies. In the originals i saw them as normal people....not clones.

I think there's something somewhere which says that not all of the Stormtroopers are clones by the original trilogy. You see the guys in the AT-ATs and stuff who aren't clones.

I agree, in the originals you had normal humans in charge in all the trilogy. In the at-ats and in command in the death star. Thats what makes the whole clone thing in the prequels horrible. The storm troopers where guys and thus had impact when they died. They were people that may have had families, it was their job. But now they are clones, who cares about them anymore. They are just worthless cannon fodder.

Yeah, but the Stormtroopers aren't presented in that way at all. That's your own little fiction you're creating. There's an actual hint of poignancy when they turn on the Jedi because they're shown to be friends with them.

 

[putowtin]

Not all Storm Troopers are clones, that also explains the hight difference!

 

[saintdane05]

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

Maybe. But once you know they are all clones of one guy. Even in the originals, its hard to see the stormtroopers the same way. It just makes them nobodies. In the originals i saw them as normal people....not clones.

I think there's something somewhere which says that not all of the Stormtroopers are clones by the original trilogy. You see the guys in the AT-ATs and stuff who aren't clones.

I agree, in the originals you had normal humans in charge in all the trilogy. In the at-ats and in command in the death star. Thats what makes the whole clone thing in the prequels horrible. The storm troopers where guys and thus had impact when they died. They were people that may have had families, it was their job. But now they are clones, who cares about them anymore. They are just worthless cannon fodder.

And they still do.
After the clone wars, the Grand Army of the Republic starte up a recruitment program.
If a man between the ages of 18 and 30 scored in the top fifth percentile, an Imperial recruiting agent would contact him and presumably arrange for the extraction of a DNA sampling for cloning. Men who did not score high enough to qualify as a genetic template were still used as regular soldiers. Also, it was preferable if enlisted troopers met a certain standard in height and weight. For a time, the Stormtrooper Corps remained evenly balanced between clones and recruits, at least until the onset of the Imperial Civil War, which occurred alongside the ongoing Galactic Civil War. Due to the loss of Kamino and its cloning facilities, as well as many other cloning centers throughout the galaxy, clone stormtroopers became a rare commodity that the Empire could no longer afford to sustain. And lets not forget the Clone Commando novels that show that no, they are not cannon fodder, they are a SLAVE ARMY.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

Maybe. But once you know they are all clones of one guy. Even in the originals, its hard to see the stormtroopers the same way. It just makes them nobodies. In the originals i saw them as normal people....not clones.

I think there's something somewhere which says that not all of the Stormtroopers are clones by the original trilogy. You see the guys in the AT-ATs and stuff who aren't clones.

I agree, in the originals you had normal humans in charge in all the trilogy. In the at-ats and in command in the death star. Thats what makes the whole clone thing in the prequels horrible. The storm troopers where guys and thus had impact when they died. They were people that may have had families, it was their job. But now they are clones, who cares about them anymore. They are just worthless cannon fodder.

Yeah, but the Stormtroopers aren't presented in that way at all. That's your own little fiction you're creating. There's an actual hint of poignancy when they turn on the Jedi because they're shown to be friends with them.

I get what you mean. I do. 100% But never in the original trilogy did they call the stormtroopers clones. They had different accents and talked like normal people.So why would you not treat them like normal people in uniform? An this is like 30 years ago. The prequels came far latter and changed things. An made them worthless cannon fodder. I could think, they were clones but still lived a life and can marry and have fun like normal people. In a way gain their own personality through living a life. But no, cos the prequels say they grow up to adult hood quick so never had a life or experienced anything.

Im just saying, for me it spoils things. They turned on the jedi in the prequels. Im talking about growing up with the original trilogies first. An thats what i made my thoughts on. If you watched both trilogies around the same time or you watched the prequels first them what i think doesnt matter.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

Maybe. But once you know they are all clones of one guy. Even in the originals, its hard to see the stormtroopers the same way. It just makes them nobodies. In the originals i saw them as normal people....not clones.

I think there's something somewhere which says that not all of the Stormtroopers are clones by the original trilogy. You see the guys in the AT-ATs and stuff who aren't clones.

Yay. I owe you a beer. I dont follow star wars outside of the movies and games. But you made the trooper in the original trilogy normal for me. Hate the clones, making an enemy worthless fodder is pointless. Its why SW2 sucked, you have pointless robots killing pointless clones. Who cares who dies.

I agree, in the originals you had normal humans in charge in all the trilogy. In the at-ats and in command in the death star. Thats what makes the whole clone thing in the prequels horrible. The storm troopers where guys and thus had impact when they died. They were people that may have had families, it was their job. But now they are clones, who cares about them anymore. They are just worthless cannon fodder.

And they still do.
After the clone wars, the Grand Army of the Republic starte up a recruitment program.
If a man between the ages of 18 and 30 scored in the top fifth percentile, an Imperial recruiting agent would contact him and presumably arrange for the extraction of a DNA sampling for cloning. Men who did not score high enough to qualify as a genetic template were still used as regular soldiers. Also, it was preferable if enlisted troopers met a certain standard in height and weight. For a time, the Stormtrooper Corps remained evenly balanced between clones and recruits, at least until the onset of the Imperial Civil War, which occurred alongside the ongoing Galactic Civil War. Due to the loss of Kamino and its cloning facilities, as well as many other cloning centers throughout the galaxy, clone stormtroopers became a rare commodity that the Empire could no longer afford to sustain. And lets not forget the Clone Commando novels that show that no, they are not cannon fodder, they are a SLAVE ARMY.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

The Stormtroopers were demonstrably badass so long as they weren't expected to fight the main characters. Not how readily the overcome the prepared defenders of the corvette in the opening of Episode IV. Also, my assumption would be that not all Storm Troopers are clones. The Empire has had 18 years to build a more traditional army after all.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

A more pertinent question is why did nobody in the Galactic Senate or the Jedi Council bat an eye when Palpatine showed up with a god damn Clone Army!

An Army that I will remind you, was discovered to be cloned from the man sent to kill the Senator Amidala. An army that was commissioned a decade prior to the actual separatist conflict.

Not to mention being commissioned by a dead Jedi.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Prequel Trilogy Faceless soldiers vs Faceless soldiers.

Go ahead and read the Republic Commando novels. The slave army that the Republic raises is not faceless.

The resoning behind making Clone and Droids for the heroes to combat was so that Lucas could have things the characters kill without unfortunate implications.

The writers later on had to fight tooth and nail to give them personality and make people care about them. I DO care about them but it's because of work done on things like Clone Wars the animated series and Republic trooper. But it doesn't remove the fact that introducing clones and changing so much backstory hurts the Starwars Universe.

<youtube=_uKjvdUtLkI>
The Clone Wars were already there. Heck, there, they set up The Old Republic, and even the Anakin/Vader.

Yes, the clone wars happened. Looking at the movie clip, they never said the storm troopers were clones. Or that the enemy used clone troops. Just that he fought in a clone war with lukes father.

I think a lot of that is because of the EU. The Thrawn trilogy in particular had some lines that did all but flat out state the war was the Republic vs. clones. The exact line was something about how unstable some of the early batches of clones the Republic had "faced" were -- they definitely used the word faced, because Zahn pointed out in the Annotated edition that it was a lucky turn of phrase, since it could just as easily mean they had problems dealing with some failed experiments as it could have meant the clones were the opposing army.

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

You need to watch the original Star Wars again, because SonOfVoorhees is right -- there were several scenes with the storm troopers chattering. The one where Obi Wan distracts two of them while shutting down the reactor in particular came off as two soldiers shooting the shit on what they thought was totally pointless guard duty. They were definitely not the emotionless professionals we saw in the prequels.

[edit]Of course, the only time we really get to see this in the movies with rank and file stormtroopers was the first one. Empire and Jedi showed them as much more robotic. Considering how much better the radio dramas line up with the prequels than the actual movies, it would not surprise me at all if Lucas hadn't had some form of what we eventually got outlined by the time Return of the Jedi came out.[/edit]

Although once again, the EU did a lot more characterization, both of the clones, and of normal human stormtroopers. There's a great scene in one of the X-Wing books where a couple of bored stormtroopers are playing a super complicated version of chess completely in their heads (doing the equivalent of "knight to king 5" and all that, but without a board), because for some reason a couple of geniuses signed up and got stuck on guard duty. Then there's all that characterization of the clones from the prequel era EU. Very little in the actual movies, though.

 

[Woodsey]

Prequel Trilogy Faceless soldiers vs Faceless soldiers.

Go ahead and read the Republic Commando novels. The slave army that the Republic raises is not faceless.

The resoning behind making Clone and Droids for the heroes to combat was so that Lucas could have things the characters kill without unfortunate implications.

The writers later on had to fight tooth and nail to give them personality and make people care about them. I DO care about them but it's because of work done on things like Clone Wars the animated series and Republic trooper. But it doesn't remove the fact that introducing clones and changing so much backstory hurts the Starwars Universe.

<youtube=_uKjvdUtLkI>
The Clone Wars were already there. Heck, there, they set up The Old Republic, and even the Anakin/Vader.

Yes, the clone wars happened. Looking at the movie clip, they never said the storm troopers were clones. Or that the enemy used clone troops. Just that he fought in a clone war with lukes father.

I think a lot of that is because of the EU. The Thrawn trilogy in particular had some lines that did all but flat out state the war was the Republic vs. clones. The exact line was something about how unstable some of the early batches of clones the Republic had "faced" were -- they definitely used the word faced, because Zahn pointed out in the Annotated edition that it was a lucky turn of phrase, since it could just as easily mean they had problems dealing with some failed experiments as it could have meant the clones were the opposing army.

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

You need to watch the original Star Wars again, because SonOfVoorhees is right -- there were several scenes with the storm troopers chattering. The one where Obi Wan distracts two of them while shutting down the reactor in particular came off as two soldiers shooting the shit on what they thought was totally pointless guard duty. They were definitely not the emotionless professionals we saw in the prequels.

Obi-Wan has banter with whoever the Commander is in Episode 3, and they are only in one film. And they're in the middle of a full-on war. And that's in the most pivotal film of the saga.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Prequel Trilogy Faceless soldiers vs Faceless soldiers.

Go ahead and read the Republic Commando novels. The slave army that the Republic raises is not faceless.

The resoning behind making Clone and Droids for the heroes to combat was so that Lucas could have things the characters kill without unfortunate implications.

The writers later on had to fight tooth and nail to give them personality and make people care about them. I DO care about them but it's because of work done on things like Clone Wars the animated series and Republic trooper. But it doesn't remove the fact that introducing clones and changing so much backstory hurts the Starwars Universe.

<youtube=_uKjvdUtLkI>
The Clone Wars were already there. Heck, there, they set up The Old Republic, and even the Anakin/Vader.

Yes, the clone wars happened. Looking at the movie clip, they never said the storm troopers were clones. Or that the enemy used clone troops. Just that he fought in a clone war with lukes father.

I think a lot of that is because of the EU. The Thrawn trilogy in particular had some lines that did all but flat out state the war was the Republic vs. clones. The exact line was something about how unstable some of the early batches of clones the Republic had "faced" were -- they definitely used the word faced, because Zahn pointed out in the Annotated edition that it was a lucky turn of phrase, since it could just as easily mean they had problems dealing with some failed experiments as it could have meant the clones were the opposing army.

Pretty sure the Stormtroopers are meant to be elite in the original film, they're just victim to genre tropes.

The clones were never cool. In the original trilogy they chatted and seemed like men in armour to me. Like the armies we have today. They ruined it in the prequels trilogy where they became "clones" and were treated as throwaway troops. Didnt matter if they lived or died just like the droid army.

In the original trilogy, they were never called clones. I just think they fucked up every thing with the prequels.

Go watch the reviews on www.redlettermedia.com

They have more personality in the time they get in Episode 3 than any of the Stormtroopers.

You need to watch the original Star Wars again, because SonOfVoorhees is right -- there were several scenes with the storm troopers chattering. The one where Obi Wan distracts two of them while shutting down the reactor in particular came off as two soldiers shooting the shit on what they thought was totally pointless guard duty. They were definitely not the emotionless professionals we saw in the prequels.

Obi-Wan has banter with whoever the Commander is in Episode 3, and they are only in one film. And they're in the middle of a full-on war. And that's in the most pivotal film of the saga.

I guess, but it was talking about shared experiences. Compare that to the guys in the scene I mentioned, where it was two stormtroopers, on their own, basically talking about cars. Although according to the EU, it was some sort of horrifying droid or something. Either way, the only place I've seen that kind of characterization with the clones is the Star Wars: The Clone Wars cartoon.

Also, check my edit. A New Hope had chatter, Empire and Jedi didn't. With the way Lucas wrote these things, it wouldn't surprise me if he had had some form of what we eventually got outlined by the time Jedi came out. The radio dramas, which came out after Jedi, tie in so well with the prequels it's not even funny, and they didn't even have to change all that much. Make Obi Wan seem a little shiftier here, have Luke mention that he's at least heard of the Jedi there, and bingo, the whole thing makes more sense.

 

[Childe]

I know a lot of you here are probably uber starwars geeks and all fairness to you the films are pretty damn good but i was watching episode II which was on TV yesterday and i got to thinking.

Why are these clone armies fucking badass but storm troopers are possibly the most terrible goons ever. Surely as episodes 4-6 are set further in the future but why are the armies getting worse. I know the clones are all clones of django fett and one special pure clone was boba fett (hence why they were so good). But it kinda makes sense to stick with these rather than those aweful stormtroopers

Also why didnt someone kill anakin earlier on? In episode 1 he was an irritating little brat but he kinda got away with it because he was only a little kid. But in episode 2 he is unbearably abnoxious and just a general douchebasket

The reason as to why the stormtroopers are a terrible shot is because 4-6 were filmed first and they needed to be a terrible shot. Whereas in 2-3 they needed to be a goodshot. It's one of those weird things that happens when the events that happen first are filmed after the events that happen last. Oh and theirs all this backstory with the clones getting killed off and eventually only some of them are left and when vader remakes the clones they arn't as good as the originals.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Here are the explanations I have heard.

1. "I can't see a thing in this helmet!": The helmet's eye pieces are to small to really see out of. They can see what is in front of them, but it must be straining to the eyes, making it hard to line up those gunsights.

2. The sights on the blasters suck: The blaster's were mass produced and nobody wants to question the wisdom of the Emperor's engineers, but the design had a critical flaw. The sights are bulky, hard to use, are basically as accurate from the shoulder as they are from the hip.

3. Clone troopers are different from Storm troopers: At the time of the original trilogy, only one select Legion was still entirely made up of clones, the 501st (which is both a the largest group of storm trooper cosplayers and the one that marched on the Jedi Temple). The rest are just normal humans who either are conscripts or chose to serve. Without Jango Fett, they were unable to take fresh DNA of the deadliest bounty hunter in the galaxy, so clone quality declined till the Empire went with others. It would be like going from an Army of US Sniper teams to an army of the DPRK reserve forces.

4. They were being ordered to miss: Vadar wanted to find the Rebel base. Obviously, they could not do they if Leia and her rescuers were dead. In the rest of the films, when this order would no longer be in effect, the Storm Troopers were much better shots.

 

[Something Amyss]

About the clones, I recall someone somewhere sometime theorizing the quality of the clones decreased over time.

Clone degradation has been floated in a lot of material, too. I think the SWRPG did it.

That's not exactly canon, but it's also more than just a fan theory at that point.

About Anakin, why would anybody kill him? Would you really expect Obi Wan or Mace or Yoda to kill the kid because he was "irritating" or "abnaxious" (sic)? They were training the dude, he was supposed to bring back peace to the galaxy.

Only one of them believed that, though.

I mean, the only argument I can see for killing him is that he was kind of a murderous, aggressive, hateful little *****. But these idiots couldn't see a Sith under their nose or even apply common sense, so I doubt they noticed his actions....

...Or remembered from the first movie. Because continuity? WTF is that?

 

[Something Amyss]

A more pertinent question is why did nobody in the Galactic Senate or the Jedi Council bat an eye when Palpatine showed up with a god damn Clone Army!

An Army that I will remind you, was discovered to be cloned from the man sent to kill the Senator Amidala. An army that was commissioned a decade prior to the actual separatist conflict.

Not to mention being commissioned by a dead Jedi.

Well, it can all be explained, you see....

*waves hand* You don't need to ask these questions....

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Because stormtroopers were not usually clones. They got replaced with volunteers somewhere down the line.