Star Wars: The Old Republic is EA's Most Expensive Project in History

[Eldarion]

No, I mean the Escapist's! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Grammar-Nazi-Guild]

Oh dear lord..........I did not know the grammar Nazis have a user-group.

I'm not on the death list, oh good I can relax.

 

[Xanthious]

Since they're obviously giving this the time and budget it needs, why is it so hard to believe it will be the new big MMO?

The answer is multifaceted. The two major problems any new MMO faces at this point are this. First MMOs require more time than your average game. That being said, most people are lucky to enough time to devote to one MMO never mind two. Adding on to that point, most people who want to play MMOs already are playing an MMO they have devoted a lot of time and effort into. ToR is going to have to convince people to up and leave their current MMO to play ToR and that is only the tip of the problems it faces.

On top of an already crowded market with very few pools of untapped customers there is also the problem of getting people to transfer to ToR in groups rather than individually. If you don't create a mass exodus from the other MMO titles (read: WoW) people will play for a while then ultimately go back to where their friends are.

I don't question how well the game it's self will sell. I honestly believe it will move boxes off shelves like crazy. However the measuring stick for success won't be how many boxes it sells but how many people it can hold onto, and that is where I think it will fail. Simply put the timing is wrong right now for ANY new MMO to hope for anything other than a very distant second place and that I think is where ToR will ultimately end up.

 

[Weaver]

EA, are you fucking stupid or something?
This game will not bring in 10 million active subs, I'm sorry - you've just wasted your money.

The only way I'd play this, or any other MMO is if there is no subscription fee or if it's as low as $5. I've wasted so much money in the past on these colossal time sinks. Besides being in the starwars universe, how is this game going to be different AT ALL from other MMO games?

 

[Kmadden2004]

Rainboq: Love the Cinema Snob avatar, man!

It's yours if you want it!

Also, note the handy quote button, it PM's whoever you quote so they don't have to search the thread!

Yeah, I usually do click the 'quote' button, guess I was just a tad lazy this time...

Don't worry about the avatar, it's your's and I don't think there's enough room on this site for two Kickassia GIFs

Thanks for the offer, though.

 

[Danpascooch]

Since they're obviously giving this the time and budget it needs, why is it so hard to believe it will be the new big MMO?

The answer is multifaceted. The two major problems any new MMO faces at this point are this. First MMOs require more time than your average game. That being said, most people are lucky to enough time to devote to one MMO never mind two. Adding on to that point, most people who want to play MMOs already are playing an MMO they have devoted a lot of time and effort into. ToR is going to have to convince people to up and leave their current MMO to play ToR and that is only the tip of the problems it faces.

On top of an already crowded market with very few pools of untapped customers there is also the problem of getting people to transfer to ToR in groups rather than individually. If you don't create a mass exodus from the other MMO titles (read: WoW) people will play for a while then ultimately go back to where their friends are.

I don't question how well the game it's self will sell. I honestly believe it will move boxes off shelves like crazy. However the measuring stick for success won't be how many boxes it sells but how many people it can hold onto, and that is where I think it will fail. Simply put the timing is wrong right now for ANY new MMO to hope for anything other than a very distant second place and that I think is where ToR will ultimately end up.

I disagree, if there is any time it is now, WoW is just old enough that people are ready to leave it for something better, but not so old that people got bored of it and quit MMO playing outright.

This game had technological advantages over WoW, and is being given considerable resources, it will also have something WoW doesn't: Story.

I think it will take second place, but not a distant second, perhaps with 30% or so less subscribers than WoW in a couple of years, and you can do much worse than second place when first place means over 10 million subscribers.

 

[Danpascooch]

I've never known Bioware to "shoehorn" story into anything, what makes you think that this will just have a story tacked on? Bioware is amazing at weaving stories into games without it feeling tacky.

And if you cap at over 10 million, how can that be viewed as "going nowhere"? This game is ten years old, and has over 10 million subscribers, that's the most successful and profitable game of all time, I wouldn't say the genre is "going nowhere" because a game in that genre can ONLY get over 10 million.

You're right to an extent. Bioware games always have good writing, and the good writing usually overshadows any flaws in the game. However while that is fine for a singleplayer game that you use 30 hours or so to play through once, its just not gonna work that way in an MMO where players are expected to use possibly thousands of hours. I dont doubt that lvling up part of TOR will be great, but I have very huge doubts about the endgame.

You're also completely missing the point about wow (Which is only 5-6 years old. Not 10). WoW did bring something new to the table when it came out back in 2004. Even though it did steal most of its mechanics from other mmo's at the time it did it very well, and blended it together into a new experience that people hadn't seen before.
However since then there have been pretty much zero innovation in the genre. Because every dev and their mom wanna get a piece of WoW pie they try to remake wow with a bit of makeup to make it look new, but it just never works.
Devs need to get out of the mindset that they need to be like WoW to be successful, and start innovating. The only game that can tip WoW off its pedistal will be a game that advances the genre, and gives mmo players a new and interesting experience.

And what could you infuse into the MMO experience that would be more innovative than fully voicing it and giving it a story?

I don't expect to kill WoW, I never said it would, but I think it will be very successful and have well over a million subscribers, too many people measure success in the MMO world as "being as successful as WoW" that's like comparing any new company to google, of course it's not going to do that well, but it doesn't have to do that well to be wildly successful, and I think it will be a higher quality game than WoW, how that translates to sales figures, I can't say.

 

[Raithnor]

2. The pvp is gonna be MUCH better (Will there even BE pvp in TOR)?

They've actually demostrated PVP, it's just they haven't made a feature specifically how it works.

Near as I can tell other than the four starting planets (Tython, Nal Hutta, Ord Mantell, and Korriban) the entire game is open world cross faction. Some of the planets are more PVP friendly than others. (Balmorra, Tattooine, Hoth, Voss)

Now the hard and fast details of how the PVP work I don't know, but they have released footage of people PVPing in the game though.

If this is true, how will they realize their promise that your story will be completely unique to your class and have persistent effects on the world? I see no way they'd be able to do that without instancing.

"Unique to your class" means no sharing of contacts between the various classes. I'm thinking if a Trooper and a Jedi Knight go to a planet they'll probably talk to different people unless it's a flashpoint (team-based) mission.

"Persistant effects on the World" might mean that the world remembers your previous choices and adventures. Sort of like how when you transfer a game from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 the NPCs remember how you treated them. I don't think it means "See that Giant Hole there? managed to sneak in and blow up the fortrees that use to be there."

There might be "instancing" but they also might have figured out of way to make it relatively seamless rather than the traditional "Open Door, Loading Screen, New Map".

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Shame it's going to fail miserably...If my intuition is anything to go by. And it's usually right.

Well, it won't fail financially. But it won't be a good game.

I think it will fail on both counts.

BioWare are known for the quality of their story-telling and the way they get the best out of their voice actors and creative artists to weave a tale which puts you in there as the central character. All of that is out the window with an MMO. We are talking about everyone being the same old same old character.

BioWare are also known for their plot twists and unexpected rabbits out of hats. In an MMO, such a thing is not possible. Quests will be group quested for a decent MMO, without anything in the quest leading back to *you* (think about the origin of Revan, or about the whole Spirit Monk thing in an MMO).

Another thing BioWare are known for is mediocre gameplay, horrible user interfaces, and shallow and unbalanced leveling systems. These are essential aspects to an MMO, and BioWare has a track record of making these things suck.

Actually, SW TOR has voice acting, a story, companions that you can get, you're character isn't just that other guy,

If your character is going to be the pivotal special one then that means this universe is going to be full of pivotal special ones, and that isn't going to work too well.

and how the hell can you say that Bioware games have mediocre gameplay ?.. have you played KotOR, and I mean on the PC especially .. or have you whatched any of the gameplay vids ? .. the combat seems to be quite good.

I have played them and they suck balls with regard to gameplay. The combat is tragic on an almost surreal level, with followers getting stuck behind walls or wandering right into a hail of gunfire or even more commonly not moving at all but not doing anything much either. Of course the worst thing is probably the inventory system. No matter how many times BioWare has tried to do things differently they always manage to make a collosal pigs ear of it. Also compare their leveling and RPG aspects to those of other RPGs - even Sacred 2 had a deeper and more 'characterful' RPG system.

Add to all that the inherent difficulties of making a Star Wars MMO (everyone will be a Jedi etc) and you have sure-fire loser. BioWare really should have stuck to what they are good at. If this works it will be a pure miracle.

 

[CloudKiller]

High risk, high reward. SW:TOR is shaping up to be a really good game and I simply cannot wait for the release!

 

[Feriluce]

I've never known Bioware to "shoehorn" story into anything, what makes you think that this will just have a story tacked on? Bioware is amazing at weaving stories into games without it feeling tacky.

And if you cap at over 10 million, how can that be viewed as "going nowhere"? This game is ten years old, and has over 10 million subscribers, that's the most successful and profitable game of all time, I wouldn't say the genre is "going nowhere" because a game in that genre can ONLY get over 10 million.

You're right to an extent. Bioware games always have good writing, and the good writing usually overshadows any flaws in the game. However while that is fine for a singleplayer game that you use 30 hours or so to play through once, its just not gonna work that way in an MMO where players are expected to use possibly thousands of hours. I dont doubt that lvling up part of TOR will be great, but I have very huge doubts about the endgame.

You're also completely missing the point about wow (Which is only 5-6 years old. Not 10). WoW did bring something new to the table when it came out back in 2004. Even though it did steal most of its mechanics from other mmo's at the time it did it very well, and blended it together into a new experience that people hadn't seen before.
However since then there have been pretty much zero innovation in the genre. Because every dev and their mom wanna get a piece of WoW pie they try to remake wow with a bit of makeup to make it look new, but it just never works.
Devs need to get out of the mindset that they need to be like WoW to be successful, and start innovating. The only game that can tip WoW off its pedistal will be a game that advances the genre, and gives mmo players a new and interesting experience.

And what could you infuse into the MMO experience that would be more innovative than fully voicing it and giving it a story?

I don't expect to kill WoW, I never said it would, but I think it will be very successful and have well over a million subscribers, too many people measure success in the MMO world as "being as successful as WoW" that's like comparing any new company to google, of course it's not going to do that well, but it doesn't have to do that well to be wildly successful, and I think it will be a higher quality game than WoW, how that translates to sales figures, I can't say.

I completely agree with you in that it will be higher quality than wow. Most of the newer "failed" MMO's have been higher quality than wow to be honest.

To answer your question: It would be more innovative if Bioware had made the combat more engaging and tactical, if they'd dropped standard mmo quests (I dont know anyone who's not sick of "Go kill 10 bears and gather their asses" kinda quests) in favor or something more interesting, etc.
Incidentially GW2 seems to have done a lot of those things.

Dont get me wrong. I'm not a GW fanboy as such. I'm very much aware that A-net can drop all their promises on the floor and make a horrible game thats not even worth the box price, but from the info I've seen from both games so far, I'm in no way in doubt of which I'd rather play.

2. The pvp is gonna be MUCH better (Will there even BE pvp in TOR)?

They've actually demostrated PVP, it's just they haven't made a feature specifically how it works.

Near as I can tell other than the four starting planets (Tython, Nal Hutta, Ord Mantell, and Korriban) the entire game is open world cross faction. Some of the planets are more PVP friendly than others. (Balmorra, Tattooine, Hoth, Voss)

Now the hard and fast details of how the PVP work I don't know, but they have released footage of people PVPing in the game though.

If this is true, how will they realize their promise that your story will be completely unique to your class and have persistent effects on the world? I see no way they'd be able to do that without instancing.

"Unique to your class" means no sharing of contacts between the various classes. I'm thinking if a Trooper and a Jedi Knight go to a planet they'll probably talk to different people unless it's a flashpoint (team-based) mission.

"Persistant effects on the World" might mean that the world remembers your previous choices and adventures. Sort of like how when you transfer a game from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 the NPCs remember how you treated them. I don't think it means "See that Giant Hole there? managed to sneak in and blow up the fortrees that use to be there."

There might be "instancing" but they also might have figured out of way to make it relatively seamless rather than the traditional "Open Door, Loading Screen, New Map".

See that is the problem. If they're gonna try to shoehorn a story into an MMO formula where the world is not dynamic in any way and where the choices your make have no effect on the world at all, this game is gonna fall to the ground very fast. If you're gonna sell your game on the epic story, you need to make the players individual choices matter in some way or another. That is what have made bioware games so great in the past. Your choices have a profound influence on the story and the world around you. That gives you a feeling that you're inside this amazing world, and it what makes their games so great (along with great writing obviously).
If they're gonna throw away all the things that have made bioware games in the past great, what are they left with? Horrible mechanics and thin uninteresting storylines? Thats not gonna make a very good MMO.
Bioware might surprise me obviously, and make this game the equivalent to jesus, but I doubt they can pull that off.

 

[Danpascooch]

I've never known Bioware to "shoehorn" story into anything, what makes you think that this will just have a story tacked on? Bioware is amazing at weaving stories into games without it feeling tacky.

And if you cap at over 10 million, how can that be viewed as "going nowhere"? This game is ten years old, and has over 10 million subscribers, that's the most successful and profitable game of all time, I wouldn't say the genre is "going nowhere" because a game in that genre can ONLY get over 10 million.

You're right to an extent. Bioware games always have good writing, and the good writing usually overshadows any flaws in the game. However while that is fine for a singleplayer game that you use 30 hours or so to play through once, its just not gonna work that way in an MMO where players are expected to use possibly thousands of hours. I dont doubt that lvling up part of TOR will be great, but I have very huge doubts about the endgame.

You're also completely missing the point about wow (Which is only 5-6 years old. Not 10). WoW did bring something new to the table when it came out back in 2004. Even though it did steal most of its mechanics from other mmo's at the time it did it very well, and blended it together into a new experience that people hadn't seen before.
However since then there have been pretty much zero innovation in the genre. Because every dev and their mom wanna get a piece of WoW pie they try to remake wow with a bit of makeup to make it look new, but it just never works.
Devs need to get out of the mindset that they need to be like WoW to be successful, and start innovating. The only game that can tip WoW off its pedistal will be a game that advances the genre, and gives mmo players a new and interesting experience.

And what could you infuse into the MMO experience that would be more innovative than fully voicing it and giving it a story?

I don't expect to kill WoW, I never said it would, but I think it will be very successful and have well over a million subscribers, too many people measure success in the MMO world as "being as successful as WoW" that's like comparing any new company to google, of course it's not going to do that well, but it doesn't have to do that well to be wildly successful, and I think it will be a higher quality game than WoW, how that translates to sales figures, I can't say.

I completely agree with you in that it will be higher quality than wow. Most of the newer "failed" MMO's have been higher quality than wow to be honest.

To answer your question: It would be more innovative if Bioware had made the combat more engaging and tactical, if they'd dropped standard mmo quests (I dont know anyone who's not sick of "Go kill 10 bears and gather their asses" kinda quests) in favor or something more interesting, etc.
Incidentially GW2 seems to have done a lot of those things.

Dont get me wrong. I'm not a GW fanboy as such. I'm very much aware that A-net can drop all their promises on the floor and make a horrible game thats not even worth the box price, but from the info I've seen from both games so far, I'm in no way in doubt of which I'd rather play.

2. The pvp is gonna be MUCH better (Will there even BE pvp in TOR)?

They've actually demostrated PVP, it's just they haven't made a feature specifically how it works.

Near as I can tell other than the four starting planets (Tython, Nal Hutta, Ord Mantell, and Korriban) the entire game is open world cross faction. Some of the planets are more PVP friendly than others. (Balmorra, Tattooine, Hoth, Voss)

Now the hard and fast details of how the PVP work I don't know, but they have released footage of people PVPing in the game though.

If this is true, how will they realize their promise that your story will be completely unique to your class and have persistent effects on the world? I see no way they'd be able to do that without instancing.

"Unique to your class" means no sharing of contacts between the various classes. I'm thinking if a Trooper and a Jedi Knight go to a planet they'll probably talk to different people unless it's a flashpoint (team-based) mission.

"Persistant effects on the World" might mean that the world remembers your previous choices and adventures. Sort of like how when you transfer a game from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 the NPCs remember how you treated them. I don't think it means "See that Giant Hole there? managed to sneak in and blow up the fortrees that use to be there."

There might be "instancing" but they also might have figured out of way to make it relatively seamless rather than the traditional "Open Door, Loading Screen, New Map".

See that is the problem. If they're gonna try to shoehorn a story into an MMO formula where the world is not dynamic in any way and where the choices your make have no effect on the world at all, this game is gonna fall to the ground very fast. If you're gonna sell your game on the epic story, you need to make the players individual choices matter in some way or another. That is what have made bioware games so great in the past. Your choices have a profound influence on the story and the world around you. That gives you a feeling that you're inside this amazing world, and it what makes their games so great (along with great writing obviously).
If they're gonna throw away all the things that have made bioware games in the past great, what are they left with? Horrible mechanics and thin uninteresting storylines? Thats not gonna make a very good MMO.
Bioware might surprise me obviously, and make this game the equivalent to jesus, but I doubt they can pull that off.

If I had to choose any MMO to play, it'd be WoW, I had a level 80 warrior but I don't play anymore, so something like WoW but better, has both the potential to be unbelievably good and unbelievably successful, I personally hated Guild Wars, there was no exploration feel in it, and Star Wars Galaxy was "ok" but WoW is no doubt the best.

If it can be better than WoW, which I strongly believe it will be, then nobody can really say it's not a good game, or that they don't think it will be successful.

 

[Feriluce]

If I had to choose any MMO to play, it'd be WoW, I had a level 80 warrior but I don't play anymore, so something like WoW but better, has both the potential to be unbelievably good and unbelievably successful, I personally hated Guild Wars, there was no exploration feel in it, and Star Wars Galaxy was "ok" but WoW is no doubt the best.

If it can be better than WoW, which I strongly believe it will be, then nobody can really say it's not a good game, or that they don't think it will be successful.

GW was more of a pvp game than a pve game as the focus was heavily on pvp. For GW2 it seems that they've taken the great pvp from GW and added on a whole new pve experience with heavy focus on exploration. There is no quests in the usual sense of the word, but instead there is dynamic events littered across the map that you can stumble upon and do either alone, with a party or with whoever found the event at the same time as you. Add to that your own personal storyline, and you have a recipe for a very interesting lvling up experience.

 

[Kukakkau]

Brown admits that the most popular MMOGs are those based in fantasy universes, but doesn't think The Old Republic has a disadvantage there.

Uh-huh cause Star Wars isn't a fantasy universe?

If there isn't a hefty monthly fee I may pick this up.

 

[Danpascooch]

If I had to choose any MMO to play, it'd be WoW, I had a level 80 warrior but I don't play anymore, so something like WoW but better, has both the potential to be unbelievably good and unbelievably successful, I personally hated Guild Wars, there was no exploration feel in it, and Star Wars Galaxy was "ok" but WoW is no doubt the best.

If it can be better than WoW, which I strongly believe it will be, then nobody can really say it's not a good game, or that they don't think it will be successful.

GW was more of a pvp game than a pve game as the focus was heavily on pvp. For GW2 it seems that they've taken the great pvp from GW and added on a whole new pve experience with heavy focus on exploration. There is no quests in the usual sense of the word, but instead there is dynamic events littered across the map that you can stumble upon and do either alone, with a party or with whoever found the event at the same time as you. Add to that your own personal storyline, and you have a recipe for a very interesting lvling up experience.

I prefer PvE to PvP, because I like Coop more than battling others.

 

[Raithnor]

See that is the problem. If they're gonna try to shoehorn a story into an MMO formula where the world is not dynamic in any way and where the choices your make have no effect on the world at all, this game is gonna fall to the ground very fast. If you're gonna sell your game on the epic story, you need to make the players individual choices matter in some way or another. That is what have made bioware games so great in the past. Your choices have a profound influence on the story and the world around you. That gives you a feeling that you're inside this amazing world, and it what makes their games so great (along with great writing obviously).
If they're gonna throw away all the things that have made bioware games in the past great, what are they left with? Horrible mechanics and thin uninteresting storylines? Thats not gonna make a very good MMO.
Bioware might surprise me obviously, and make this game the equivalent to jesus, but I doubt they can pull that off.

What do you mean by "persistent world" exactly? I've play KoTOR, Mass Effect 1 & 2, and Jade Empire. They're neat, but they're set pieces with some extra dialogue based on your dialogue choices. I think the choice that had the most visual impact was to close or open the dam in Jade Empire and you never visited that city again unless you wanted to hit the shops on last time.

I think there's probably going to be some give and take between the Single-player Bioware model of you being the central hero and the idea of the MMO where you're among many other people trying to make their mark. In KoTOR 1 and 2, the story ended when you vanquished the Sith and either became the new Sith Master or brought peace to the Republic.

 

[Super Jamz]

It'll be done "when it's done?" Where have I heard that before?

Guild Wars 2. Although i can't tell which will be nerdier.

 

[veloper]

And yet the graphics looks like something from 2005? What the hell are they pouring all those money into?

Gameplay hopefully.

If the game also runs on rigs from 2005, this may actually be a good thing.

Part of Blizzard's succes is WOW being able to run on ancient hardware, so more people can play it.
I guess the MMO crowd is different from the enthousiast crowd in this respect.

 

[Baldr]

If I have to educate people. Half of World of Warcraft's subscription numbers only come from the US and Europe. Where do the other half come from? Asia. Primarily Korea and Japan, and depending on the mood of the Chinese government then China(but most connect to Korean servers).

It is very rare for a western game to make it in Asia. Blizzard had some help with the wildly popular Korean pastime of Starcraft.

What makes it more difficult is that Star Wars, while known in Asia, never had the popularity it shared in the US and Europe. SW:TOR would have be pretty special to be popular there, if it is not, then it can never match the numbers World of Warcraft has.

 

[Keepitclean]

I don't think Star Wars is a good franchise to make an MMO on. It's not that space is a bad idea, it's just that Star Wars is already a solid franchise and with that comes serious restrictions. I think Bioware would be better off making a Mass Effect MMO if they are going to use an already established franchise.