Steam, banning players for being generous?

[KalosCast]

this is why I don't have any friends on steam

Because you don't want to inadvertently violate your Terms of Service agreement or because they all got banned doing this for you?

 

[mjc0961]

Being generous would be gifting people games for free (hence the term "gifting"). Abusing the gifting system like that is bad, and I am happy that Valve would rather ban the abusers than shut down the gifting system altogether. If European gamers think Steam prices in their region are too high, they are free to shop elsewhere, unless I missed something massive and Steam is now the only open store in Europe from which people can buy computer games. Or they can write to Steam support en masse and complain about the prices. But pulling stunts like this doesn't help anyone.

I say good for Valve for punishing these people. There is always a right way and a wrong way to protest something you think is unfair. These people did it the wrong way and if they broke any of the rules in the Steam Terms of Use while doing so, they deserve to get the banhammer dropped on them. If I may quote Maddox,

Spoiler

And while this isn't civil disobedience, the same concept applies.

 

[ChaosReaver]

I've gifted cross-continent before, once or twice. I imagine it's just that he did so much of it at once that it set up a flag in the system. Steam was kind of dickish about the whole thing though, I agree. Dude was just being nice and trying to share games; they get their money either way, why ban the guy?

See the thing is though that he was getting money from people to buy them the game for a reduced price. I think what you're doing is a legitimate gift, not a sort of "black market" (for lack of a better term. Front maybe?) shop.

But I digress.

 

[Zer_]

Actually, no. Usually things cost more in europe due to the costs involved with shipping. This is just the publishers being greedy.

You want to know why it's more expensive in some places? Let me lay it out for you. Big publishers have offices and manufacturers (they burn the disks off of a master en masse) that are placed in Europe. This allows them to sell these goods without having to go through VAT, since the discs in question are not actually imported. They are printed and sold in Europe.

Steam, however, is a strictly American retailer. They don't have any subsidiaries in Europe. Therefore they have to apply VAT to the games that they sell. About 15-20% of each sale goes to Valve, most of the rest goes straight to the Publisher. If you want to scold anyone for gouging the price, then look at the local European laws for your answers, if you must, go to the Publishers who set the prices on Steam.

You can hate Steam all you want, I really don't care. Just don't go blabbing out falsehoods and misconceptions just to somehow justify your hatred towards Steam. Regardless of the laws at hand, what the user did was mis-used the gift system outside of its intended purposes.

Valve allowed us to gift games overseas because they want us to be able to gift things to our friends without having to pay the taxes. When someone abuses that privilege, they're risking severe harm towards Valve and the community by satisfying their own selfish ends. If Valve allows this to continue, then they risk losing a Publisher, thus rendering the game unavailable to hundreds of thousands of other users. Why? All because some asshole doesn't want to pay his taxes?! Furthermore, they also risk legal issues, which could end poorly in all manner of ways.

Your arguments are flimsy. The law isn't about interpretation. It's a clear cut law, you see. When you gift something overseas (including digital goods), then it is under the agreement that you are not doing so to avoid the taxes. Read: Receiving the money from the buyer, so he may have someone purchase the game for him/her.

If large corporations like ThinkGeek, cannot sell a product an label any of their packages as gifts, then what makes you think the average joe can? Oh and don't give me the whole "but he wasn't selling anything" crap. As far as the law goes, he was.

There are two equally valid, and separate reasons for which they banned this user.

-The user was breaking the law in assisting European users in dodging VAT taxes.
-The user was undermining the regional prices set in place by the Publisher/Developer.

Had the users exchanged gifts, then maybe this would've turned out differently.

 

[Taunta]

Not quite.

Imagine that if, before even entering the store, you signed a contract that said that you wouldn't do that, and a potential response to you breaking that contract is that you're forever banned from the store.

And then your scenario happens.

This is how Steam works.

Actually, the contract says to not resell the game. I'm not reselling it the product in the example, I'm purchasing it on your behalf.

That isn't what the guy in the OP did though. Buying and gifting games for people in other countries is fine, and sometimes encouraged. Buying and reselling is however, not. The guy in the OP was selling it via a separate PayPal transaction. So simply gifting it wouldn't get you banned.

 

[Canid117]

I would have just started charging the guy overseas prices for every game and item he buys until they recoup their loses. Funny and less cruel! The perfect combination.

 

[Zer_]

I would have just started charging the guy overseas prices for every game and item he buys until they recoup their loses. Funny and less cruel! The perfect combination.

There are a lot of more lenient things Valve could have done to deal with this situation. You know, I may not completely agree with Valve's way of dealing with this, but I don't think what they did was wrong.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

If Valve allows this to continue, then they risk losing a Publisher

Pretty much, yes. If Valve loses the confidence of Publishers then they'll pull up stumps, leave Steam and probably launch a rather large lawsuit against Valve for not taking 'reasonable measures' to protect the property of the Publishers.

 

[Axeli]

Well, it's Valve's house. Either follow their rules or try to find the game elsewhere. Those are their rules, and since that person was in violation of said rules, they have every right to ban his account.

It never ceases to amaze me how ready people these days are to throw away all their consumer rights.

I mean really, lets just let the companies dictate the rules.

Dude, Steam is their platform, so, yeah, they can shut you down if you misbehave. There are usually many other platforms in which to buy games, be it in Retail or any other download service. If I want to smoke in a bar, I go to a bar that allows smoking. I don't go to another persons' bar that specifically says not to pull that shit and expect them to cow-tow to my demands.

I'm all for consumers having as much freedom as possible, so don't get righteous with me. I just understand if I'm using a service such as Steam, there will always be trade offs. If I find these trade offs unacceptable I get the game elsewhere. No one is requiring me or the OP to use Steam.

The difference there is that non-smoking areas or bars are quite justified. Smoking can disturb other customers who use that bar exactly because it doesn't allow smoking, or the bar might want to protect their employees from constant passive smoking.
There are valid reasons for non-smoking rules, hence the law does and should allow businesses to have them.

Allowing businesses to dictate their consumer's rights is another matter entirely. There's a reason for why EULAs are in no way legally binding in countries that have proper consumer rights. Also, this "just don't use that company then" line of thinking is pretty wide-eyed about free market's ability to govern itself through competition.

 

[Jeffro Tull]

What the fuck are you talking about? Valve was cheating the system in the first place by not adjusting the currency. They were essentially cheating European customers and when an American one decides to help them out Valve bans him.

It seems Valve isn't the paragon of virtue everyone though it was.

If they don't like the way the company works, then why even give money to them? Buy games off amazon or something instead of feeding something you hate while looking like a hypocrite at the same time.

That's kind of what I thought about the whole thing. I have no problem with Valve. I've been using Steam since I bought L4D years ago and have never had a issue with them. I would say that if they banned him he was obviously doing something questionable that would have been bad for them business wise. He must have been "gifting" these games a hell of a lot to warrant that kind of attention from Valve. Companies can have questionable practices from time to time, but the companies in question are not always the bad guys. I think a lot of my fellow PC gamers forget this... or blatantly ignore logic... one of the two.

 

[ThreeKneeNick]

He didn't do anything wrong or anything that should be wrong. There is nothing wrong with:

1. Giving money to someone
2. Buying games
3. Giving away games you own

He just completed the circle. There is no logical reason why that shouldn't be allowed. Steam recognized points 2 and 3 (point 1 is out of their jurisdiction) and incorporated it into their service, but at their sole discretion decided that it has a limit. But you can't decide that laws apply only as long as you want them to. Well in a private business you apparently can, but that's the point - its wrong.

 

[Chibz]

He didn't do anything wrong or anything that should be wrong. There is nothing wrong with:

1. Giving money to someone
2. Buying games
3. Giving away games you own

He just completed the circle. There is no logical reason why that shouldn't be allowed. Steam recognized points 2 and 3 (point 1 is out of their jurisdiction) and incorporated it into their service, but at their sole discretion decided that it has a limit. But you can't decide that laws apply only as long as you want them to. Well in a private business you apparently can, but that's the point - its wrong.

I'd like to personally congratulate you on being, seemingly, the only person who gets it.

 

[Holyeskimo]

Not so much "being generous" as deliberately trying to cheat the system. Valve and the publisher may still be making money off of it, but that's like jacking someone's car, but leaving them $10.

I kinda of want to do that now, but i agree with this statement

 

[Vanaron]

He didn't do anything wrong or anything that should be wrong. There is nothing wrong with:

1. Giving money to someone

There is if you do so to cheat your way out of paying taxes.

They have a licensing agreement WITH YOU. Not with the European gamer. Their purchase agreement states that you are purchasing the license to install and play this game to be bound to the Steam account you are making the purchase from, or to one other Steam account AS A GIFT and exclusively through their gifting system.

They can easily prove that these weren't gifts because he was taking money from them. By using their gifting service in the fashion, he's in breach of contract.

What I should be saying is that he didn't break the law, but he doesn't have any legal recourse to get his account back. But hey, you agreed to a contract by using Steam (likely a seperate one to use the store, too but I can't remember, it's been a long time since I set up my account.) Not to mention that if Valve were complicit in this, they could likely be in legal trouble in other countries for circumventing their tax or other commerce laws (which are likely the reasons that the prices are higher).

Actually, no. Usually things cost more in europe due to the costs involved with shipping. This is just the publishers being greedy.

If you're European I'd recommend picking up a non-american copy of a game and checking where it was produced.

 

[Chibz]

There is if you do so to cheat your way out of paying taxes.

Here's the best way to summarize it. If this is too complicated, then there's no hope of explaining.

Game X (Let's say Turtles in Time. I like Turtles in Time) costs $50 to buy where I live, new. But someone else has to pay $60. I have someone transfer money over to my bank account in order for me to buy it. They give me the exact change, I purchase the game on their behalf and mail it out. Savings had by them. The only person who got "cheated" is the store near where he lives.

Oh, and by the way? Private citizens exchanging goods/services aren't required, by law, to collect tax.

 

[Vanaron]

There is if you do so to cheat your way out of paying taxes.

Here's the best way to summarize it. If this is too complicated, then there's no hope of explaining.

Game X (Let's say Turtles in Time. I like Turtles in Time) costs $50 to buy where I live, new. But someone else has to pay $60. I have someone transfer money over to my bank account in order for me to buy it. They give me the exact change, I purchase the game on their behalf and mail it out. Savings had by them. The only person who got "cheated" is the store near where he lives.

Oh, and by the way? Private citizens exchanging goods/services aren't required, by law, to collect tax.

They are if the product gets shipped through international lines... Which happens to be the case.