Star Wars: TOR Designer Explains BioWare's Death Stance

[adderseal]

If you die, you should respawn in the nearest town with all your things and stats intact. That's the only way I'd ever consider paying for an MMO.
MMOs have so many different variables that can contribute to death that you don't want it to completely cripple you.
I stopped playing Runescape after I died for the first time. Weeks of hard work to buy full Rune plate and a Dragon sword- gone in a second of lag.

 

[Callate]

Given the setting, death should make you come back with a cybernetic limb.

 

[Pumpkinmancer]

I thought guild wars had a decent system. You just gain a small but temorary debuff on death. Death over and over again increase this to higher levels. It will eventually go away on it's own, or you could just visit a settlement and it's gone for good, of course that might mean starting a quest or a trek all over again.

In Star Trek Online I found that starting back at a respawn point, which could be accross the map from where I died, was enough punisment for that game as well.

 

[mythgraven]

It has to suit the game. Lagspikes and other possible accidents have to be taken into consideration. Rift seem to have it down, somewhat at least.

All the stuff I said prior

Spoken like the true words of a self-entitled casual.

Do you believe that perma-death is the same as denying someone access to content?

You know, all bullshit aside, I had re-read my little diatribe the following day, and youre right, I sure did go off on a tangent there. Alot of what I took issue with has little to do with the Death Penalty issue, and only a little bit about the culture behind them.

However...


You labeled me as a possible "self-entitled casual". There are two schools of thought on that there.

One: Hell Yes Im entitled. So are you. So is everyone else paying for the game.

and Two: Where for thou railest against me? Why do you consider yourself, myself, or any other, "entitled", to anything digital? Surely you dont equate the goings on in a completely digital world with real life concepts of honor, worthiness, or entitlement?

Because, its just a game, brother. Something the "casuals" and elitists cant seem to come to an agreement about. Nothing that is done in PvP, or PvE, is going to be made into the next great epic novel, and nor should it. Because you managed to make my online avatar simulate death, or because your NUMBERS were better than the Lich Kings NUMBERS, doesnt make you anymore of a man. It Just. Plain. Doesnt. Speak not of honor, when you dont actually understand it, and speak not of your glories, when they are all in relation to someones imaginary media.

So Im not sure I understand your accusation of self-entitlement. You would make it seem like I was impinging on your rights, which I am not. Or asking for a share of your paycheck. Because Im not asking for anything at all, from you personally.


Whiskey Echo!!
Mythgraven

 

[takeno98]

NGE was an attempted solution to the problem, it wasn't the problem. People like to romanticize SWG and blame SOE for the kiss of death, when the reality was that players simply moved-on to other games at the time, namely one called "City of Heroes" and a little game called "World of Warcraft".

Which is why when a city full of people protested the incoming of the NGE they were teleported into space by the GMs and the forums were locked to non-subscribers?

I've seen the Graveyards of Tatooine and the hatred of PoK on Everquest. It's not romanticizing at all. It's SOE releasing new content that swamped the old content leaving it barren. Simple things like the release of GoD which gave new players platinum coins, destroying the market and making old achievements worthless.

Or have they actually fixed the ships that have been bugged since release? Or the tutorial that wasn't updated since the original release of Everquest?

They release updates which allow new players to reach the heights of old players without any of the effort or loss, that's what allowed WoW to grab up new players.

SW:G was released on 26 June 2003, CoH was released less than 10 months later, WoW was early 2007 (nearly 3 years after). NGE was released on November 2005 (1 and a half years after CoH, 2 years before WoW).

CBS News, New York Times, New York Post and Wired Magazine all criticized the NGE.

We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players.

?John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment

Biggest problem with the NGE? Jedi at the start.

What does TOR promise? Well...I'll let you guess.

Not to nitpick, but World Of Warcraft was released in November of 2004, you may have been thinking of the first expansion, Burning Crusade, which was released in January of 2007.

 

[Woem]

I read "Death Star in TOR" instead of "Death Stance"

 

[beniki]

Sooo many shiny words and not a single definate statement in them. Great example of Dev-Talk, which more and more resembles politician-talk.

Seconded. I'm tired of hearing these devs all talking about 'moderate' death penalties as if it's news. It's not ground breaking, it's just bland common sense.

Now if a developer came out and said we're having a totally soul destroying death penalty but we balance it with this clever mechanic, then I'd be interested. Or the opposite... no death penalty, but we'll make you cry when it happens.

Either way, talk is cheap, show me the mechanics!

 

[spartan231490]

I think it's a little too easy in wow, especially recently because they's a new graveyard every 20 feet.(exaggerated, obviously) I would like to see something similar to DA: origins, where dying leaves you with a meaningful penalty, that is easy to get rid of with in-game items or even some spells. Anyone else think this idea has potential in the MMO world.

 

[bz316]

Hello blue force ghosts!!

 

[Kinguendo]

Hmm, I dont think copying what WoW has done will help Star Wars surpass it... Should create their own penalty BUT with redemption tied in. For example, you lose experience (after you get out of the newbie levels obviously) BUT if you go to an academy you can take a test (questions or physical, depending which you feel more comfortable with) that will review your deaths and set up questions or obstacles to help train you to overcome such flaws.

Or something like that I guess would fit into the Star Wars universe, with it having a huge emphasis on acquiring knowledge and/or power and all.

EDIT: Of course the test can only be taken once per death and depending what percentage you pass depends how much exp you get back... this way you can make the percentage loss quite large but redemable and with the added benefit of teaching them more about the game and the Star Wars universe in the process.

 

[Red Right Hand]

I've said it before and i'll say it again. Diablo 2 has had the best death system in any game i've ever seen.

If you die then you can try getting back to where you died and recovering your items and gold. Or you can save and quit and then reload the game which leaves you items on the ground when you spawn but you lose your gold.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

there needs to be *some* death penalty. i firmly believe a lack of death penalty is part of what killed Star Trek Online. the key is balance. too harsh a penalty and you alienate your less hardcore players. too lenient a penalty and you alienate your less casual players. honestly, i hate to say it, but WoW's penalty was damn near perfect. you lose a little time and a little money when you die. it gives you enough sting not to want to die, but it's not like it's set you back hours and hours.

 

[nin_ninja]

A stiff death penalty is a quick way to ensure I wont even consider your game.

I am by no means a newcomer to MMOs, I've played many of them continuously without break for five years now at least. I rarely if ever die. However, when I do die, it's a quick way to dissolve my interest in playing and cause me to go fire up another game.

For me, games are about fun and escapism, not about frustration. Frustrate me and you lose my hold on your product. WoW's death penalty is already tedious enough. Nothing breaks my mojo like doing a dungeon run then having to take 10-15 minutes to recoup after a wipe thanks to the long run back to our corpses, making our way back through the cleared area of the dungeons, then rebuffing and preparing.

Some people might feel they need video games to provide them with a sense of real accomplishment, and therefore want stiff penalties, frustration and annoyance, but I'm not one of them. I have real life to throw my commitments to, I game for an escape from such things.

Seeing as the title of the website is "The Escapist", I'm surprised it seems a minority view. Perhaps it's just a case of people thumping their chests to proclaim their superiority in the face of others less willing to suffer for a game, or perhaps masochism is more popular than I realize. Or perhaps, even, more people come searching for meaning and value in their life in a virtual environment. I don't know.

Its especially annoying when you have to reforge your damaged weapons and armour.

I want to play KoTOR 3, not an MMO, and its nice that they seem to be putting in single player stuff like companions, ships, and easier death penalties.

 

[twistedheat15]

I think ff11 had a good system, some xp lose and a 5 min weakness of halved hp. If you die while weaken and get a 2X then you lose your acc till unweaken to prevent zombie tactics.

 

[Ghostkai]

I actually know exactly what system they use is. But, sadly I am not allowed to state it in an open forum. NDA and all...

But fear not, it's a fairly simple and familiar system to any MMO player.

 

[loremazd]

Having gone from FFXI to WoW, I can say that the xp loss was something I -never- missed. The effects are pretty much unanimous in the fact that it makes absolutely no one help anyone else unless it also benefits themselves.

See a guy will low life running from a mob? With xp loss, I'm not tossing a heal his way, i'm letting him die. Friend having trouble with a quest mob? Sure, i'll help, but only if the monster has no chance of killing me because I vastly outlevel it. It increases the time to form groups, and increases the waiting around time vastly, which anyone will tell you is the most annoying thing about an mmo.

That being said, I suppose xp loss isn't terrible, but -deleveling- is a whole different matter. If you have a game that has you going down levels and items with level requirements, you can count me out.

 

[Kenko]

This is yet another reason I'll be unlikely to play it.

For a bit of context, I was one of those who loved the idea of perma-death for Jedi in SWG, and greatly preferred the pre-NGE version of the same game.

For when you ran into a certain class it MEANT something. It meant that Doctors had put their time in making medicines, healing wounds, and perhaps risking their lives becoming PVP flagged in a hospital.. It meant that Jedi were either badass or stealthy enough to live long enough to level...

But yes, I agree if you are looking for "mainstream appeal" you want it to be as easy as possible to progress.. with all but guaranteed rewards (I hesitate to use that word... wages would be more appropriate) and lots of dropping lewts or quest items.

*sigh* Never mind... if you need me, I'll be over here yelling at kids to get off my lawn.

- Tir

Myeah, gaming is dying. It's just a second job with all these new games. There's no risk vs reward. There's just little breadcrumbs you run around gathering so you can put them together to a half-a-slice of bread. Might as well just get a second job.