Steam, banning players for being generous?

[Zer_]

How is Getting Paid through paypal to 'gift' some one a game through steam Not selling?
the method may be diffrent but it still looks and sounds like he is selling games to people.

How is it?

You were harping on retarded technicalities here and we're not talking about physical goods anyway, we're talking about subscriptions so why can it only work your way and not this one?
It's not like you're a lawyer or anything.

Also how can valve even find out about the "getting paid through paypal" thing anyway?
Motivation and background seems to be kind of a big factor in your moralizing ways however you all seem to be missing one tiny little detail here:
They (should) have no means of knowing about private transactions.
They banned someone whom the only thing they know about is that they gift a lot of games, nothing more and nothing less, without warning.

How can you not see anything wrong with that and even defend that kind of behavior?

Digital games sales are treated like physical goods legally. This applies to almost every country in existence. I have yet to see one that treats it otherwise.

Second, it's not hard for a retailer to ask for clarification from PayPal on the methods used for payment. First off, they know that a Credit Card wasn't used. It's also possible to determine whether or not the person had the money in their PayPal account prior to the purchases. All Valve has to do as a retailer is ask whether or not the user got that money from a European person or not.

Also, 20 gifted games in the span of a few weeks? All of which aren't even recipients from his own country, let alone continent.

 

[Starke]

Now, as far as I know a ToS violation isn't actually illegal, but it does mean Valve can do just about whatever they want to him.

In this case, there is no crime involved when you break the contract - Steam's ToS, but when amergift violated the ToS, he did open himself up to an uppercut by Valve.

It's possible there's something DMCA related, but, honestly I don't care enough to check...

 

[chinomareno]

They pay taxes where they are purchased, I didn't suggest no one pays tax... so spare me.

You do not pay sales tax where I live unless the purchase is over $1000 and those imports incur duty. In any case how would they bill a foreign vendor for another countries sales tax on a digital sale, let alone a gift? Customs charges you the tax.

 

[Mark Hardigan]

The problem here is (If you read the reddit) that he made this specific account in order to "help people with price problems." While you may consider the overseas prices unfair, there are reasons for them. So Steam was perfectly justified in banning according to both the law and their own TOS. You might disagree with it, but Steam were well within their rights.

 

[veloper]

They pay taxes where they are purchased, I didn't suggest no one pays tax... so spare me.

You do not pay sales tax where I live unless the purchase is over $1000 and those imports incur duty. In any case how would they bill a foreign vendor for another countries sales tax on a digital sale, let alone a gift? Customs charges you the tax.

VAT unequals sales tax. The vendor always pays the VAT.
The customer gets charged indirectly (it's included in the price). Valve does indeed pay VAT for games sold to european customers through them.
Now you know.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah, I figured as much, but I was just pointing out it wasn't as clear cut as it seemed.

Unfortunately, it's VERY clear cut. The digital media that people are clammoring for leads to fewer rights and freedoms for the end user, which has translated into "We're going to bend you over the table."

Ironically, I got chewed out for mocking Steam for this potential recently. I'm not even going to say Steam is in the wrong here, but the point is that what I said they could do is essentially what they did do, and that was what I was told they couldn't and wouldn't do.

It's likely in ten years time Steam will be something akin to Microsoft or Wal-Mart. I wonder where the apologists will be then.

Similar argument was used against McDonalds in the Hot Coffee argument, but given that there are bound to be lawyers who would jump at biting into Valve's treasure pot, don't you think that the balance of probabilities is really against Valve being in the wrong on this one?

That assumes balance. That's like assuming I have the same chance of winning in court as Wal-Mart does.

For your "balance" to exist, one needs to assume that Steam does not have their own base of lawyers to cover their asses, and that one would find going against them cost effective given the ability of larger entities to simply stall court cases to death. And at that point, one might as well concede that the probabilities balance out because fairy dust will expedite things.

This is where theory breaks down in the real world. It rarely pays to square off against such an entity because of their tremendous resources, especially when preventing precedent which could be costly to them. I mean, you could further your argument by pointing out rogue suits that fall into the "rule by exception" fallacy, but those tend to be isolated and not so much done in a well thought out manner.

It took decades of complaints against Wal-Mart for Union Busting and locking employees in at night before these were adressed. By your logic, lawyers should have jumped at the opportunity much sooner. Real world? They didn't. Why? Wal-Mart.

 

[Chibz]

Except everyone here is completely missing the main thing: VAT was paid. In the country where the product was originally bought. After that, the product was given to someone for the all-amazing price of NOTHING.

This is the sequence of events.

Money handed to buyer from consumer->Buyer selects game (VAT is included)->Selects to buy game (Sales tax added) ->Buyer hands game to consumer.

All applicable taxes were paid. There's no tax evasion involved. This is the far more likely series of events...

Steam/Valve realized that he's bypassing the publisher's (incredibly) unfair pricing. They know that if more people did this, they'd lose their cut of the inflated price on a lot more sales. So rather than do the "fair" thing and just cut out the pricing based on location, they ban him for threatening their profit in any way.

Valve: just as evil as the rest.

 

[Awexsome]

Basically looks like a case of someone distributing content without the authority to do so.

Sure it's grey area where "gifting to friends" becomes "unauthorized distribution" but apparently this was crossing the line for Valve. Prices of games higher in EU than on US steam? I'm no economist and don't have a great understanding of my own U.S. taxes let alone Europe.

With a digital market though it shouldn't cost as much as it does to buy from EU compared to the U.S.

Just my two cents. Two and half including tax.

 

[jmarquiso]

it's a common problem amongst digital distributors, and Steam still has problems, but has become better at it. There is, in fact, a blog devoted to the phenomenon of international digital distribution -

http://steamunpowered.eu/

That being said, I've received major discounts on games from gamersgate with the same issue. Somethign that becomes 4.99 pounds becomes $4.99 (sometimes)

 

[jmarquiso]

Basically looks like a case of someone distributing content without the authority to do so.

Sure it's grey area where "gifting to friends" becomes "unauthorized distribution" but apparently this was crossing the line for Valve. Prices of games higher in EU than on US steam? I'm no economist and don't have a great understanding of my own U.S. taxes let alone Europe.

With a digital market though it shouldn't cost as much as it does to buy from EU compared to the U.S.

Just my two cents. Two and half including tax.

Yeah, actually. If one does a LOT of it, they're basically redistributing wealth - they're being paid to gift, essentially. Enough of it probably violates the terms of use.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

That assumes balance. That's like assuming I have the same chance of winning in court as Wal-Mart does.

Equally, your implied assumption that Steam/Valve as as EVIL as Wal-Mart.

All I know is that large companies often have shed loads of lawsuits against them. Steam's been raking in the cash for long enough for lawyers to find holes in their EULA, but we've not heard a peep from them.

Tesco, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Apple, Blizzard, EA have all had numerous suits against them, but Valve? Well, Steam has had criticism for Regional Pricing and Authentication, and an action put against them back in 2007 for Territory Violation.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/49656

Now, given that nothing came from that - and it's similarity to the case here - I'd say the balance of probability is that Steam is within their rights due to their own TOS.

Region locking may not be ethical (make up your own mind on that), but as has been said before, all the mobile companies, Microsoft, Apple and a number of other companies use exactly the same rules. Challenge one, you really have to challenge them all.

Oh, and all DVD movies, 18-rated games etc. etc. etc.

Now if Steam were to allow this, then they could be sued for allowing region-locked software into the public domain; so while it may not be ethical (YMMV) it's not just legal, but vital to their on-going actions.

TL;DR: It's legal, it's just the law that's an ass.

 

[KiKiweaky]

Steam has great offers but new releases I tend to go to ebay/buy it the the old fashioned way. While I dont agree with them charging more in Europe prices are generally higher here for most things so they can get away with it, example -> Petrol *cough cough*

The people doing the banning have more than likely been told to do it by somebody in a bigger office 'cos we want more shiny'. If they stopped charging more it wouldnt happen simple =D

 

[Chibz]

Now if Steam were to allow this, then they could be sued for allowing region-locked software into the public domain; so while it may not be ethical (YMMV) it's not just legal, but vital to their on-going actions.

What law enforces (or even supports) regional locking? I don't see anything that could be construed as supporting such a thing.

 

[CobraX]

So the guy cheats Steam/Valve out of money and is surprised when they take action?!

 

[Conza]

Weird, maybe it wasn't frequent enough, but I think I did this once, and it was an AUD vs. GBP. Or maybe it was an extra copy that I didn't need and was just being generous.

I think what this guy was doing was perfectly fine, and don't understand why he was penalised the way he was, all he's doing is saving his friends/associates money, he doesn't actually gain anything from this at all, not of any tangibleness anyway.

 

[EinTheCorgi]

Can't say I blame steam here there is no way to verify that he received exactly the amount of the game. Steam has no way of knowing if he was charging more or not leaving the possibility of him making a profit on intellectual property without steams consent. So steam may be in the wrong considering no one was really unhappy about the deal but from a business standpoint I can see why they banned him.

So? look at all the people who bought PS3/360s and then sold them for 3x the price...no legal action was taken twords them

 

[Anah'ya]

What the fuck are you talking about? Valve was cheating the system in the first place by not adjusting the currency. They were essentially cheating European customers and when an American one decides to help them out Valve bans him.

It seems Valve isn't the paragon of virtue everyone though it was.

Have you ever considered that it is not VALVE alone that sets the prices, but the local (regional) market and tax laws? This is how money works across the globe. Unless these regional restrictions and the need for VAT and local taxation is removed, people in different countries will see different pricing.

Or are you saying I should whine when I buy something from the US, import it, and end up having to pay an extra few percent of import tax? Are you saying that every single US company is cheating me, because the toll office figures I need to shell out more?

If that is the case, then you may proceed to claim that Valve is "cheating" people out of their money.


As for the OP: Valve has every right to do that. I believe I saw a previous poster, (*scrolls up*) @Blue_vision would be the one, drawing a comparison to someone importing cheap media from China (circumventing import taxes on the way) and then selling it in a store that is actually offering the same media: But at the original price.

By all means I would consider this a crime.

Now, there is nothing wrong with gifting people games, no matter where they are on the planet. Valve will not ban you because you are generous and hand a game over to a friend for his birthday or Christmas. What Valve has every right to do is ground you* to dust if you decide to buy in bulk and receive money for it in return on PayPal. Not only does VALVE have no way of proofing you are actually not making a profit (who knows, you might be asking for a buck or two extra from your "friends"), but you are effectively circumventing the tax system.

*I do not mean you as in you, the individual. Not saying you are doing this or Valve should ground you to dust, it is merely my way of forming a post.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Now if Steam were to allow this, then they could be sued for allowing region-locked software into the public domain; so while it may not be ethical (YMMV) it's not just legal, but vital to their on-going actions.

What law enforces (or even supports) regional locking? I don't see anything that could be construed as supporting such a thing.

You've never heard of DVD regions? or Australia/Germany/Japan getting different versions of Left 4 Dead and others?

 

[Trolldor]

Now if Steam were to allow this, then they could be sued for allowing region-locked software into the public domain; so while it may not be ethical (YMMV) it's not just legal, but vital to their on-going actions.

What law enforces (or even supports) regional locking? I don't see anything that could be construed as supporting such a thing.

You've never heard of DVD regions? or Australia/Germany/Japan getting different versions of Left 4 Dead and others?

Apparently he hasn't. The amount of times I've had to reset my region - illegally - just to be able to watch a DVD I've imported legally.

Titus Andronicus is fucking brilliant, but without an international DVD player I can't watch it without going through some epic loop holes thanks to limited region switching.