Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

1) Was that supposed to be Coruscant?
2) I'm more than a bit spiteful of Han's death. The only reason I tolerate it is because I suspect this is Harrison finally getting his revenge on Lucas.
3) Oscar Isaac is amazing and Episode VIII could only benefit from focusing exclusively on his character.
4) That ending... Matrix Reloaded, anybody?
5) C-3PO's random red arm was hilarious. What a half-assed jab at selling new toys.
6) Did anybody get where the bad guys came from, at all? Why are we back to Emperor/Vader/Moff & Death Star? Who are these people? At no point is the Rebellion's victory in Return of the Jedi acknowledged. What happened that everything sucks again?

1) they mentioned multiple time about destroying the republic/senate that was giving the resistance help, hence coruscant (plus the whole planet being a giant city)

2) wasn't this one of ford's conditions on coming back? is so that his character could finally die? I swore that was released already.

6) in episode 6 they basically cut off the top head of the empire, but the galactic empire went far and wide across the galaxy, so I'm assuming snoke came from somewhere on the outter rim but still apart of the empire and just regrouped what was already there.

 

[fluxy100]

I liked the movie but I had a ton of problems with it. I read the Thrawn Trilogy in the weeks leading up to the movie and that was possibly the worst thing to do. All the things the Thrawn trilogy takes into consideration for new bad guys, the force awakens just forgets.

1) If the rebels won and the new republic is a thing, where is the first order getting all these troops from?
2) Where are they getting the resources and money to fund a giant sun eating planet?
3) Where did Snoak come from? Yes Palpatine wholly ignored the Rule of two but that was all EU so it's not canon. Who trained this new sith? (I assume this will be explained in the other movies)
4) Why is a bargain bin Jacen Solo our new bad guy? And really Ben? I presume after Ben Kenobi a character Leia never met and Han knew for like a week.
5) I repeat why is Kylo our bad guy? You know how Darth Vader was essentially the Emperor's attack dog? Kylo is like a jack russell terrier someone put blades on, we got like a full minute of him just angrily waving his sword about when his guys failed.
6) How was Rey, someone who never touched a lightsaber before able to fight a trained dark jedi in one on one combat? And don't say Kylo wasn't trained, he was trained enough to screw over all of Luke's other padawans and presumably Luke.

Who says a Kylo Ren has had extensive light saber training? his technique before the fight is largely brute force. hell his light sabre is massively unrefined. i get the feeling while Snoak gave him some force training he's entirely self taught with a sabre. so the first time he comes up against a force user with a sabre he doesn't do that well even with untrained as she is.

So the fight isn't under-choreographed, it's meant to convey neither of them are trained to use a light sabre.

Okay that explains one of the lightsaber fights, explain how Finn a guy who never even saw a lightsaber before this was able to evenly fight against the weird electric ton fa wielding stormtrooper? Who I assume was well trained in his weapon

 

[JayRPG]

I liked the movie, just liked, I was actually loving it until the last 30 mins or so.

What I'm about to say is pretty bold but the force in this movie is worse than midichlorians

Seriously, for 6 movies we have seen time and time again that hard work, training, and most of all, time, is needed for you to be a successful Jedi/Sith. To be a good lightsaber duelist you need shit loads of training. While midichlorians was silly, all it ever was was a measurement of latent potential - for most people they hated midichlorians because it meant that not just anybody could be a Jedi/Sith, no matter how much they trained/worked for it.

Now in episode 7, Kylo Ren is easily overpowering Rey, and for good reason, Kylo was trained by luke skywalker, the knights of ren, AND what you could only assume is a very powerful Sith in Snoke, he has had years of training and experience. Then Rey, holding a lightsaber for the very first time, closes her eyes and is suddenly the most powerful lightsaber duelist in the galaxy because 'the force did it'.

That is shit... it's terrible. It's worse than midichlorians because at least you needed to train regardless of your midi count, now it doesn't matter how hard you work and how much you train because apparently anybody can just manifest the powers of god at random because 'the force'.

 

[Hoplon]

6) How was Rey, someone who never touched a lightsaber before able to fight a trained dark jedi in one on one combat? And don't say Kylo wasn't trained, he was trained enough to screw over all of Luke's other padawans and presumably Luke.

You know that was him? really? because the film doesn't say so. He was never a Jedi, and he's not a dark Jedi now. he's part of the knights of Ren, dark side cultists, force sensitive yes, but dark Jedi? no. She's been clearly fighting with that staff since she was old enough to wield it, so does know about melee combat but clearly isn't used to the near weightless light sabre.

 

[fluxy100]

6) How was Rey, someone who never touched a lightsaber before able to fight a trained dark jedi in one on one combat? And don't say Kylo wasn't trained, he was trained enough to screw over all of Luke's other padawans and presumably Luke.

You know that was him? really? because the film doesn't say so. He was never a Jedi, and he's not a dark Jedi now. he's part of the knights of Ren, dark side cultists, force sensitive yes, but dark Jedi? no. She's been clearly fighting with that staff since she was old enough to wield it, so does know about melee combat but clearly isn't used to the near weightless light sabre.

You are correct the film doesn't say so but I assumed that he was the apprentice that betrayed Luke and he was the only person with a lightsaber in the one shot we get of the Knights of Ren. And there is a huge difference between using a two handed staff weapon and using a weapon with no heft or weight like the lightsaber.

 

[Hoplon]

You are correct the film doesn't say so but I assumed that he was the apprentice that betrayed Luke and he was the only person with a lightsaber in the one shot we get of the Knights of Ren. And there is a huge difference between using a two handed staff weapon and using a weapon with no heft or weight like the lightsaber.

I agree, it's why that whole fight looks like two people not really trained to use lightsabre's fighting, he's clearly not fought another force sensitive with it, seems like it was a terror weapon rather than a relic of an order he deserted. the rest of the knights not having them is very telling of that.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Kylo Ren I don't think is supposed to be portrayed in the same light as Darth Vadar, he's more like prequel Anakin Skywalker (including all the whininess and temper issues), it's possible he'll become someone more competent like Darth Vadar in the coming episodes, but right now, even the movie emphasized, Darth Vadar he is not.

As someone above already mentioned, Kylo Ren isn't an attack dog, he's an angry Chihuahua with a superiority complex.

Then again, Rey basically said "You'll never be Darth Vadar" and I don't think he will be, it takes a special kind of asshole to stab his father through the gut just for being absent without any other major transgressions of note.

I believe Kylo Ren will either become a villain we love to hate with few redeeming qualities or he's going to learn everything Snoke told him about Vadar is a lie[footnote]Because in the end, Vadar did go back to the light side and here Kylo is worshiping the guy's mask, I don't think he's aware of that little detail.[/footnote] and feel really shitty about stabbing his father and then I don't know where he'd go from there, either further dark or redeem.

Even if he was trained, it didn't do him much good if he's too rockheaded to listen to any of his mentors. He's like a kid who has a sword, he can swing it around without cutting his own leg off, but I doubt he knows how to use it properly.

 

[fluxy100]

You are correct the film doesn't say so but I assumed that he was the apprentice that betrayed Luke and he was the only person with a lightsaber in the one shot we get of the Knights of Ren. And there is a huge difference between using a two handed staff weapon and using a weapon with no heft or weight like the lightsaber.

I agree, it's why that whole fight looks like two people not really trained to use lightsabre's fighting, he's clearly not fought another force sensitive with it, seems like it was a terror weapon rather than a relic of an order he deserted. the rest of the knights not having them is very telling of that.

I can agree to that, I still think the electric Tonfa guy shoulda had Finn on the ground in no time

 

[mad825]

6) Did anybody get where the bad guys came from, at all? Why are we back to Emperor/Vader/Moff & Death Star? Who are these people? At no point is the Rebellion's victory in Return of the Jedi acknowledged. What happened that everything sucks again?

A lot of people share the same view, but in reality, the Rebels never really won. Sure, they killed the emperor, killed Darth Vader, and destroyed the second Death Star, great, cool, good job, rebels. However, the entire Galactic Empire wasn't inside that Death Star when it was destroyed, and so too wasn't the Empire's fleet. All the Rebels did at the end of Return of the Jedi was cut the biggest head off of the multiheaded beast that was the Galactic Empire, and I would put money on there being more than enough generals/soldiers/ships/dark jedi to fill the void that the Emperor and Darth Vader left behind. Hell, that is probably where this Snoak guy came from.

Eh, the biggest problem with your statement is that the Empire is pretty much built upon a military dictatorship and it's held together by fear and corporal punishment. It was Darth Vader who was the one dishing out the punishments, keeping a chain of command and dealing with the day-to-day issues. Darth Vader wasn't so much of a field marshal but a puppet like the generals and like the storm troopers. The Emperor providing tactical advice (using his vast knowledge the force) and it was down to Darth Vader to carry them out. Without that glue and the fact there will be a power vacuum, a internal rebellion will ensue.

Let's not even to mention that it is shown that no all of the generals agree with Darth vader.

Are the prequels cannon? Dark Jedi really? The Emperor don't care for minions, he would gladly sacrifice his apprentice for a stronger one like in Episode 3 and RoTJ when The Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader then take his place. As it is said in RoTJ, the Emperor is over confident, he never considered his failure or his defeat for that matter - his hubris was his downfall.

 

[Joccaren]

Alright, out of the way first, movie was great and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Whether it will remain great, or simply TPM again depends on its sequels though, as not enough was explored in the movie, and it has a lot of faults.
Aside from that though, acting was often great. The macro trilogy plot looks like it could be interesting, and it had some great special effects and such.
But it did have its issues, and I've got a lot of thoughts having just watched it so all spoilered to save page size and wall of text =P

First fault:

Spoiler

Pacing. Dear god the pacing was bad. After the Jakku intro... Everything just flew by. No time for anything, we must tick our checkboxes of Star Wars moments. This directly led into the other issues with the movie, and leaves the movie feeling very rushed and is why it risks being just 'meh' if the sequels don't make it up. At this point, if I had to pick Disney cannon or original Cannon with the Extended Universe, I'd pick the EU, because even if I were to pick just one book it'd probably be more original and have more worldbuilding than happens in this movie. Disney can be redeemed with more original thought, and more worldbuilding in future, but for now... Nope. There is very little substance to the movie, and there's only so many goddamn Deathstars I can take before I get sick of the damn things.

Second fault:

Spoiler

Terrible characterisation. We know who Finn is. He is the most characterised character in the whole damn movie. Most of the old cast simply rely on Nostalgia rather than really establishing their characters - which IMO is fine as its a damn sequel to a major 3 part movie blockbuster [Its not really a sequel to the prequels, as the stories are utterly unrelated]. Rey is characterised as a girl abandoned on a planet that has learned to fend for herself and has force skills, but has abandonment issues... And that's largely it. Even then, the exploration of some of her character traits feels quite rushed over at times due to aforementioned pacing issues. Poe has no characterisation. He's a great pilot and a Rebel. That is his entire character. Ben Solo is characterised as Han/Leia's kid who trained as a Jedi and went evil because reasons, and now looks up to Darth Vader. That's it. Snoke had no characterisation and honestly I hated him in the movie, as he was literally just the inclusion of the big bad for the fact of saying "There's a big bad". He had literally no bearing on the plot, and at least some hints at his overall game would have improved him immensely, whereas ATM he's a big pile of nothing. Captain Phasma is basically non-existent. May as well have not starred in the movie. A generic Stormtrooper could have perfectly filled her role. Most characters get the most basic of characterisation, if even that, and any characterisation that is given feels incredibly rushed. Its a shame as exploring the characters more is needed for the series to have any sort of staying power.

Third fault:

Spoiler

Very little worldbuilding. Can anyone tell me what any planet they visited, outside of Jakku, was called? I'm sure they mentioned some of them in the movie at least. I watched it a few hours ago and I can't remember one. Jakku gets explored a bit to begin with, establishing it as Tatooine 2.0. Every planet from then on is just a pitstop so we can show off more Star Wars Rehash, and then skip to next location. There was nothing special about anywhere, and no time was spent exploring it. Potentially similar to IV in some regards here, and its where the sequels will have to make up for it. The problem here vs in IV, however, is that IV had to establish an entire universe. It had to establish the empire, the force, the jedi, the sith, the rebels, Tatooine, Yavin IV, droids, stormtroopers - everything. Honestly I think it did a better job than VII does at this, and VII didn't even have to do it - it could have spent more time on worldbuilding in some areas, like V and VI did with places like Bespin and Hoth and Dagoba and Endor. It feels like all these locations for one were just skipped over.
And that's without going into other skipped over things. What is the political climate? It was immediately apparent in IV - there is a galactic empire, and some rebels. In VII... Its kinda sketchy. There's the First Order, who are terrorists? A new Empire? What? There's Rebels that have literally the entire armed forces of 12 X wing fighters. I'm not even kidding, something like 6 got wiped out and the report was "We've lost half our fleet! We have no reinforcements to send!", without even a Frigate in the battle - what the fuck happened to the huge fleet that took down the Deathstar? There's the New Republic, which existed for the whole 10 seconds as a convenient target for the Starkiller Station superweapon, but otherwise nothing is explained about other than they help the Rebels... But what are the Rebels fighting against? The Empire? Then what is the Republic? Why are they not part of the Republic? What the fuck is actually going on?
Then we've got old lady wise guy, who exists to spout some exposition after we're told she's been there for a thousand years, before everything around her is destroyed and she'll probably never be seen again, nor will that planet, despite the fact they seem to be semi-interesting characters that deserve at least some explanation.
And who is that guy at the start? Some random? Or do we know him? 'cause it ain't ringing any bells.
Overall, there was too much focus on being an Episode IV montage of greatest hits, and not enough effort put into establishing any identity of its own at all. This is ignoring...

Fourth Fault:

Spoiler

Literally just a playback of Episode IV with new names for things. If you've seen episode IV, you've seen episode VII. Just replace some names. This leads to the issue of the goddamn Deathstar. Why do we have a third fucking deathstar. Please. God. No. Get original with your doomsday weapons. Why not something similar to the Star Forge? That would be strong, explain where the First Order - seemingly a terrorist squad at first look - gets all their ships and equipment and troopers, and how they support it. There are a thousand ideas for a superweapon you could go for, but instead we go for "Deathstar, but bigger and eats a star". I cringed when I saw that, and most people I talked to did the same. Hell, even just a mobile goddamn planetary fortress would be great. That giant hole is a hyperdrive, and you can take your planet into combat, covered with defences. That'd be fearsome, and somewhat new. Just a bigger and less interesting Deathstar isn't really that appealing.

These need to be fixed in the sequels, IMO, or the franchise will slowly wither away. Pacing needs to be improved, have an arc over multiple movies rather than trying to cram it into one. It needs to not be a rehash of an old movie. It needs to characterise its characters, and explore their backstories at least a little, and use them as more than just a name. It needs to build up the Star Wars world, and establish a universe we can get lost in, rather than seemingly being lost itself. Without that, future movies will be mediocre at best.

As for other things...

Spoiler

Honestly, I don't think that was Coruscant. To me, the architecture looked more like that on Dromund Kaas. The planet, to my memory, also looked forested from orbit - like Dromund Kaas - instead of an ecumenopolis like Coruscant before it was hit with the weapon. Coruscant has a very distinct planetary look, and I didn't see it. I see how it would make sense for it to be Coruscant, you know, the Republic and everything, but if the First Order is actually more like the Empire and is a galactic power rather than some kind of Terrorist group like the TPM Trade Federation - something the movie to me still hasn't managed to establish - its entirely possible the 'Empire' still controls Coruscant and is the dominant power in the galaxy.
The First Order really suck as antagonists. They are just bad for the sake of being bad, neutral evil, bland, boring villains. The Galactic Empire was Lawful Neutral, and more interesting. It had its power hierarchy, and was almost definitely meant as a parody of fascist Nazi Germany. They didn't just blow up planets 'cause they could [Flimsiest reason I have ever heard "Take out the Republic so that they stop indirectly barely supporting the Rebels. Lets just completely ignore the Rebels themselves, the ones we actually want, we've got planets to blow up"], and they didn't just blow up rather random planets. They blew up Alderaan, Princess Leia's home, because she refused to tell them where the Rebel base was in an interrogation [Or, well, she lied and said Dantooine]. They then targeted Yavin IV, as it was the Rebel Base, and then used the weapon on the Rebel fleet in VI. Vader didn't just get enraged and destroy everything, he punished insubordination and failure but that was it. AFAIK they didn't just utterly slaughter Mos Eisley because the droids were hiding there, they sent in a strike force and a bounty hunter to get what they wanted. They were evil for sure, but they had order, and followed that order and structure. The First, ironically, Order, is instead just 'blow everything up, subtlety is for losers'.
Rey's competence is a bit much. Yeah, I can get knowing how to slice and repair stuff - she's been working on old spaceship wrecks her whole life. I can kind of get using a lightsaber - she does have SOME melee weapon experience, and whilst she presently uses a staff who's to say she didn't use a spear or club of sorts early on instead? With the force, I guess it works, and she is hardly an expert with it. I can get her strength with the force, assuming she's a child of Vader or a part of a larger 'Force Awakening' plot that is more along the lines of an actual conscious living force ala Kreia in KotOR II that guides her. What I can't get is the goddamn spaceship piloting. That's fucking plot wizardry right there. She has piloted a speeder before, and it is hinted that she has never left the planet. She owns no spaceship. How the flying fuck can she fly the Falcon almost as well as Han? The others were kind of pushing things a bit and there needs to be some 'chosen one' explanation for it in some cases, but flying the ship makes fucking no sense. Yeah, she's lived around dead ones her whole life. That's a whole lot different from flying the damn things.
Kylo Ren's use of the force sucked. Even Vader needed to keep his hand using the force to do things like force deflect blaster bolts without his lighstaber, or force choke someone. Ren? Nope, wave hand once, walk out of room, down the corridor, go on a coffee break, have a wank, play some videogames and - oh, I forgot to stop choking/holding/whatever, and then bam the power ends. That's just lame. You should have to actively be using the force to use the damn force, not just have used it once ages ago and for some reason its still fucking going.
Snoke, as I've mentioned, I didn't like. Needed some hint to his larger game. ATM its just "Want to kill Jedi. I am the big bad".
Death of Han went well. Telegraphed as fuck, but I liked the symbolism of the light shining and him starting to be redeemed, but then the light fades, it was already too late, Han had waited too long, and his son was forever lost to the Dark Side. I liked Chewie's fucking rage rampage when it happened. Shoot a goddamn Jedi and hit, blow up a bunch of stuff, kill a ton of Stormtroopers... Was nice. Also liked the touch that Leia is still force sensitive, and could sense Han's death from the Rebel base.
Lightsaber fights were good for now. They pretty well captured non-well trained fighters fighting with the weapons, though I hope in the future films as they master the weapon more they get closer to the more prequel choreographed Lightsaber fights - BRB, getting flameshield.
I do like how they at least give a reason as to why the clones look individual and not Jango Fett in the movie, silencing everyone complaining about it beforehand - they are individuals taken and trained from birth to be supersoldiers, and their Moff takes pride in the fact that they're not clones, and are more effective because of it.
Sorry to say it as well, Ren's Saber Claymore is still just a gimmik IMO. It was used all of once, to little effect, and seemed to be used there simply to say "See, see, it does have a use" than because it was a cool way to use the weapon. It didn't even really do that much damage. Additionally it kinda doesn't make sense how such a lightsaber would project its blade, thinking of the structure of a lightsaber, but on that note, at least its not a fucking lightwhip -.-

Overall though, a very flawed, but very enjoyable movie nonetheless, though its on the sequels to redeem it. Now, before submitting, Imma put this in spoilers because I have typed an ungodly amount on this over the last couple of hours >.>

 

[Casual Shinji]

Now in episode 7, Kylo Ren is easily overpowering Rey, and for good reason, Kylo was trained by luke skywalker, the knights of ren, AND what you could only assume is a very powerful Sith in Snoke, he has had years of training and experience. Then Rey, holding a lightsaber for the very first time, closes her eyes and is suddenly the most powerful lightsaber duelist in the galaxy because 'the force did it'.

That is shit... it's terrible. It's worse than midichlorians because at least you needed to train regardless of your midi count, now it doesn't matter how hard you work and how much you train because apparently anybody can just manifest the powers of god at random because 'the force'.

To be fair, we never see Luke train much with the lightsaber either. The only time we do is with that training ball in the first movie. Even when training under Yoda it's all about understanding and wielding the Force, not battle stances and how to block.

And the movie surely doesn't present Rey as the most powerful lightsaber duelist simply for getting a few hits in with Kylo Ren. It's easy to mistake Ren for the new Vader, but he's way more wet behind the ears. He's very unsure of himself and unhinged, and seems to be almost looked upon as a brat by other commanding officers.

Kylo Ren's use of the force sucked. Even Vader needed to keep his hand using the force to do things like force deflect blaster bolts without his lighstaber, or force choke someone. Ren? Nope, wave hand once, walk out of room, down the corridor, go on a coffee break, have a wank, play some videogames and - oh, I forgot to stop choking/holding/whatever, and then bam the power ends. That's just lame. You should have to actively be using the force to use the damn force, not just have used it once ages ago and for some reason its still fucking going.

I actually really liked that. It more than ever gave the impression that the Force is more than just hand gestures.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Ya know what's been nagging at me is the relationship between The Republic, The First Order and, The Resistance. It doesn't seem like The First Order is directly at war with The Republic until they use the power of...their planet to destroy...Coruscant? I feel like I missed a lot of details when it comes to where people are and who these people are.

I'm curious to see what happens with Rey and Finn when it comes to Force training. Kylo Ren should have been able to obliterate both of them considering his training with Luke Skywalker and why he didn't outright decapitate Finn is a bit baffling. I can see Kylo Ren sparing and testing Rey if they had some hitherto unmentioned relationship. It was odd how it was always pointed out that BB-8 was with 'a girl', it was as though the First Order troops and generals were hinting at something. If there is a relationship between Ren and Rey (brother/sister maybe?) it would make sense that he would rather convert her than kill her. It's more or less what Vader did with Luke...kinda.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I don't understand why Kylo Ren is damned useless. He seems like a pretty powerful force user (he can stop blaster fire?) but he's useless with a lightsaber. Also, is Finn force sensitive? As far as we've ever been told, anyone non-force sensitive will end up short of a limb if they try and use one. I don't really like the idea of him not being one and using it, takes away some of the novelty.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Coruscant wasn't destroyed, it was Hosnian Prime.

 

[Fox12]

It was godawful.

I get that I can be pretty spiteful and pessimistic when it comes to hollywood, but, wow, that was bad. As in, it was far worse then the prequels. Abrams succeeded in avoiding the problems of the prequels, but he found whole new ones. I knew this would happen when he got brought on board.

1) Too many coincidences. Ren and soccer-bot end up on a planet with a girl that is presumably Han Solo's daughter? They just happen to find the millennium falcon, of all things, and immediately run into Han and Chewy in space? Ridiculous. The whole film is just one coincidence after another.

2) Nothing makes sense. Why didn't the Republic attack the planet sized death station that the Empire was building? If the Rebels knew about the death star, why didn't an organized military know about a new space station? Why did the Empire leave a giant weak spot on their space station? Again? When two of their stations had already been destroyed? Why did Luke leave into exile, when he probably could have fixed everything on his own? Why did some random old lady have Luke's blue lightsaber, when it was lost at Bespin, and the only ones who knew or cared were Luke and Vader? Why do the characters act like Luke, and the Jedi, are some ancient myth? He saved the universe a few decades ago, not ten thousand years in the past. Most of the people who saw him are still alive. The Jedi had an entire order just a few years ago. There are historical records. The Vietnam War is further away from us then the rebellion is from these people. Why would people think Luke was a myth?

3) They just rehash old plot points. There's a new tattooine, a new emperor, a new vader, a new Death Star, a new Cantina, and now we're going to discover that the female lead is related to the villain. Only it's totally different this time, because he's her brother. Genius, Abrams! You're truly a creative genius.

4) The writing is some of the worst I've ever seen, in any film, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that. Michael Bay is a much better screen writer. There are plot contrivances, coincidences, bad characters, poor dialogue... it's just a mess of bad ideas and fanservice. I'll give you one example that sums up J.J. Abrams view of this whole movie. The rebels are looking at a hollogram of the new death star.

Character one: "So, it's like another Death Star?"
Character two: "No... it's bigger!

Who gives a fuck how big it is? It still blows up a planet. Does it just blow them up more? I guess it can blow up several planets that are literally right next to one another, but I assume the original Death Star could probably do that too. We still see them blow up some planets we don't care about, and then we see the rebel X-wings blow up the weak spot on the Death Star after a bad trench run sequence.

This film was a real disaster.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Who says a Kylo Ren has had extensive light saber training? his technique before the fight is largely brute force. hell his light sabre is massively unrefined. i get the feeling while Snoak gave him some force training he's entirely self taught with a sabre. so the first time he comes up against a force user with a sabre he doesn't do that well even with untrained as she is.

So the fight isn't under-choreographed, it's meant to convey neither of them are trained to use a light sabre.

Okay that explains one of the lightsaber fights, explain how Finn a guy who never even saw a lightsaber before this was able to evenly fight against the weird electric ton fa wielding stormtrooper? Who I assume was well trained in his weapon

Well... he didn't. Finn struggles to compete against a guy with an electric club, then gets slammed in the gut and is about to be executed when Han and Chewie save him. In his fight against Ren, he last about a minute and gets one glancing hit in against a man who's been shot in the gut by a weapon that was shown throughout the entire movie to be the equivalent of a .50 BMG sniper rifle firing those nifty explosive bullets from New Vegas.

1) Too many coincidences. Ren and soccer-bot end up on a planet with a girl that is presumably Han Solo's daughter?

Where did you get that she's Han's daughter? Ren is the Solo familys kid, and they get pretty broke up about him. I'd think someone would have mentioned if they'd had a second kid and misplaced her. As for the coincidences... that's the consequence of having a galaxy spanning universe that revolvers around exactly one family. That's what Star Wars is. /handwavetheforce

I just got back from watching the movie, and I liked it. It had its flaws, but so did the original trilogy.

The Good

1. Finn had me going for a minute. I didn't like Stormtrooper Finn - He was so completely un-Stormtrooper like that it begged belief that he hadn't been drummed out during training. But as soon as the helmet came off, I loved him. Extremely likable, great chemistry with everyone he meets, and he really carried through when pushed - The actor was good at showing how afraid Finn was, even when he was manning up and fighting out of his league. Just really likable.
2. BB-8. This little guy walked a tight line - Funny, cute, and fun to watch, while not being so prominent that your eyes start to role like his adorable little body (I'm looking at you, Prequels/Clone Wars R2-D2).
3. R2-D2 and C3P-O are almost completely absent from the movie. They even go so far as to make it a joke - When C3P-O does show up, everyone glares at him until he quietly goes away to rust as a back drop piece.
4. Han Solo's death is telegraphed quite vigorously, but it's still handled extremely well, as is Chewbacca's literal roaring rampage.
5. The fights feel really good. Everything from blasters to lightsabers to star fighters feels heavy, and Stormtroopers actually feel like a threat, rather then cartoon characters just there to eat shit, fuck up and die.
6. I thought they did a pretty good job borrowing some of the better ideas of the EU and incorporating them in the movie, either as nods or actual parts of the movie.

The Bad

1. Rey isn't bad, and the actress does a pretty good job, but I never felt really impressed by the character. I don't know if there was a problem with the character, or if Finn was just so fantastic he completely steamrolled her in the character department.
2. More Leia and Luke would have been nice, but truth be told, I'm not sure where they would have fit. Luke was obviously saved for Episode 8, and maybe Leia was too.
3. I wasn't impressed with the Sun Crusher 2.0. Better then the actual Sun Crusher by miles, but it just felt... I don't know. Silly? Despite its power, it just seemed underwhelming.
4. Pacing. The pacing was terrible. So many starts and stops, and the whole 'Trip to Luke' was just a weighted anchor, ruining the ending. I think they would have been better served by either...
a) Cutting away from everyone returning to Yavin to a meditating Luke, who opens his eyes and frowns as he feels that people are coming to find him. Cut to credits.
b) Cutting away from everyone returning to Yavin to Luke, standing like they found him in the ending, gazing out over the sea, seeing the Falcon descending towards the planet. Cut to credits.
5. Phasma. Come the fuck on. You give me a chrome bedecked lady Stormtrooper, who's supposedly the ultimate badass, and all you do with her is throw her in a trash compactor? I'm sure she'll get more screen time in the upcoming movies, but please, give me a taste, JJ.

There's other little good and bad things, but I feel like I'd be nitpicking with those.

Also, as a side note, I'd like to say this - The absolute worst part of the movie was the people I was in the theater with. As soon as the credits started rolling, all I could hear was bitching about 'Its just A New Awakening redux.' And yes, they called it 'A New Awakening.' At least two groups of people, independently, were criticizing the movie for rehashing the first Star Wars, which they couldn't even name. I can completely understand not liking the movie - I loved it, but I can see why others would dislike it. But Christ, at least get your criticisms in order.

Also, I stayed in the lobby next to the line for the next showing out of curiosity. Not a single person shouted spoilers at the waiting fans. It saddens me deeply that this surprised me. It speaks of a level of pessimism I didn't think I possessed.

Oh, one more thing - I stayed through the credits to see if there was a post credit stinger out of pure instinct. Fuck you, Marvel, you've trained me like a dog.

 

[Zontar]

1. Rey isn't bad, and the actress does a pretty good job, but I never felt really impressed by the character. I don't know if there was a problem with the character, or if Finn was just so fantastic he completely steamrolled her in the character department.

I think the biggest issue was that she was made too perfect and too competent. After watching it a second time (watched it alone yesterday, with a few friends today. Hey, 8$ Imax is 8$ Imax) I honestly felt that had she been removed from the story it actually wouldn't adversely effect the quality at all, and I hate to say it but a Fin/Poe dual-protagonist movie would have been much more interesting in my opinion since, even though Poe is a clear Han Solo clone he was just so fun to watch bouncing off Fin.

That being said, I think what would have made things better would be having Rey make more mistakes like with the alien creatures on the cargo ship where she THINKS she knows everything, but that leads to something not going right. She also should not have known how to use the force at all, because it made her unbelievable. Luke after 3 years of training on his own without a master could barely make a lightsaber come to him from a few meters away, she could not possibly have the mind trick and telekinesis after only a day. The biggest grip I had with her, though, was her fight with Ben. It was the exact opposite of what it should have been. It should have been Ben initially having trouble getting the upper hand as he tried to convince her to come with him to meet his master, and when he realizes she wouldn't do so he then instantly starts to win since he isn't holding back, and the planet deteriorating should have had her be the one saved from death at the end.

Ben though was handled well for what he is in the story, but I think he should not have taken off his helmet until his confrontation with Han.

 

[Fox12]

Where did you get that she's Han's daughter? Ren is the Solo familys kid, and they get pretty broke up about him. I'd think someone would have mentioned if they'd had a second kid and misplaced her. As for the coincidences... that's the consequence of having a galaxy spanning universe that revolvers around exactly one family. That's what Star Wars is. /handwavetheforce

I just got back from watching the movie, and I liked it. It had its flaws, but so did the original trilogy.

The Good

1. Finn had me going for a minute. I didn't like Stormtrooper Finn - He was so completely un-Stormtrooper like that it begged belief that he hadn't been drummed out during training. But as soon as the helmet came off, I loved him. Extremely likable, great chemistry with everyone he meets, and he really carried through when pushed - The actor was good at showing how afraid Finn was, even when he was manning up and fighting out of his league. Just really likable.
2. BB-8. This little guy walked a tight line - Funny, cute, and fun to watch, while not being so prominent that your eyes start to role like his adorable little body (I'm looking at you, Prequels/Clone Wars R2-D2).
3. R2-D2 and C3P-O are almost completely absent from the movie. They even go so far as to make it a joke - When C3P-O does show up, everyone glares at him until he quietly goes away to rust as a back drop piece.
4. Han Solo's death is telegraphed quite vigorously, but it's still handled extremely well, as is Chewbacca's literal roaring rampage.
5. The fights feel really good. Everything from blasters to lightsabers to star fighters feels heavy, and Stormtroopers actually feel like a threat, rather then cartoon characters just there to eat shit, fuck up and die.
6. I thought they did a pretty good job borrowing some of the better ideas of the EU and incorporating them in the movie, either as nods or actual parts of the movie.

The Bad

1. Rey isn't bad, and the actress does a pretty good job, but I never felt really impressed by the character. I don't know if there was a problem with the character, or if Finn was just so fantastic he completely steamrolled her in the character department.
2. More Leia and Luke would have been nice, but truth be told, I'm not sure where they would have fit. Luke was obviously saved for Episode 8, and maybe Leia was too.
3. I wasn't impressed with the Sun Crusher 2.0. Better then the actual Sun Crusher by miles, but it just felt... I don't know. Silly? Despite its power, it just seemed underwhelming.
4. Pacing. The pacing was terrible. So many starts and stops, and the whole 'Trip to Luke' was just a weighted anchor, ruining the ending. I think they would have been better served by either...
a) Cutting away from everyone returning to Yavin to a meditating Luke, who opens his eyes and frowns as he feels that people are coming to find him. Cut to credits.
b) Cutting away from everyone returning to Yavin to Luke, standing like they found him in the ending, gazing out over the sea, seeing the Falcon descending towards the planet. Cut to credits.
5. Phasma. Come the fuck on. You give me a chrome bedecked lady Stormtrooper, who's supposedly the ultimate badass, and all you do with her is throw her in a trash compactor? I'm sure she'll get more screen time in the upcoming movies, but please, give me a taste, JJ.

There's other little good and bad things, but I feel like I'd be nitpicking with those.

Also, as a side note, I'd like to say this - The absolute worst part of the movie was the people I was in the theater with. As soon as the credits started rolling, all I could hear was bitching about 'Its just A New Awakening redux.' And yes, they called it 'A New Awakening.' At least two groups of people, independently, were criticizing the movie for rehashing the first Star Wars, which they couldn't even name. I can completely understand not liking the movie - I loved it, but I can see why others would dislike it. But Christ, at least get your criticisms in order.

Also, I stayed in the lobby next to the line for the next showing out of curiosity. Not a single person shouted spoilers at the waiting fans. It saddens me deeply that this surprised me. It speaks of a level of pessimism I didn't think I possessed.

Oh, one more thing - I stayed through the credits to see if there was a post credit stinger out of pure instinct. Fuck you, Marvel, you've trained me like a dog.

Well, I think it's heavily implied that she's his daughter, or Luke's daughter. Besides the obvious father/daughter thing with Han, and the fact that Abrams is making a carbon copy of the original films, there are strong implications in the movie. When she touches Luke's saber, for instance, every scene was about Luke... Except the one where she's being taken away as a young girl. Which would make sense if Luke or Han sent her away, so that she wouldn't become a sith. Luke then went into exile like obi-wan and yoda, and she was sent to a dessert planet like baby Luke and Leigh's. Then she can be trained like Luke was in the second movie. It's an incredibly stupid plot twist, but it would be consistent with what Abrams has done this far. That said, it's speculation, since we don't know the details of her life and background.

As for contrivance and coincidence, there is no excuse. They could find a reason to bring these characters together. At the beginning of the movie, they say Leia sent her best pilot to find the droid. Replace that nameless pilot with Han. He gets captured, then escapes with the main character. Give the girl a motivation for finding the droid as well. Change her backstory if you must. Since they're all after the same thing, it's inevitable that they would meet one another. That's a simple and practical way to bring the cast together without coincidence. It's harder to write a tight plot like that, but any professional should be able to do it. It's lazy for someone in Abrams position to wave his hand and say the force did it. That's what he did with Lost, and it showed in the final product. He's a very poor, very lazy, very nostalgia driven writer.

Edit: I'll be nice, though. The mix of practical and computer effects was quite nice. The sets looked both real and alien, which was a nice change. The actors were quite good, even if their characters were paper thin.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

1. Rey isn't bad, and the actress does a pretty good job, but I never felt really impressed by the character. I don't know if there was a problem with the character, or if Finn was just so fantastic he completely steamrolled her in the character department.

I think the biggest issue was that she was made too perfect and too competent. After watching it a second time (watched it alone yesterday, with a few friends today. Hey, 8$ Imax is 8$ Imax) I honestly felt that had she been removed from the story it actually wouldn't adversely effect the quality at all, and I hate to say it but a Fin/Poe dual-protagonist movie would have been much more interesting in my opinion since, even though Poe is a clear Han Solo clone he was just so fun to watch bouncing off Fin.

That being said, I think what would have made things better would be having Rey make more mistakes like with the alien creatures on the cargo ship where she THINKS she knows everything, but that leads to something not going right. She also should not have known how to use the force at all, because it made her unbelievable. Luke after 3 years of training on his own without a master could barely make a lightsaber come to him from a few meters away, she could not possibly have the mind trick and telekinesis after only a day. The biggest grip I had with her, though, was her fight with Ben. It was the exact opposite of what it should have been. It should have been Ben initially having trouble getting the upper hand as he tried to convince her to come with him to meet his master, and when he realizes she wouldn't do so he then instantly starts to win since he isn't holding back, and the planet deteriorating should have had her be the one saved from death at the end.

Ben though was handled well for what he is in the story, but I think he should not have taken off his helmet until his confrontation with Han.

Her knowing the force was really weird. It makes sense that she can fight back against Kylo Ren both physically and Force-wise, but jumping to mind control was bizarre.

And yes... Ren/Ben should have kept the helmet on for far longer, especially since the actor they got for him is kind of baby faced. Definitely not menacing.

Spoiler

Where did you get that she's Han's daughter? Ren is the Solo familys kid, and they get pretty broke up about him. I'd think someone would have mentioned if they'd had a second kid and misplaced her. As for the coincidences... that's the consequence of having a galaxy spanning universe that revolvers around exactly one family. That's what Star Wars is. /handwavetheforce

Well, I think it's heavily implied that she's his daughter, or Luke's daughter. Besides the obvious father/daughter thing with Han, and the fact that Abrams is making a carbon copy of the original films, there are strong implications in the movie. When she touches Luke's saber, for instance, every scene was about Luke... Except the one where she's being taken away as a young girl. Which would make sense if Luke or Han sent her away, so that she wouldn't become a sith. Luke then went into exile like obi-wan and yoda, and she was sent to a dessert planet like baby Luke and Leigh's. Then she can be trained like Luke was in the second movie. It's an incredibly stupid plot twist, but it would be consistent with what Abrams has done this far. That said, it's speculation, since we don't know the details of her life and background.

As for contrivance and coincidence, there is no excuse. They could find a reason to bring these characters together. At the beginning of the movie, they say Leia sent her best pilot to find the droid. Replace that nameless pilot with Han. He gets captured, then escapes with the main character. Give the girl a motivation for finding the droid as well. Change her backstory if you must. Since they're all after the same thing, it's inevitable that they would meet one another. That's a simple and practical way to bring the cast together without coincidence. It's harder to write a tight plot like that, but any professional should be able to do it. It's lazy for someone in Abrams position to save his hand and say the force did it. That's what he did with Lost, and it showed in the final product. He's a very poor, very lazy, very nostalgia driven writer.

Oh, she's almost certainly Luke's daughter, though it will take some interesting explanations for that one. But I didn't see any hints that she was a Solo. Han does take a shine to her pretty fast, but that seems to be because she likes the Falcon. Or maybe he does realize she's Luke's kid, but thinks better of saying anything about it.

As for coincidence... this is Star Wars, and coincidence is pretty well established as the the most powerful tool of the force. I do, however, see how it would be aggravating, though it doesn't bother me much.

 

[Fox12]

snip

I think my main issue is that I wish they'd done something a little different. I get that they want to play it safe after the prequels, but it just felt a little too... fanfictiony for me. Like Abrams grabbed a binder full of Star Wars drawings he made when he was fourteen, and made it into a movie.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and if people enjoyed it then I'm glad. I'm not saying people shouldn't have fun with the movies. The original films were supposed to be fun adventure serials, after all, based on Flash Gordon. It makes sense for the new movies to be fun adventure movies. I was just disappointed by the execution. I hope the other films are a little more ambitious, with J.J. hopefully being less involved. Now that the "safe" one is out of the way, maybe we can get some more interesting movies.