Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[Glongpre]

So being a Jedi is about using the force and their ideology.

Ok I feel like this is a communication issue. From what I am reading from your previous posts, it sounds like if anyone can use the force, they are a Jedi. Like, the title of any force user is a Jedi.

Quote - "I was arguing that being a Jedi is about using the Force"
- "Every Jedi has the Force. Therefore since this Sith has the Force, it's a Jedi" which is basically true since Sith are just a different flavour of Jedi"

So if I am correct in my understanding, if you instantly gained force powers, that would instantly make you a Jedi?

 

[Drathnoxis]

So being a Jedi is about using the force and their ideology.

Ok I feel like this is a communication issue. From what I am reading from your previous posts, it sounds like if anyone can use the force, they are a Jedi. Like, the title of any force user is a Jedi.

Quote - "I was arguing that being a Jedi is about using the Force"
- "Every Jedi has the Force. Therefore since this Sith has the Force, it's a Jedi" which is basically true since Sith are just a different flavour of Jedi"

So if I am correct in my understanding, if you instantly gained force powers, that would instantly make you a Jedi?

That's not really what I meant, but I probably wasn't clear enough there. Hmm, how to best explain that sentence.

Okay, so sometimes you can use a subclass of words to describe it's parent class. Like a shoe is a kind of footwear, and people wouldn't generally say that sandals and boots are shoes, but if I say to a room of people "take off your shoes" I really mean to take off whatever footwear they have on. I wouldn't have meant that if they are wearing sandals or boots or slippers to leave those on.
So when I said Sith are a flavour of Jedi; since Jedi came first and are the most widely known type of force user I was using them to refer to the force using aspect(as well as other commonalities like light sabers, robes, and what not), while "flavour" to refer to their ideology/alignment. I don't think that's too much of a stretch, as I was referring specifically to something they had in common(the force), and they are very similar on all levels except their alignment.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have phrased it like that, but it made sense at the time.
Maybe I should have said "Sith are just Jedi with a different ideology/alignment" or something. I dunno.

And to be clear, this part of the quote:"Every Jedi has the Force. Therefore since this Sith has the Force, it's a Jedi" was me trying to fill the cat part of Dopo's analogy, since he never specified what exactly it was meant to be, although there are both hairless cats and hairless dogs but no forceless Jedi.

 

[Glongpre]

and they are very similar on all levels except their alignment.

That's the thing. If someone has the force, that doesn't mean they are Jedi.

You can have force users who are not Jedi or Sith.

The alignment is where the naming is important, because the name implies their ideology.

(also, it is true you cannot be a Jedi without the force, it is just implied because they are by definition a force user, because they are a group of force users who follow a particular ideology of how to use the force. Hence why those who follow the one code are called Jedi, and those who follow the opposite code are called Sith.)

 

[Drathnoxis]

and they are very similar on all levels except their alignment.

That's the thing. If someone has the force, that doesn't mean they are Jedi.

You can have force users who are not Jedi or Sith.

The alignment is where the naming is important, because the name implies their ideology.

I never said that there weren't neutral force users, my above statement was limited to Sith and Jedi because, as I explained, I was filling in an analogy. Also, I haven't made a comment as to whether or not all force users are similar, just Jedi and Sith, and don't intend to because I don't think it's relevant to my point. Being a Jedi is about using the force(casting space spells). Being a Sith is about using the force. Being a neutral/unaligned force user is about using the force. Judging by the rest of your post, I don't think you disagree.

I've merely been arguing that the statement that the point was invalid due to the fact that being a Jedi was not about casting space spells was itself invalid. Whether the original point is invalid for a different reason is still up for debate, I suppose, but I don't really remember what it was. I made it in a different thread and Dopo had quoted me, linking his quote here. I assumed that meant he wanted the argument carried out here, due to the fact that he went to the trouble of quoting himself rather than just typing it out again. If you wanted to argue against my original point that Dopo had quoted, I would have to find it.
Actually, hold on. Here it is. I would prefer to continue the argument here as opposed to that thread though, as I don't think everything I said in that thread is supportable and I don't really want it bumped again.

 

[Glongpre]

I've merely been arguing that the statement that the point was invalid due to the fact that being a Jedi was not about casting space spells was itself invalid.

Yea but that's the thing here. I actually feel silly now because it is such a small issue!

Being a Jedi or Sith isn't about the force. Them having the force is implied because to be a Jedi or Sith, you must be able to use the force in the first place, or you won't be invited to their Orders.

So therefore, the point that DoPo and I are trying to make was that being a Jedi is not about casting space magic, because what makes a Jedi is how they believe the force should be used. You can be a "light side" force user, but not be a Jedi, because to be a Jedi, you must be apart of the Jedi Order.

Also, Jedi don't need teachers anymore according to the movie, since Rey doesn't have any problems teaching herself advanced Jedi abilities on the fly.

You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

What I got from this was that you were implying Rey is a Jedi because she can use the force and thus doesn't need a Jedi teacher. When in fact she is not yet a Jedi, and that she would still need a teacher because being a Jedi is about following the Order's beliefs on how the force should be used.

This is why people have been arguing that Kylo is not a Sith, even though he uses dark side powers and uses his anger as an advantage. (However he could be a true Sith if Snoke is a Sith, and Kylo has been training under his guidance)

 

[Drathnoxis]

I've merely been arguing that the statement that the point was invalid due to the fact that being a Jedi was not about casting space spells was itself invalid.

Yea but that's the thing here. I actually feel silly now because it is such a small issue!

Being a Jedi or Sith isn't about the force. Them having the force is implied because to be a Jedi or Sith, you must be able to use the force in the first place, or you won't be invited to their Orders.

So therefore, the point that DoPo and I are trying to make was that being a Jedi is not about casting space magic, because what makes a Jedi is how they believe the force should be used. You can be a "light side" force user, but not be a Jedi, because to be a Jedi, you must be apart of the Jedi Order.

Well, I guess we aren't ever going to see eye to eye on this point. I just feel that when something is so integral to a group that you can't be a part of the group without it, and most of their teachings are about using it properly, that group is 'about' that thing even if they are also 'about' something else too. But, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it there.

Also, Jedi don't need teachers anymore according to the movie, since Rey doesn't have any problems teaching herself advanced Jedi abilities on the fly.

You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

What I got from this was that you were implying Rey is a Jedi because she can use the force and thus doesn't need a Jedi teacher. When in fact she is not yet a Jedi, and that she would still need a teacher because being a Jedi is about following the Order's beliefs on how the force should be used.

This is why people have been arguing that Kylo is not a Sith, even though he uses dark side powers and uses his anger as an advantage. (However he could be a true Sith if Snoke is a Sith, and Kylo has been training under his guidance)

Okay, well I'll concede your point that to be a "Jedi" specifically she might need a Jedi teacher. However, that brings up the point of why anybody really cares that much about becoming a Jedi specifically if it's only a moral code and a bunch of rules they have to follow. The point I was trying to make in that thread was that there didn't seem to be much point in looking for Luke. I have already admitted that there are some valid reasons to look for him, so we don't need to address the point in general, but only as it refers to the above statement.
Anyway, so the Resistance is looking for Luke so that he can train people to become Jedi. But since it seems in the movie that Jedi only need training on the moral aspects and for membership in the Jedi order and not for force powers, the question becomes: why would the Resistance care about having Jedi specifically? Surely all that matters to the majority of the Resistance is that they have a super soldier to rival the First Order's super soldier. We could even make the stipulation that they want someone with strong moral values. Why do they need a Jedi? They could just have any wise person teach their force users not to do bad and it would probably be just as effective.

 

[cathou]

Anyway, so the Resistance is looking for Luke so that he can train people to become Jedi. But since it seems in the movie that Jedi only need training on the moral aspects and for membership in the Jedi order and not for force powers, the question becomes: why would the Resistance care about having Jedi specifically?

it's not stated anywhere in the movie why they are looking for Luke. I dont think they want him to train more Jedi, because they dont have potential Jedi in their hands. from the conversation between Rey and Han, the force is apparetly only a myth for most people, and beside Snoke and Kylo Ren nobody seems to use the force in the galaxy before Rey showed up, but they went looking for Luke before knowing her.

I think they are looking for Luke because he's the most powerfull force user they know, and they need his power to battle Snoke and Kylo Ren. but him personally, not potential future jedis.

 

[Glongpre]

They probably want Jedi because they are the nice guys. Star Wars has always been rather black and white.

I guess they are looking for Luke because Leia wants to see him and needs his help to beat the remaining fragments of the Empire. She is the commander of the Rebels after all, might as well use as many advantages as you can get. Plus she knows Kylo wants to kill him, so she would rather find him first so that there isn't a possibility of him having to fight alone.

I don't know, I hope the next movie tackles some of these missing story bits. It should be a long movie then, which is fine with me. No need to do what Abrams did and keep it at the originals running length.

EDIT:

I also want to add that what was really cool about TFA, was that they were able to get the original actors to come back and play Leia, Luke, and Han. That adds so much to the continuity. It reminds me of what they did with the Boyhood movie.

It is really hard to get into a sequel and care for the same character if they change the actors between movies. When Katie Holmes was replaced by Mag Gyllenhal in the Batman trilogy, it was jarring.

It will be so cool to watch the whole saga of Star Wars movies in the future, and see how the characters have aged. Or at least episodes 4-9.

 

[UfokinDingus]

you know, it just surprised me when I saw their big death star weapon in the movie... because we all know how well BIG GIANT BALLS OF DEATH fair in the star wars universe, I wonder who in the first order looked at the two previous death stars and went " you know what, that was a brilliant idea, but you know what would make it even MORE AWESOME?... lets make it twice as big with twice as big of a weak zone to blow up"

 

[Drathnoxis]

it's not stated anywhere in the movie why they are looking for Luke.

Thank you, that was my whole point.

They probably want Jedi because they are the nice guys. Star Wars has always been rather black and white.

I guess they are looking for Luke because Leia wants to see him and needs his help to beat the remaining fragments of the Empire. She is the commander of the Rebels after all, might as well use as many advantages as you can get. Plus she knows Kylo wants to kill him, so she would rather find him first so that there isn't a possibility of him having to fight alone.

I don't know, I hope the next movie tackles some of these missing story bits. It should be a long movie then, which is fine with me. No need to do what Abrams did and keep it at the originals running length.

Could be. But, yeah, it would have been nice if this movie had addressed such things as why the protagonists are pursuing the main plot. Just one line, "we're looking for Luke because _________."

 

[Drathnoxis]

Could be. But, yeah, it would have been nice if this movie had addressed such things as why the protagonists are pursuing the main plot. Just one line, "we're looking for Luke because _________."

Why, though? I mean, the reason's rather obvious in that Luke is a hero of the war who blew up the first Death Star and defeated Darth Vader who went on to become a Jedi Master and found the new Order of them. Who wouldn't be looking for such a person to aid in their struggling resistance movement against the Poser Empire? In fact, I'd actually fault the movie if they didn't have enough faith in their audience that they felt the need to explicitly state why they want to find this incredibly powerful, Sith-slaying individual

Because there are a number of possible reasons for why anybody is looking for Luke and there are also a number of reasons that looking for Luke could be a waste of time. I'd like to hear the characters explain their motivations themselves rather than having to rely on assumptions. Like what do they think Luke will do for them, why do they think he will help, why is searching for him worth the risk that he will refuse, what if Luke isn't there, etc. There is a lot of personality in why a person thinks they are doing something and I find it hard to connect with the characters without understanding their personal motivations. Also this is the main plot of the movie, it should be explicit as to why all the struggle is worth it, because if there is enough doubt it makes the characters look like they are idiots for wasting their time. For all we know, old Luke could be as effective as old Obi-Wan at fighting empires (i.e. not terribly effective.)

 

[DoPo]

Okay, well I'll concede your point that to be a "Jedi" specifically she might need a Jedi teacher.

Thank you for conceding to my initial point that you kept derailing. And it took you so long...because?

 

[Drathnoxis]

Okay, well I'll concede your point that to be a "Jedi" specifically she might need a Jedi teacher.

Thank you for conceding to my initial point that you kept derailing. And it took you so long...because?

Probably because you didn't ever take the time to explain yourself, and I was arguing against the point you presented to me, which was that being a Jedi wasn't about space spells. If you had said "being a Jedi is about more than just casting space spells, it's also about a code of ethics and whatnot." I probably wouldn't have disagreed. That and the curt/passive aggressive way you've tended to write your posts doesn't exactly make you the easiest person to agree with.

But I really don't want to get into this again.

 

[DoPo]

Okay, well I'll concede your point that to be a "Jedi" specifically she might need a Jedi teacher.

Thank you for conceding to my initial point that you kept derailing. And it took you so long...because?

Probably because you didn't ever take the time to explain yourself, and I was arguing against the point you presented to me, which was that being a Jedi wasn't about space spells.

You mean, how I on multiple occasions did explain it. And the point I presented was the one you just conceded in the previous post. Yes, the Jedi are not solely about space spells. Space spells make you a Force user. You agreed this was the case.

If you had said "being a Jedi is about more than just casting space spells, it's also about a code of ethics and whatnot."

Which I did

Secondarily, why did the Jedi Order even exist? Apparently if the Force awakens in you, you instantly gain enough know-how to beat down a Sith (who already had some degree of training). So uh... what was the purpose of having a whole Order dedicated to training and whatnot? Bragging rights? Tax evasion?

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

A person who uses the Force is a Force user. Jedi are some of the Force users, namely, the ones who are part of the Jedi order and follow their teachings.

there is no Jedi order and Luke is still a Jedi.

It's because he follows the teachings of the Jedi order. You've yet to prove that any Force user is a Jedi.

Sure, if you decide to cherry pick an unrelated statement it would look like you didn't claim that in the first place. Yet you did. You, and ravenlordhun both made the claim that Rey did not need Jedi training because by manifesting Force powers, she was now a Jedi. When I pointed out that a Jedi is not actually just about Force powers, you got invalid logic on me by claiming that, indeed, any Force user is a Jedi. Because...erm, you said so or something. Care to actually back this up? You or ravenlordhun - neither of you have actually defended that statement.

And what I've been saying all along is that giving somebody space spells does not immediately make them a Jedi.

Like when every time I've addressed you on this point I've pointed out that the sole defining feature of Jedi isn't the Force? OK, let me be explicit: the sole defining feature of the Jedi is not the Force. If somebody has the Force, they aren't automatically a Jedi.

Basically, you literally didn't want to listen to reason. Which sort of ticks me off. You deliberately ignored my then, and now.

Try, you know, actually having basic understanding the topic before engaging in it. For gods' sake, you had no clue what a Jedi was. And yet you are apparently pissed off at the new Star Wars movie because it didn't do Jedi correctly. You pretty much made up a reason to don't like the movie, without that reason actually aligning with reality. Which also ticked me off.

 

[Politrukk]

What did catch me off guard was the fact that Coruscant is gone. I mean it's fucking gone! That trillions of people dead on that planet alone (who knows what the other 4 planets destroyed where. Hope to god Corellia was not one of them). I mean that's they type of thing a movie is meant to have as its climax be the thing to prevent, not the demonstration of just how evil the First Order is. I mean god, I was attached to that planet.

I think this entire superweapon firing was a way to get around the plotholes that had been torn into the franchise due to the prequels setting up multiple high-tech, highly populated worlds that we never saw in the original saga.


The fact that they had to run out a new deathstar and did so many mandatory callbacks to the original trilogy (whilst leaving out anything from the prequels) also didn't sit well with me.

They could have expanded on what happened in Clone Wars and Rebels and drew some inspiration/rectification from that, instead we got a lot of fan service.


Don't get me wrong, the movie was enjoyable as a whole and it does indeed have a setup for the new trilogy but it leaves too many holes and panders too much to the original trilogy to actually give the new characters anything to do or have any breathing room.


Ren VS Solo was rushed.

All we know about Ren is that he's Han and Leia's son and he likes to thrash rooms and people that's all we know there was no further setup or story.

Mentioning a vast story that may have come before is not the same as actually adding/working with it.

 

[Politrukk]

Could be. But, yeah, it would have been nice if this movie had addressed such things as why the protagonists are pursuing the main plot. Just one line, "we're looking for Luke because _________."

Why, though? I mean, the reason's rather obvious in that Luke is a hero of the war who blew up the first Death Star and defeated Darth Vader who went on to become a Jedi Master and found the new Order of them. Who wouldn't be looking for such a person to aid in their struggling resistance movement against the Poser Empire? In fact, I'd actually fault the movie if they didn't have enough faith in their audience that they felt the need to explicitly state why they want to find this incredibly powerful, Sith-slaying individual

No it's not even the movie itself states that in thirty years he's sort of become a myth.

Aside from that the resistance is wasting a god awful lot of resources simply to get back 1 guy.