Steam, banning players for being generous?

[Chibz]

They are if the product gets shipped through international lines... Which happens to be the case.

Actually, no. They aren't. I import many things, and have never once had anything of the sort charged. Very rarely are private citizens expected to collect tax.

With my example I'd probably get charged S&H and shipping fees, but I wouldn't have to charge tax.

And do you silly people even know what a VAT is?

Value added tax, a consumption tax levied on value added

Here's the great thing. No value is added between me (in my example) or the fellow in the OP's story. VAT isn't applicable. He paid any VAT that applies in his own country. It's in the clear.

Valve should've been honest about their motivations. It was to avoid butthurt publishers.

 

[Arker]

They're fully within their right to do that as well, but you're forgetting that they do indeed have higher tax rates over there, as well as they likely have to pay for upkeep on things like servers to download purchases from, people to maintain these servers, offices for these people to work from, customer support representatives for these areas, etc etc etc which would all factor into costs.

In the end, it doesn't matter WHY there was a price difference. Valve made two different offers to two different people, one person sold the offer he was getting to other people and utilized a system for gifts to complete a sales transaction.

It's like this. We both enter a store, and they're selling... I don't know, a movie. You express interest in the movie. They offer it to me for $20 and you for $30. You really want the movie, so I take you to one side and offer to buy it for you. You give me the money, I buy the film. I hand it to you.

The store owner gets butthurt over you getting the film for $10 less and bans me from the store for life.

Perfect analogy.

 

[Chibz]

I think most of us have established that the this person did something wrong.

Publishers decide the price of STEAM games in Europe and non-American countries because if a game in Australia for example is really cheap on STEAM because it has the American digital distribution price (games in the US are much cheaper) then the retailers won't make as much money which the publishers don't want to let happen. Not sure where you got your facts from.

It's called competition. It makes capitalism work.

What this really comes down to is how much authority over your purchases you believe corporations should have. I firmly stand in the "Once I hand them the money they can zark right off" crowd. The control they have over my copy of the game should be exactly zero. I'm unwilling to compromise any consumer rights for their convenience.

Also completely ignore the fact I've proven the other "side" wrong consistantly then sure, we've established what you say.

 

[veloper]

They are if the product gets shipped through international lines... Which happens to be the case.

Actually, no. They aren't. I import many things, and have never once had anything of the sort charged. Very rarely are private citizens expected to collect tax.

With my example I'd probably get charged S&H and shipping fees, but I wouldn't have to charge tax.

It's a matter of scale.
Do it with alot of games at once and the authorities will take your money (import tax), provided they catch you.
The max value simply allowed through is around 20 euros, but most of the time small things just slip through anyway.
If it does happen, you may not agree, but that won't help you.

I reckon if it had been only a few games, the guy wouldn't have been banned from Steam either. Again not because Valve aren't allowed to, but because it wouldn't be worth the bother.

 

[Chibz]

Actually, no. They aren't. I import many things, and have never once had anything of the sort charged. Very rarely are private citizens expected to collect tax.

With my example I'd probably get charged S&H and shipping fees, but I wouldn't have to charge tax.

It's a matter of scale.
Do it with alot of games at once and the authorities will take your money (import tax), provided they catch you.
The max value simply allowed through is around 20 euros, but most of the time small things just slip through anyway.
If it does happen, you may not agree, but that won't help you.

I reckon if it had been only a few games, the guy wouldn't have been banned from Steam either. Again not because Valve aren't allowed to, but because it wouldn't be worth the bother.[/quote]

If it's OK to do once, it's OK to do several times. Again, it really comes down to greed. That and... People don't like to think of valve as anything other than a paragon of virtue. They aren't one, and their fanboys just need to deal with it.

They're wrong, they remain wrong.

 

[veloper]

Actually, no. They aren't. I import many things, and have never once had anything of the sort charged. Very rarely are private citizens expected to collect tax.

With my example I'd probably get charged S&H and shipping fees, but I wouldn't have to charge tax.

It's a matter of scale.
Do it with alot of games at once and the authorities will take your money (import tax), provided they catch you.
The max value simply allowed through is around 20 euros, but most of the time small things just slip through anyway.
If it does happen, you may not agree, but that won't help you.

I reckon if it had been only a few games, the guy wouldn't have been banned from Steam either. Again not because Valve aren't allowed to, but because it wouldn't be worth the bother.

If it's OK to do once, it's OK to do several times. Again, it really comes down to greed. That and... People don't like to think of valve as anything other than a paragon of virtue. They aren't one, and their fanboys just need to deal with it.

They're wrong, they remain wrong.[/quote]

You appear to have messed up the quotes there, but no, just because people usually get away with small things, don't even make them right.

 

[ComNetCom]

If a game costs ?50 in retail, and ?35 on steam, it's not really competitive anymore.

I'm guessing that (besides taxing), Steam has to up the price in order to allow retail to stay competitive.

Just a hunch though.

 

[Gralian]

I suppose being generous is cheating the system, but one has to ask two things in regards to steam's policies:

1) Why do prices vary so dramatically between European / British / American / Australian currency? Why can't games cost the same (roughly)? It can't be that hard to convert currency into a fair standard price.

2) If Valve don't want people using this method of getting games for cheaper by having friends purchase them internationally and then gifting them, why do they promote the idea of gifting games? In fact, why do they even allow international gifting? It really smacks of double standard. It's almost like if you saw a free sample tray, went to take a piece, then took more pieces before being thrown out of the store for taking too many free samples. Except in this case, the person giving the free samples is still paying money to the distributor and is happy to give away the free samples in the first place.

 

[deth2munkies]

Right then, I'm gonna go down to Mexico, buy a ton of X for cheaper than the US price, drive back, and sell it all. If the companies found out and had the gumption to, they could sue my ass off for re-selling their products specifically NOT intended for resale, especially if I classified all transactions as "gifts" to avoid taxes.

He got what he deserved.

 

[veloper]

I suppose being generous is cheating the system, but one has to ask two things in regards to steam's policies:

1) Why do prices vary so dramatically between European / British / American / Australian currency? Why can't games cost the same (roughly)? It can't be that hard to convert currency into a fair standard price.

The euro thing is for the greater part still due to VAT being included in the price in euroland, even with the weaker dollar there is now. This has been explained countless times before.
Generally, consumer prices don't follow the currency rates which fluctuate from day to day.

The Australian difference is inexplicable however.

2) If Valve don't want people using this method of getting games for cheaper by having friends purchase them internationally and then gifting them, why do they promote the idea of gifting games? In fact, why do they even allow international gifting? It really smacks of double standard. It's almost like if you saw a free sample tray, went to take a piece, then took more pieces before being thrown out of the store for taking too many free samples. Except in this case, the person giving the free samples is still paying money to the distributor and is happy to give away the free samples in the first place.

Ask Valve. Maybe they reckoned the actual gifting won't happen on a large scale, because people aren't very altruistic.

 

[Odbarc]

Not so much "being generous" as deliberately trying to cheat the system. Valve and the publisher may still be making money off of it, but that's like jacking someone's car, but leaving them $10.

Isn't more like stealing their car and leaving $20 000?

 

[Gralian]

The euro thing is for the greater part still due to VAT being included in the price in euroland, even with the weaker dollar there is now.

I appreciate the response, but i will say one thing. We have VAT added to our prices in jolly ol' England too and we pay in pounds sterling. Yet the difference in cost between Euro and Pound is still there. Not only that, but as far as i know, Scandinavians have to pay in their own currency too, i'm fairly sure Swedes have to pay in SEK. I don't know what their prices are like, but i'd bet their prices are even more wacky too.

 

[Blue_vision]

Not so much "being generous" as deliberately trying to cheat the system. Valve and the publisher may still be making money off of it, but that's like jacking someone's car, but leaving them $10.

Isn't more like stealing their car and leaving $20 000?

For the number of times that I've had to clarify this (protip: look further into the thread,) sure, whatever number you want so long as it's less than the resale value of the car. The point is that you're still taking money away from them, which we've clarified in this thread is actually taking money away from your governments rather than Valve, a tenfold more stupid move.

 

[veloper]

The euro thing is for the greater part still due to VAT being included in the price in euroland, even with the weaker dollar there is now.

I appreciate the response, but i will say one thing. We have VAT added to our prices in jolly ol' England too and we pay in pounds sterling. Yet the difference in cost between Euro and Pound is still there. Not only that, but as far as i know, Scandinavians have to pay in their own currency too, i'm fairly sure Swedes have to pay in SEK. I don't know what their prices are like, but i'd bet their prices are even more wacky too.

The thing is, the americans don't.
So it's a matter of comparing the price in euros to the dollar and then substracting the VAT and discover we still pay about 10 to 15% too much compared to the americans.
Still not a deal breaker usually, with steam sales.
I remember a time about half a year ago when the euro was about 1,2 dollars though. It was strictly fair then.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I could understand why Valve would do this if there were tax codes and government regulations involved, or if the price of the game in USD vs Euro was being accounted for, but that neither seems to be the case.

Valve cannot claim to follow free-market practices and then set arbitrary prices within that same market by CLAIMING it's now two (or more) different markets.
The fact that the sort of good in question is otherwise INDISTINGUISHABLE between markets proves this.

This is dirty arbitrage, plain and simple.

 

[Chibz]

I could understand why Valve would do this if there were tax codes and government regulations involved, or if the price of the game in USD vs Euro was being accounted for, but that neither seems to be the case.

Valve cannot claim to follow free-market practices and then set arbitrary prices within that same market by CLAIMING it's now two (or more) different markets.
The fact that the sort of good in question is otherwise INDISTINGUISHABLE between markets proves this.

This is dirty arbitrage, plain and simple.

Most the blame lies with the publishers for such a pricing difference. Valve's only fault is defending those who are doing wrong.

 

[Trolldor]

Ask Valve. Maybe they reckoned the actual gifting won't happen on a large scale, because people aren't very altruistic.

The problem isn't that he's gifting.

Why does nobody see this?

The problem is, and this should be very clear to anyone with a functioning patty, accepting money to buy games on their behalf.

 

[GenericAmerican]

So it's like buying something, then selling it too a friend.

Nothing wrong with that.

But if you buy 20 things, sell it too twenty friends in other countries to avoid taxes, then it starts too become a problem.

Dumb...