Steam, banning players for being generous?

[StormShaun]

steam banned for no reason once......worst player service ever....but apart from that pretty good...

 

[veloper]

Tax evasion
Breaking the TOS
=
BAN
No suprises there. Good for him.

 

[Daveman]

The dude was selling products that weren't his to other people.

... End of story, it's illegal, congratulations for figuring it out, let's move on.

... At least that's how I got it, you can't sell other people's products if you don't have permission. This guy did not have permission. Because yeah, he was gifting them the products, but he got the cash for it, so, he was selling it, not actually giving it away. Therefore it's illegal. Right? I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

The thing is Steam still got paid, they just got the American price. It's like getting your friend to buy you something because he gets a discount at a store and you don't, then paying him back.

That said, they are dodging VAT effectively by doing that, but that's them, not him.

tbh I reckon he must have been doing it on a massive scale in order to get caught.

Yeah? He still did something that was illegal which was selling their product without their permission, that's the whole illegal part of the thing, it doesn't matter if they got paid for it(of course they did, he bought their product).
Just because they got money, but less money mind you, doesn't mean it makes it less illegal, you know.

Well I'd have thought that as what he owns is the license to that bit of software, he's allowed to do what he wants with that. If I buy a game at a shop I think it's reasonable for me to sell it without asking for permission, so why can't he do it with a Steam game? Basically, I'm saying that paying for something grants you ownership of it and you can do what you want with it (except copy it and then distribute that, cause that's piracy).

 

[Simriel]

Not so much "being generous" as deliberately trying to cheat the system. Valve and the publisher may still be making money off of it, but that's like jacking someone's car, but leaving them $10.

What the fuck are you talking about? Valve was cheating the system in the first place by not adjusting the currency. They were essentially cheating European customers and when an American one decides to help them out Valve bans him.

It seems Valve isn't the paragon of virtue everyone though it was.

All video games are more expensive in Europe you idiot, and if fact for the most part Steam is CHEAPER than retailers. Steam are only keeping their prices in line with (and usually lower than) European games retailers.

 

[Something Amyss]

If Valve were actually doing something wrong, don't you think the sharkpit of lawyers standing by for such a juicy company wouldn't tear themselves apart trying to get to them?

Or Blizzard for Battlenet, Microsod for Xbox Live, Sony for PSN, Nintendo for Wiistore?

That's rather specious, isn't it? The real world is rife with instances of corporate entities who have done wrong without suit or have done it for years before any such suit comes up.

 

[Caliostro]

I'd better do this:

Link [https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4044-QDHJ-5691]

Your account may still be used to play single-player games and multiplayer games on unsecured servers

Your account may still be used to play single-player games or to connect to non-secure game servers and for games played over a LAN. To find non-secure servers, please change your filter settings in the server browser list to show servers which are not VAC-secured (from the Steam main menu go to the View option, select Servers and then select "Not secure" in the Anti-Cheat drop-down).
NOTE: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 does not have non-secure server

That's a VAC ban not an account ban genius. You get VAC banned for cheating in VAC protected servers. Has nothing to do with Steam bans. A Steam ban bans you from Steam itself, and is applied for breaking Steam rules.

 

[Fleischer]

It's really sad to see a company get so butthurt as to ban a person for causing steam to lose out on just a few hundred dollars when they make millions anually.

http://www.gamesbrief.com/2010/05/five-reasons-why-steam-will-destroy-the-pc-games-industry/

The price difference is due to the European VAT. For you Aussie, I can only offer my pity and a shared disdain of your governments game hating ways.

Value must pay VAT for the games it sells to the governments that are owed. If Value doesn't have the money, it either pays for its lack of collecting taxes (which makes no sense for a company), or faces fines, if not civil charges, from the governments for failing to pay taxes (even LESS likley). This is a situation where Value is using the CYA policy.

 

[MassiveGeek]

The dude was selling products that weren't his to other people.

... End of story, it's illegal, congratulations for figuring it out, let's move on.

... At least that's how I got it, you can't sell other people's products if you don't have permission. This guy did not have permission. Because yeah, he was gifting them the products, but he got the cash for it, so, he was selling it, not actually giving it away. Therefore it's illegal. Right? I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

The thing is Steam still got paid, they just got the American price. It's like getting your friend to buy you something because he gets a discount at a store and you don't, then paying him back.

That said, they are dodging VAT effectively by doing that, but that's them, not him.

tbh I reckon he must have been doing it on a massive scale in order to get caught.

Yeah? He still did something that was illegal which was selling their product without their permission, that's the whole illegal part of the thing, it doesn't matter if they got paid for it(of course they did, he bought their product).
Just because they got money, but less money mind you, doesn't mean it makes it less illegal, you know.

Well I'd have thought that as what he owns is the license to that bit of software, he's allowed to do what he wants with that. If I buy a game at a shop I think it's reasonable for me to sell it without asking for permission, so why can't he do it with a Steam game? Basically, I'm saying that paying for something grants you ownership of it and you can do what you want with it (except copy it and then distribute that, cause that's piracy).

It's not about what you think, this is about if it's illegal or not. Morality doesn't really matter in this situation - what he did was(from what I gather) in fact illegal.

There isn't much more to it than that. If it turns out Steam were just pissy about the loophole, then they should admit that and give him his account back or something. But if it was illegal - tough shit.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well I'd have thought that as what he owns is the license to that bit of software, he's allowed to do what he wants with that. If I buy a game at a shop I think it's reasonable for me to sell it without asking for permission, so why can't he do it with a Steam game? Basically, I'm saying that paying for something grants you ownership of it and you can do what you want with it (except copy it and then distribute that, cause that's piracy).

First Sale doesn't extend here. This is one of the hazards of digital distribution, Steam or otherwise.

 

[Bobzer77]

What the fuck are you talking about? Valve was cheating the system in the first place by not adjusting the currency. They were essentially cheating European customers and when an American one decides to help them out Valve bans him.

It seems Valve isn't the paragon of virtue everyone though it was.

If they don't like the way the company works, then why even give money to them? Buy games off amazon or something instead of feeding something you hate while looking like a hypocrite at the same time.

Are you actually supporting a company that purposely cheats their customers?

The difference in prices for the EU games are import taxes.

There's import tax on digital data now? Are you serious?

If its imported and they can tax it .. you can bet they will. But yes .. Digital Downloads are considered a physical item as far as the tax man is concerned.

I actually emailed the consumer rights section of the EU back in the 1?/=/1$ days and surprisingly they actually investigated it. It's not a tax as there isn't a generalized EU tax on imports (seeing as we aren't one big country as lots of US people like to think, which also explains why the UK has cheaper prices too), it's actually just because the publishers asked Valve to charge more in Europe, which is why indie games are still incredibly cheap, including some publishers like Paradox, but EA games are like ?50 (67.69$).

 

[Fleischer]

how did Steam know that when they banned his account? Surely they don't have access to his PayPal account or Bank accounts to check? From their perspective all they see is him gifting games to people which you just said is fine. I'm not saying what he was doing was right I'm just saying that they don't know he's doing anything illegal.

My guess would be that amergift gifted a bunch of people - well beyond the average users levels - of gift accounts, and then Value thought to themselves, we have full access to the Steam ID's of everyone he gifted to. Value could then send e-mails to those people with a stern warning that they were taking place in the crime of tax evasion. Also, Value has access to the e-mails and bank account numbers of all those involved parties. I'm sure Value would send a friendly letter to Paypal to cross check a set of bank account numbers, and to see if there was any payments between these parties.

The government would most likely need search warrants to carry out these steps; however, corporations are less restrained by Constitutions.

 

[Fleischer]

Now, as far as I know a ToS violation isn't actually illegal, but it does mean Valve can do just about whatever they want to him.

In this case, there is no crime involved when you break the contract - Steam's ToS, but when amergift violated the ToS, he did open himself up to an uppercut by Valve.

 

[quantumsoul]

Steam should automatically change the price before asking you to confirm purchase. What if someone just want to buy a gift for foreign friends and relatives and is unaware of the price change.

 

[Fleischer]

]Maybe, but import taxed and customs are always the responsibility of the importers (in this case, buyers). Since Valve simply sold the games to a US citizen, they don't need to deal with European import laws at all. They're just strictly enforcing their own arbitrary rules.

My guess would be that Value is worried about being sued or fined by European governments. They'd rather toss the ban hammer around against people skirting rules than draw the ire of a government's legal force. Like you, I'd be interested if Value releases any press statement regarding this issue. Please let me know if you catch any wind of Value clearing the record.

 

[Fleischer]

Either way its a Robin Hood sort of generosity hes going for.

Not really. He's helping people circumvent tax adjusted prices on luxury items. The mythical Robin Hood was stealing taxes that were driving people into abject poverty.

 

[Woodsey]

I have always found the pricing of steam games in Australia a little suspect, I would love to know how it is calculated, I wonder in the future will they be forced to show how they come up with the now abitrary (seeming) price. Maybe they should show a little list.

Your game costs - X
Your country taxes - Y
Misc - Z
Our cut is - Q

You therefore will pay - P



I dont know if this is a lagitimate part of this thread but please read so you can know wheter to be outraged at the prices of your games. (I also found a site doing this research that placed many other countries worse of than Australia, i feel for you columbia)

The Exampled Game

Call of Duty Black Ops.
according to this site http://www.steamprices.com/uk/app/42700/call-of-duty-black-ops
Costs
(I Did the money conversions with todays currencies.)

(US) 59.99
(UK) 39.99 = [US] 63.9920 (6% markup)
(Europe) 59.99 = [US] 81.2707 (39% markup)
(Australian) 89.99 = [US] 90.1700 (50% markup)

Now as an austrlian Sure i think this is bullshit. Furthermore i know it aint tax that they are marking it up for. We have a rather simple "Goods and Services Tax" of 10%, and it does not apply to importated "Goods and Services" that are under $1000. There has been a recent uproar by the department stores so we all learnt a bit about such things. So these games should not be being taxed more than 10% even if they were to be taxed which they wouldnt be....

What i can tell you is that the hard copies of the game, such as sold here by EB
http://www.ebgames.com.au/search?title=Call+of+Duty%3a+Black+Ops
are going for 98 australian bucks, (110 for XBOX, dont know what console games go for in america so cant compare)

(Australian Hard Copy) 98.00 = [US] 98.1960 (64% Markup!!)
(WOW our currancy is doing awesome atm btw... )

I think steam probably looks at all the other options that you have around you in your current location for buying the game... knocks a couple of bucks of that and sits back and watches the money roll in. I dont blame them, the Australian gaming consumer is violated by the retailer dickwolves everyday and doesnt do a thing about it. People complain about the markup, (50% wouldnt you?) but for us Aussies its actually a reasonable saving compared to the hard copy retailers [8%]. Consider again steam specials and australians are saving alot of money thanks to steam compared to retail prices. If it keeps consumers away from buying hard copies of games which are just creations emissions in transport and plastic cases and being sold to 2nd hand stores who are just dickwolves to the developers I am all for steam.

To the matter of this guy buying in america for eurpeans, i hope it happens more and that more people get banned, the more attention brought to the issue the better, if it forces steam to expaline themselves and these prices, will this issue not be completely solved?

But yea you may have noticed i just wanted to rant about the Aussie Markups...

Publishers set the store prices for regions, Valve don't.

 

[Fleischer]

1st of all the next time to try to do that create a throw away account so whn you get banned it does not matter

Except if Value is smart enough to note your bank account number.

2nd your in America right witch means lawyer up or shut up

I don't see the case you are referring to. Unless there is evidence of Value, PayPal or any involved party breaking a law (invasion of privacy), there isn't any legal matter against them. In the US of A, you are innocent until proven guilty, and this applies to *corporations* as well as human beings.