Star Wars VII - What if LUKE is the villain?

[BloatedGuppy]

Kylo Ren is played by Adam Driver. We don't just see him in promotional shots, the "robotic" voice we hear in the 3rd trailer is clearly Driver's, as is the long black hair during the lightsaber battle with Finn.

This is not to guarantee that Luke is not an antagonist, but he's not Kylo Ren.

 

[mad825]

I going to put this under spoiler

Spoiler

Nope, it's Adm Drivers that is playing as Kylo Ren aka the Sith like character in the firlm.

Yep, Darth chick-flick. Christ, that guy hasn't even been a sci-fi film/series before.

I have to question how a sequel could exist because Darth sidious was pretty much the "last" sith let alone how Luke could become a fallen Jedi.

Maybe Darth sidious had a bit on the side while commanding the death star and gave birth to a creature known as Kylo. Maybe the galaxy's moons aligned and then became a philanthropist ‎for a day and during that time he taught others the secrets of the Sith.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I going to put this under spoiler

Spoiler

Nope, it's Adm Drivers that is playing as Kylo Ren aka the Sith like character in the firlm.

Yep, Darth chick-flick. Christ, that guy hasn't even been a sci-fi film/series before.

I have to question how a sequel could exist because Darth sidious was pretty much the "last" sith let alone how Luke could become a fallen Jedi.

Maybe Darth sidious had a bit on the side while commanding the death star and gave birth to a creature known as Kylo.

Well while the Sith, post the introduction of the "Rule of Two" have a tendency to train secret apprentices, also when ever they have power they also train force using, light saber wielding enforcers. That's nothing new. Generally out of that sort of mess comes's the next Sith apprentice, when the old apprentice eventually kills his/her master.

OT: I don't think they're going to make Luke the villain, as it looks like they're skipping ahead quite a bit. If they had been able to do such things with a younger cast, they might have made Luke a villain by showing how he got an apprentice killed, felt he failed as a Jedi and fell to the dark side. But since they have to skip ahead so far it looks like they're going into New Jedi Order fighting the Imperial Remnant territory. Also I'm expecting a fan wank for this movie, so I expect Luke to be treated like some god saint last glimmer of hope for the Jedi sort of thing.

 

[Kyrian007]

I'm actually afraid they don't have the balls to do something like make Luke darkside. I won't be all that hopeful about the project as a whole until something proves that Abrams prioritizes telling a good story over making sure the fanboys aren't crying and whining "Imma go tell the internet, WHAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHH" after the curtain falls. If it's part of a well told story I don't really care if Luke is darkside. Hell, if you could tell it well enough I wouldn't care if Han is the new emperor and Leia is "his Vader." What matters is the quality of the film... period. If the movie sucks, but is totally within the realm of possibility as far as Star Wars "canon" is concerned... nobody will care because the movie sucks.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Look, all of you, you're wrong.
Luke can't be the villain because in the original Return of the Jedi script Lucas wrote that Luke kills Vader, but not before Vader imparts the total reasoning behind the Sith thus corrupting Luke. The original ending was Luke dawning Vader's mask and becoming the new Lord of the Sith.

And Lucas has clearly state that ship was forced to sale. He has a singular vision that was over-ruled.
He'd never, ever allow for his original script, having been denied by the distribution companies, to be made, what, 30+ years later?
Never. Ever!

Now...

Spoiler

Will Luke die? YES! 'cause its in the trailers for those of you who can extrapolate

 

[happyninja42]

Nah, he's not going to be the badguy. He's shown hanging out with R2D2 in two of the trailers, I doubt R2 would be rolling with an out and open Sith no matter what.

This theory seems to stem from people freaking out that "OMG they don't show us Luke!? WHYYY!?! It must be 'cause he's evil!" And yet, he's in 2 trailers. Seriously guys, what other hooded person with a metal right hand would be hanging out with R2D2? It's him. He's going to be kept in shadow and mystery for a while, up until it's time for the new kids to embrace their Force powers. He'll most likely show up by being a Force wielding badass, and force push like 2 dozen troopers away from our heroes, and then pull back his hood to show who he is. Then he'll take them back to his hideout and teach them the basics of force stuff. Seriously, turning Luke into the badguy would just be stupid on the part of the writers and Disney. The amount of fan hate that would generate, simply for a "what a twist!" moment would break the internet, and 'cause an army of frothing fans to storm the Disney studios and burn them to the ground.

It's not going to happen, outside of some really lame fanfiction, and that really dumb comic book "what if" they did where he goes dark.

 

[Something Amyss]

What if?

It'd be dumb. Luke faced down the temptations of the Dark Side in Jedi (and the other movies), and was willing to die rather than give in, and he redeemed Darth Vader in the process. To have him either as a Vader worshiper or the architect behind that is to basically undo two of the major story arcs of the Star Wars Universe with no real reason. Oh, I could see Abrams doing that, but it would be freaking stupid.

I think the "Luke Is Dead" theory is more likely, albeit not necessarily likely.

I have to question how a sequel could exist because Darth sidious was pretty much the "last" sith let alone how Luke could become a fallen Jedi.

Maybe Darth sidious had a bit on the side while commanding the death star and gave birth to a creature known as Kylo. Maybe the galaxy's moons aligned and then became a philanthropist ‎for a day and during that time he taught others the secrets of the Sith.

The Expanded Universe had multiple instances of people learning from Sith "holocrons." While I'm aware they've basically made the old EU non-canon, plenty of EU stuff has made it into the new EU. I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this play a role in the story, even if not literally a holocron.

Disney wanted Abrams, though. It's more likely that they saw Into Darkness and thought "this is our guy."

In fairness, Into Darkness was a pretty solid Star Wars fan film.

I personally do not hate the prequels, but I didn't grow up watching the originals so I simply see the original trilogy as a set of interesting but horribly acted sci fi movies. And I personally like how they humanized a character who was essentially Space Hitler (although I can see why people hated that decision).

I think that's what people hate. According to the OT, Anakin Skywalker was pretty much the best the Jedi had to offer. A legend. Granted, Obi-Wan is a big fat lying liar, but we expected to see some nugget of truth in the prequels. They made Anakin a whiny, unlikable brat and never really showed us a "great Jedi." Or even something that could be filtered through the eyes of Obi-Wan and Yoda as great.

Now, I'm not saying you're wrong to like it, and I'm no trying to flame you for liking it. I'm simply explaining why others didn't. Admittedly, myself included, but it's not so much about that as why. Humanising Space Hitler is something hey started with Empire and was a good thing. Turning him into some Emokin? That's more what people take issue with.

It could be interesting if they made Luke the bad guy and set that up as a major thing, that there is some sort of inevitable evil nature to those who are extremely strong with the force. Especially since a major flaw with the series has always been that the bad guys were always far more powerful than the good guys in Star Wars.

Although I am assuming they are just putting Hamill in as a wrap up closure scene, I doubt he will be a major plot point or even appear in any future films. I would be surprised if Ford appears again as well.[/quote]

 

[Fox12]

snip

To be fair, I think the whole "fallen hero" quest line is fascinating. It's what gave Citizen Kane its emotional core, and offers a lot of room to explore theme's about the concepts of good and evil, the nature of power, and the dark desires inside our own hearts. It's what makes real life figures like Caligula and Nero so fascinating. In theory, then, I think the idea of Luke as a villain could possibly work. Heck, if I had my way they would have killed him off at the end of Empire.

But the franchise already tried this once, with disastrous results. It tried to be an old school tragedy. Lucas wasn't nearly qualified enough to pull it off then, and Abram's sure as hell isn't now. To make matters worse, it doesn't make sense when put in context. Honestly, I want this to end as soon as possible so that we can get some original stories with new characters.

In any case, I leave everyone with one nugget of hope. It literally can't be any worse then The Hobbit Trilogy.

 

[Something Amyss]

To be fair, I think the whole "fallen hero" quest line is fascinating. It's what gave Citizen Kane its emotional core, and offers a lot of room to explore theme's about the concepts of good and evil, the nature of power, and the dark desires inside our own hearts. It's what makes real life figures like Caligula and Nero so fascinating. In theory, then, I think the idea of Luke as a villain could possibly work. Heck, if I had my way they would have killed him off at the end of Empire.

But the franchise already tried this once, with disastrous results. It tried to be an old school tragedy. Lucas wasn't nearly qualified enough to pull it off then, and Abram's sure as hell isn't now. To make matters worse, it doesn't make sense when put in context. Honestly, I want this to end as soon as possible so that we can get some original stories with new characters.

In any case, I leave everyone with one nugget of hope. It literally can't be any worse then The Hobbit Trilogy.

Again, though, it's not so much the angle as what the angle would mean in the context of the series. I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that would lend verisimilitude to Evil Luke after the events of Jedi. At least, not without undermining that ending. It's a very similar vein to the Anakin thing: I would have loved it if Lucas had crafted a hero whose fall seemed tragic. Instead, he crafted a dick who couldn't really fall. And honestly, I wanted Yoda to turn to Obi-Wan and say "Called it, I did" after all that. And maybe drop a microphone.

So yeah, it's not the "fallen hero" that's the problem. It's the story ramifications. Or, in the case of the prequels, totally inept characterisation.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Look, all of you, you're wrong.
Luke can't be the villain because in the original Return of the Jedi script Lucas wrote that Luke kills Vader, but not before Vader imparts the total reasoning behind the Sith thus corrupting Luke. The original ending was Luke dawning Vader's mask and becoming the new Lord of the Sith.

And Lucas has clearly state that ship was forced to sale. He has a singular vision that was over-ruled.
He'd never, ever allow for his original script, having been denied by the distribution companies, to be made, what, 30+ years later?
Never. Ever!

Now...

Spoiler

Will Luke die? YES! 'cause its in the trailers for those of you who can extrapolate

My sarcasm detector has returned ambiguous results, so I can't tell if you're serious. How does some old script already confirming Luke's fall to the dark side as a possibility mean that Luke can't fall to the dark side this time around? Besides, I thought Lucas didn't have creative control here, so how could his objections prevent this?

 

[Winnosh]

Remember when Abrahms said that Benedict Cumberbatch wasn't playing Khan in the Startrek movie. The guy lies.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

I hope not, that would go against his character development in the last trilogy. I mean the idea is interesting. but it needs foreshadowing and decent writing to actually work.

Still don't know why they left Luke off the poster, seems like a jerkish thing to do.

 

[Pyrian]

...Han is the new emperor and Leia is "his Vader."

I'd watch the hell out of that. 8)

 

[Something Amyss]

Remember when Abrahms said that Benedict Cumberbatch wasn't playing Khan in the Startrek movie. The guy lies.

The guy lies. But it's one thing to believe he's lying and another to believe that he's spending a ton of money shooting fake scenes and hiring fake actors simply to make Luke Kylo Ren.

It's also worth noting that he's a very bad liar.

I hope not, that would go against his character development in the last trilogy. I mean the idea is interesting. but it needs foreshadowing and decent writing to actually work.

Still don't know why they left Luke off the poster, seems like a jerkish thing to do.

The other major fan theory is that Luke is dead, which fits with not showing him in the trailers (except the possible hooded guy with the robot hand) and not putting him on the poster. The upside to killing Luke is that it doesn't mean the end of Mark Hamill as an actor, since he can play a Force Ghost in the series. However, this might be enough to bump him off the posters without constituting a dick move.

But again, just because it fits doesn't mean it's true.

A lot of people have been convinced Han Solo would die in this movie because Ford wanted him to die in Jedi and they were sure someone big was going to die. What seemed to be ignored early on is that Hamill spent decades trying to distance himself from the Luke Skywalker part, so he makes at least as much sense. That might even mean he doesn't return as pale translucent Luke. But who knows.

 

[Winnosh]

Remember when Abrahms said that Benedict Cumberbatch wasn't playing Khan in the Startrek movie. The guy lies.

The guy lies. But it's one thing to believe he's lying and another to believe that he's spending a ton of money shooting fake scenes and hiring fake actors simply to make Luke Kylo Ren.

It's also worth noting that he's a very bad liar.

I hope not, that would go against his character development in the last trilogy. I mean the idea is interesting. but it needs foreshadowing and decent writing to actually work.

Still don't know why they left Luke off the poster, seems like a jerkish thing to do.

The other major fan theory is that Luke is dead, which fits with not showing him in the trailers (except the possible hooded guy with the robot hand) and not putting him on the poster. The upside to killing Luke is that it doesn't mean the end of Mark Hamill as an actor, since he can play a Force Ghost in the series. However, this might be enough to bump him off the posters without constituting a dick move.

But again, just because it fits doesn't mean it's true.

A lot of people have been convinced Han Solo would die in this movie because Ford wanted him to die in Jedi and they were sure someone big was going to die. What seemed to be ignored early on is that Hamill spent decades trying to distance himself from the Luke Skywalker part, so he makes at least as much sense. That might even mean he doesn't return as pale translucent Luke. But who knows.

I'm not saying Luke is Kylo Ren. I'm saying that perhaps Kylo Ren isn't the guy in the mask.End of the day I don't think it's Luke in the mask or that he's the villain. But it's a valid theory

 

[Winnosh]

And anyway it's just a theory. "A FILM THEORY". thanks for watching

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm not saying Luke is Kylo Ren. I'm saying that perhaps Kylo Ren isn't the guy in the mask.

That's basically saying that Abrams has gone to the same steps, though, making my new argument the same as my old one.

 

[stormtrooper9091]

It would be the ultimate troll move, yes. But it's not happening

 

[Winnosh]

I'm not saying Luke is Kylo Ren. I'm saying that perhaps Kylo Ren isn't the guy in the mask.

That's basically saying that Abrams has gone to the same steps, though, making my new argument the same as my old one.

Not really the same. The idea would be that everytime you see that person in the mask it's Luke. But the Kylo Ren character is still that guy we've seen in all of the footage. There'd be no fake scenes or fake actors. Just a different interpretation of those scenes.

 

[Winnosh]

It wouldn't even be the first time Starwars had done something like this. They had Vader revealed as Ankin Skywalker in Empire Strikes back. Surprising everyone. And that's something that was a last minute change.