Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[Zontar]

Snip

So there is in fact an Imperial Remnant separate from the First Order. Are there any details as to how unified this remnant is? Because there's a big difference between the Moffs being united under a single Moff above all or a Grand Admiral, and the Moffs all having their own little fiefdoms that are disunited and would only come together in a conflict involving an extremal power (and it would be cool to see as a result of the actions of the movie a war between the First Order and the Imperial Remnant due to the danger they pose.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

That nitpick aside, what do you think of my post?

I feel you on the "The Force Awakens A Series of Extraordinary Coincidences" issue, although I probably wouldn't have resolved them in the ways you suggest. They most definitely played it safe. Playing it safe was necessary, due to the prequels...that was always a cross this film would have to bear.

You're probably right, but I think the playing it safe route was the only thing that really let the film down for me. If it were the first entry in a completely new franchise, some bits would have blown my dick off, but instead they felt like shinier versions of stuff I've seen before.
Eh, I'm not super sure I would have resolved them that way either. I thought expanding Kylo's obsession with Vader into it's own little cult thing might have been more interesting than 'the Empire again', but there are probably better ways of doing it. Also divorcing the new villains from Vader might be a good idea... Idk

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So there is in fact an Imperial Remnant separate from the First Order. Are there any details as to how unified this remnant is? Because there's a big difference between the Moffs being united under a single Moff above all or a Grand Admiral, and the Moffs all having their own little fiefdoms that are disunited and would only come together in a conflict involving an extremal power (and it would be cool to see as a result of the actions of the movie a war between the First Order and the Imperial Remnant due to the danger they pose.

Unfortunately that's all I've got. That and the odd tidbit about stuff like the Bespin saber.

Like many people, I spent a healthy portion of the film wondering why "the Republic" was so ragged and low on resources. Wish I'd known going it that it was basically Leia's private army.

 

[Zontar]

Like many people, I spent a healthy portion of the film wondering why "the Republic" was so ragged and low on resources. Wish I'd known going it that it was basically Leia's private army.

It is odd that they're just her private army. In the opening crawl it stated that while it was a separate entity it had their support, so you'd think they'd have something like most modern guerilla forces supported by another state where most of their weapons are bought and paid for by the government in question, and that it's the people more then anything else who are from a separate source.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It is odd that they're just her private army. In the opening crawl it stated that while it was a separate entity it had their support, so you'd think they'd have something like most modern guerilla forces supported by another state where most of their weapons are bought and paid for by the government in question, and that it's the people more then anything else who are from a separate source.

They're clearly tolerated by the Republic, but don't seem to enjoy anything like full financial support (or they'd basically be a paramilitary wing of the Republic). Seems like the Republic is very pro-disarmament, but agrees to look the other way for Leia Organa, which is probably one of many acts of hypocrisy that has The First Order feeling uppity. Not that it appears they needed a lot excuses.

 

[Casual Shinji]

But yeah, Hamill post weight loss looks the most...vigorous? Ford's tired face makes contextual sense when you consider his character would be weighed down by experience and grief, but I'm not sure anyone wants or needs to see a bunch of senior citizens doing stunts and gallivanting around the galaxy, so it's a good thing Hamill looks equal to the task.

I would've liked it if they had maybe slapped a beard on a Ford, or a moustash, or something. Maybe swoop his hair back. Just make him look different. Now it looks like 30 years have past for the actor, but not so much for the character, if that makes sense.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I would've liked it if they had maybe slapped a beard on a Ford, or a moustash, or something. Maybe swoop his hair back. Just make him look different. Now it looks like 30 years have past for the actor, but not so much for the character, if that makes sense.

Good Christ, can you imagine if they put like...a handlebar mustache on Han Solo?

The die hard fans would burn the theater down.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

I just saw it. I did really like it.

1)The action is back in Star Wars. It's probably the best blockbuster action I've seen in a while, the only non-mature film that gets close is Fury Road.

Gone are the days of fake looking CGI shit thrown all over the place. The space battles are AWESOME, both the blasters and the explosions have an awesome OOMPPHF to them, just great.

Plus the lightsaber fights have some real impact, even if it's basically two amateurs taking swings at each other.
It now actually seems like they're trying to hit each other, instead of waving around glowsticks.

2)Harrison Ford was awesome in this, he nails most of the moments he's in and effortlessly took on the role of Han Solo again imo.

3)I even liked Kylo Ren, though I was frowning hard at his performance at the start of the film. He sort of seems ridiculous at first, trying to show off his power but barely having anything under control at the same time, being ridiculed behind his back and letting his aggression out like an immature child. But then the film makes it exceedingly clear that's exactly the point, which I thought was very well done.

He isn't just flashy powers either but actually uses his force power to mess with people's minds etc.

4)Despite the action being top notch, the absolute best moments for the film were the times when the action stopped and the characters took the time to reflect upon the force, upon their position in the world etc. That's what I wonna see more of in the future. In this film it was a lot of nostalgia that came with the reflection, they'll need to put the focus more on the characters themselves next time.

5) I'm a big Rey fanboy already. Her acting was spot on imo, it didn't bother me one time that she was telling Finn what's for. Absolutely love this new character. I do get the critique that she was "too perfect" however. It's clear that she was meant to be the mature one compared to Finn, with her taking care of herself for that long. Still, I'd like to see her struggle more in the next instalment, while Finn can come into his character.

The problematic parts:

1) Elephant in the room: How the bleeding hell did all of this just happen???!. I can get that the empire wasn't just magically defeated when the Emperor died, but how the hell did this First Order business start. Who are they, what are they about, how did they come to be?
Generally: what the helL?

Now, I can forgive this given that we're looking at the world through the eyes of the principal characters. But the next film had better take a minute or say... 30 to damn well explain it all.

2) Who the fuck is Snoke? Yeah seriously, who the fuck is he? Ridiculous name too. Again: they better well tell us, or better yet: show us, why we should care.

3)The freaking Starkiller base. Just no. Don't do this kind of motherfrakking Dragonball Z kind of power-up race. It only works in DBZ proper. How the fuck did some kind of imperial remnant build this thing when it took the ENTIRE empire to build the first two? It's not impressive, it's stupid as fuck.

I really hope they don't continue this ridiculous one-up kind of shit in the next films. Remember this Disney: Empire strikes back is regarded as the best film of the bunch, it didn't have any kind of Death Stars in it.

4)They did pretty much copy "A new hope". Now this isn't purely negative, because they generally did a good job. However, they can't continue this into the next films and I hope they manage to depart from the old universe while still keeping the essence of Star Wars intact.

I thought it was pretty sweet UNTIL the last 30 minutes, then the thing fell apart. First of all, Ray's mary sue-ness, I fucking knew it will happen, let fanboys write the script and you'll have a person who's holding a lightsaber for the first time beat the bad guy, I could get behind her being tech savvy, which was inherent for force users for some reason (also it's HEAVILY implied she's Luke's daughter) and maybe being immune to mind reading is basic Jedi... and maybe using the force for mind control is also basic skill... but NO fuck her fighting the bad guy and winning (and yeah I know he was hurt, still there's a huge skill gaps). To quote Han Solo: "the force doesn't work that way". Also another thing, considering the fight, I wonder if she'll ever get actually hurt or lose a limb, because female mutilation is far worse then male mutilation for our society, and I doubt the writers have the balls to do that. And let's not talk about her fanboyism which screams "self insert author".

Haha, I actually found that really wrong as well at first. But then I thought about it and I realised I was looking at this fight through prequel plus SW games glasses.

Luke defeated Vader as well though he had like a couple of months training tops. That's with the prequels basically establishing that Jedi need to train for years upon years and that Vader was the most ridiculously OP Jedi with a bazillion midichlorians. Evidently the force didn't work "that way" either in the originals.

Similarly, in the games you become more powerful by just grinding missions and such until you get more force points and somesuch. But again, the force doesn't work "that way."

Thinking back about that, Rey is calm and collected, she does what she needs to do without being distracted by emotions. It's no real surprise that she managed to defeat a wounded Kylo who is basically just an angry kid who had some training.

Now I am already a fanboy as I stated above. But I do see the negative points as well, as you said she's too perfect. Plus she appealed too much to nostalgia. But it didn't bother me for the simple reason that Star Wars really needed to pay hommage to its roots after the prequels. Now that it's done though, lets hope they deepen the scope.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

A couple notes: The non-verbal interactions between characters was interesting and made the movie work so much better than any of Lucas' works. It was extremely satisfying to see the look on Luke's face when Rey approached him and drew Anakin's blue saber. No words were needed, and I loved every moment. Sure I wanted more but I was content with what I saw.

The destruction of the New Republic planets and fleet as far as I can extract was not Coruscant but another system entirely named Hosnian. My inference is that Coruscant is still under control of the Imperial Remnant. The First Order is a different group and I hope they explore the Remnant as well as the Order in the next film.

Kylo Ren is also Ben Solo, of course and the implications of that are interesting. I question Rey's parentage, and wonder exactly who she is. Finn is also a mystery. It seems that the Order's Stormtroopers are kidnapped at a young age, likely shortly after birth and conditioned by the Order for total loyalty. In Finn's case, he does not agree with the Order's methods and intrinsically rebels against them. Finn wants to be a hero but he's also scared immensely by the Order. I'm curious if they're going to try to wedge Finn into the story as Lando's kidnapped son or something like that... On that I hope they don't, as much as I love Lando, I feel it would be poorly done to go that route. Back to Rey, I'm thinking there's a Skywalker connection just because of her intrinsic nature of being good with machines and a superb natural pilot like Anakin and Luke. It's basically telegraphed and I'd actually be disappointed if they don't go that route.

Skywalker seems to have a huge weight on his shoulders, and does not seem pleased to see Rey. Whether its due to Rey's heritage or him not expecting to see his father's lightsaber, thought lost on Bespin... He's definitely perturbed by her and its presence. So much weight in that scene.

I'm curious about Maz, hope they explore her more. I know there's going to be a huge angle with her story about recovering Anakin's lightsaber. They'd be stupid not to explore that after setting it up.

Lastly, love the cameos from Ewan McGregor and Frank Oz and the partial posthumous Sir Alec Guinness vocals during the flashback. Makes me wonder if we're going to catch more glimpses of past Jedi force ghosts (though please leave Anakin/Hayden out of it if this happens). Oh yeah, Poe Dameron is one badass pilot. I hope we find out he was trained by Wedge Antilles because we really need to find out what happened to Wedge, the only man to have survived both Death Stars.

Overall loved the movie, was extremely elated afterward and have been smiling since walking out of the theater. I don't feel it was just a rehash of Ep. IV. Yes it called back to it a lot, but overall I felt it was well done. I'm not nitpicky and overly critical, it hit the right notes for me and made me smile, despite having called Solo's end.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

1) Elephant in the room: How the bleeding hell did all of this just happen???!. I can get that the empire wasn't just magically defeated when the Emperor died, but how the hell did this First Order business start. Who are they, what are they about, how did they come to be?

If you roll up a bit, I posted the explanation for the state of the galaxy at the beginning of Episode VII. It was released in some film promotional material.

Uh...it's on page 4. Sorry. So...go BACK a page, and roll up a bit.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

1) Elephant in the room: How the bleeding hell did all of this just happen???!. I can get that the empire wasn't just magically defeated when the Emperor died, but how the hell did this First Order business start. Who are they, what are they about, how did they come to be?

If you roll up a bit, I posted the explanation for the state of the galaxy at the beginning of Episode VII. It was released in some film promotional material.

Uh...it's on page 4. Sorry. So...go BACK a page, and roll up a bit.

Ok fine. But still a little brief to cover such a massive big deal. Especially with the freaking uber Death Star appearing out of no where.

As you pretty much said yourself too: show don't tell is the operative term here. They need to show those things in the movies proper, not just in some promotional material.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Ok fine. But still a little brief to cover such a massive big deal. Especially with the freaking uber Death Star appearing out of no where.

As you pretty much said yourself too: show don't tell is the operative term here. They need to show those things in the movies proper, not just in some promotional material.

I agree, with the caveat that the film already felt overstuffed (understandably). And given its nature as an action/adventure film, bloating it out by another twenty-thirty minutes really isn't an option. They had to cut somewhere, and "discussions about the political state of the galaxy" was clearly on the chopping block given the withering response to similar stuff in the prequel trilogy.

The film was positively ALLERGIC to ANYTHING that could bridge it to the prequel films.

 

[Zontar]

Plus the lightsaber fights have some real impact, even if it's basically two amateurs taking swings at each other.
It now actually seems like they're trying to hit each other, instead of waving around glowsticks.

This is due to the fact the two where using an actual sword fighting style. It looked like the way two actual people trained to use such weapons would employ them, which Kylo was and Finn is implied to have received some training for (we see a random stormtrooper employ melee combat with Finn, so they probably get at least some training).

 

[Fdzzaigl]

I agree, with the caveat that the film already felt overstuffed (understandably). And given its nature as an action/adventure film, bloating it out by another twenty-thirty minutes really isn't an option. They had to cut somewhere, and "discussions about the political state of the galaxy" was clearly on the chopping block given the withering response to similar stuff in the prequel trilogy.

The film was positively ALLERGIC to ANYTHING that could bridge it to the prequel films.

Agreed, but I hope they at least get some time somewhere in the future films. It's needed.

This is due to the fact the two where using an actual sword fighting style. It looked like the way two actual people trained to use such weapons would employ them, which Kylo was and Finn is implied to have received some training for (we see a random stormtrooper employ melee combat with Finn, so they probably get at least some training).

Yeah, much much better. When I watched the prequels the first time I was sort of OK with it all too, given that I was pretty young still. But then I recently watched those fights again and I just had to quit when Anakin / Obi-Wan do that stupid whirling thing.

Anyone with a head on their shoulders could have killed them 10 times over while they were doing their cool shit.

The Darth Maul fight still has them beat though.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Agreed, but I hope they at least get some time somewhere in the future films. It's needed.

Yep. Some quiet/reflective/character building moments in general are sorely needed. I would've liked to cut/trim down either Maz's cantina or Han's beast-smuggling to make room for this. Would've resulted in a better film. But they had a lot of fan service and re-establishment of 30 year old thematic beats to work on, and clearly felt there was just no time.

However that heavy lifting has been done now, the reception was positive, and Episode 8 can and should set about the business of exploring the new characters/setting in earnest.

The Darth Maul fight still has them beat though.

Couldn't disagree more. Outside of the contextual/emotional heft of the two Vader/Luke fights, the battle in Force Awakens easily eclipses the other saber fights in the series. Easily. And it looked absolutely gorgeous, too, in the dark/snow.

My disdain for the weightless, tension free shadow fencing of the prequels is pretty well established though. And Maul's death scene...oy vey. For such a "well choreographed" fight having him just stand there gormlessly while Obi-Wan jumps over his head.

Pathetic.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I would've liked it if they had maybe slapped a beard on a Ford, or a moustash, or something. Maybe swoop his hair back. Just make him look different. Now it looks like 30 years have past for the actor, but not so much for the character, if that makes sense.

Good Christ, can you imagine if they put like...a handlebar mustache on Han Solo?

The die hard fans would burn the theater down.

And I guess that kind of cuts to the core issue I have with this movie; It's REALLY safe. It's a fine space adventure flick, but man could you tell they were treating it like the most precious faberge egg.

I'm also bummed we didn't get live-action Andy Serkis as New Emperor.

 

[Happiness Assassin]

Walking into this thread with a positive opinion seems dangerous, but fuck it, I loved the movie. Like, I really loved it. I would personally put the movie up there with the original trilogy. The movie isn't perfect, but no movie ever is and if you let the small nit picky bullshit ruin a good movie for you, well, that is your loss.

My main complaint is that it seemed like the movie could be cut together better. It seemed like that there were scenes cut from the theatrical run for the sake of running time and as a result, we lose some context for certain scenes. Like the Hosnian system being destroyed, if you missed the few lines explaining what it was, you just had to assume it was Coruscant. We have no context for who these people are that are being killed and what they mean for the story. I just feel that this movie could definitely benefit from a director's cut of some sort.

Another complaint I have is a character acting as a Mar(t)y Sue of sorts. And that would be Poe Dameron. From what I saw in this movie, he is goddamn perfect. Charismatic, smart, loyal, a good judge of character, and un-godly piloting skills. He is just too awesome of a character to exist. I want more of him and at the same time think that having more would just make everyone else lesser by comparison. Some people here are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, but she ain't anything on Poe.

Also it seems that of all the things that survived the canon purge, the empire's obsession for building superweapons is still here.

Beyond that, I have no complaints. The music is (as usual) on point, the characters well written, the acting is great (especially from Ford, who I was worried would seem a bit jaded in the role) and the effects are just so damn good. In fact the practical effects are so good that the only 2 CGI aliens actually kind of suffer as a result. If you are a Star Wars fan, watch it. If you like movies, watch the other movies, then watch this. If you were cynical about the movie from the announcement, no amount of praise I heap on this movie will convince you that it is good.

 

[Zontar]

Also 2 plot holes I've noticed-Finn saying it was his first real fight... Might be true, but weird as he seems to be versed in the alien hentai monsters which implies he met them before, the second how did Ray know about the jedi mind trick?

I don't know, Finn knowing what those animals where doesn't mean he has ever actually seen one in person or was involved in combat against them. After all we're all aware of what a zombie looks like but I doubt anyone has ever actually met one.