Steam TOS Leads to Trouble in Germany

[waj9876]

You know, I would probably support Steam, if I still wasn't so bitter from them making it so games you bought from Steam, are only usable if Steam is running.

Used to be that you could play them. Was even one way to fix this pretty big glitch in Skyrim. So yeah, good to know at least in Germany this shit doesn't just get passed over.

 

[Baneat]

General vibe

"At least they're being better than EA and other assorted nasty people"

BEING BETTER THAN EA MEANS FUCKING NOTHING. You wouldn't dismiss a bully because murderers are worse.

Valve have shitty DRM practices, some of the worst in the industry beaten only by a few companies, one of whom earned a golden turd. But making Portal apparently grants you a free pass and as long as you have sales you can dismiss the fact that you don't really own any of those games you paid as much for as an xbox copy would have.

 

[grigjd3]

This sounds like there are important details we're missing.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

This makes my standpoint even easier to defend. If I refuse the terms, then I win. I don't see the problem here.

It would mean having to be extra careful on purchasing games because any further games that use Steamworks DRM couldn't be installed.

 

[lacktheknack]

This makes my standpoint even easier to defend. If I refuse the terms, then I win. I don't see the problem here.

It would mean having to be extra careful on purchasing games because any further games that use Steamworks DRM couldn't be installed.

Well, hopefully gog.com's library expands to Steam standards before Valve makes any unusable terms.

(Which, for the record, they almost certainly never will.)

 

[KDR_11k]

Overall this is good. While I'm not even sure class action lawsuits even exist in German law this whole updating contract bullshit is one of the common abuse factors in computer software these days. I hope the damn severability clause is next, that thing allows companies to write any lies they want into their contracts that may not be legally binding but how would you know that without paying hundreds to a lawyer to decipher that crap? Since every single piece of software throws a 20 page contract at you these days it's impossible to analyze them all to a degree where you know what you actually can and cannot do.

 

[Karadalis]

Yeah.. the Verbraucherzentrale? They WILL go to court with Steam... heck they would tacckle microsoft if microsoft hadnt repeatedly gotten slaps on the wrist from the EU allready. (slaps that might have bancrupted other smaller firms)

 

[ksn0va]

So... people expect a TOS to be OPTIONAL? When the fark did this happen?

 

[Karadalis]

So... people expect a TOS to be OPTIONAL? When the fark did this happen?

In the EU? Since ever.

See in the EU Corporations cannot make up their own Laws in their Eulas or Tos. As soon as it conflicts with the law of the EU/country the law wins and the Eula/Tos loses... allways.

Thats a fact.

Thought here comes the kicker:

The other side of the coin is that it allways takes someone to sue for the law to be enforced.

Nobody sues? Nothing changes, because obviously.. law is blind.

What happened here most likely is that someone at the Verbraucherzentrale is a steam user and didnt really liked the way you get locked out of your games.. OR that an actual customer went to them and told em about it.

You see the Verbraucherzentrale usually only takes action when someone is actually affected by malpractice. Only rarely do they act on their own accord. But since Valve is a big player in software distribution maybe this time they acted on their own *shrugs*

Oh and ofcourse the action of the Verbraucherzentrale would only have effect in germany itselfe.. not in any other EU country nor the US.

Also the Verbraucherzentrale has the financial backing to actually take big corporations to court if they need to because if i remember correctly they are backed by the state. So no.. Valve cannot simply wave this off. The Verbraucherzentrale is infact a big organizsation throughout germany and not just a bunch of people comming together to fight the good fight.

 

[Burninator]

Kardalis' post is a good post. EULAs are not private law. For the same reason as you can't sell yourself into slavery, companies can't put anything they want into a EULA: The law legally limits the kind of contracts its subjects can enter into. Or, rather, the kinds of contracts that are enforcable.

In Germany, specifically, Paragraphs 305-310 BGB regulate AGBs (general terms and conditions, which End User License Agreements fall under). I can see at least 3 points under which the forfeiture of the right to class action lawsuits is illegal, and it's explicitely stated that a EULA can't contain a clause giving one party the right to unilaterally decline service without a good reason. That means that even if a judge were to rule that valve is offering a service, rather than selling a license, they agreed to provide this servicee without a clear temporal limitation, and unless they have a reasonable cause, they can't terminate at their own discretion.

So yeah, steam's EULA is illegal as fuck in Germany. And it's not just one part; depending on the judgement, the inclusion of a single illegal clause can make the entire EULA invalid. And what's more, under German Business law, the use of illegal EULAs can give competitors a claim against the company upholding the EULA in question, if they can prove that they were at a competitive disadvantage due to the transgression.

And yeah, the german consumer protection agencies definitely have the resources to take on Valve.

So, being german, I don't worry. If valve tries to enforce the latest EULA, or cuts off service, they're just begging to get taken to court.
And since I'm studying law, that just means more work for me. : P

 

[Zortack]

Kardalis' post is a good post. EULAs are not private law. For the same reason as you can't sell yourself into slavery, companies can't put anything they want into a EULA: The law legally limits the kind of contracts its subjects can enter into. Or, rather, the kinds of contracts that are enforcable.

In Germany, specifically, Paragraphs 305-310 BGB regulate AGBs (general terms and conditions, which End User License Agreements fall under). I can see at least 3 points under which the forfeiture of the right to class action lawsuits is illegal, and it's explicitely stated that a EULA can't contain a clause giving one party the right to unilaterally decline service without a good reason. That means that even if a judge were to rule that valve is offering a service, rather than selling a license, they agreed to provide this servicee without a clear temporal limitation, and unless they have a reasonable cause, they can't terminate at their own discretion.

I'm not entirely sure but I believe European laws also prevent us from forfeiting our rights to a class action lawsuit. In which case that part of the ToS wouldn't apply to any EU-citizen, regardless of his nationality.

 

[jklinders]

I enjoy using Steam as a platform but these ToS are odious and threatening to perma deactivate your account is borderline gangster.

It should not be legal to do that under ANY circumstance. Block ability to purchase if you like but they should not be allowed to take access to your purchased content away. Period. Point of fact about ToS and EULAs. They are all subject to the laws and statutes in your own country. Not the country of the company that writes them. Valve does not have a leg to stand on here and they know it.

Get 'em Germany, too bad Canada or the US will not follow suit.

 

[Naeras]

This is good. Someone needed to slap Valve's hands for this.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Valve are arseholes. So if you dont agree you lose your account and games? Ok, maybe block the account from downloading new material till they agree. But to delete everything? Games they have bought and own shows how shitty the future will be with downloadable only gaming. These companies own you and pretty much put a gun to your head if you dont agree. Atleast physical discs you own what you buy.

 

[BeerTent]

I'm a massive Valve fanboy, before and after this TOS change.

But this is still good news. This TOS update, and the forced "Go along with it or else" Bullied many people into agreeing to something they never would have. Myself was included here. It's disgusting, really. I hope this group in Germany changes things.

 

[ResonanceSD]

I'm typically fiscally conservative and am sympathetic to corporations doing what they want with their property... but yeah... this sounds like out and out coersion or extortion...

Games you've bought (your property) provided through our service will be denied to you if you don't forfeit your legal rights when dealing with us.

I suppose its one thing if you hadn't bought into it yet, but taking away what you've already bought with a change in TOS is just down right wrong.

You actually buy a license to play them. You don't own the game.

 

[Imthatguy]

How is something like striping away a customer's right to class action lawsuits even legal? It has to be the most obvious type of strong armed consumer bullying out there.

Fucking good. I'm glad i wasn't the only person pissed off by that. "Agree to not sue us or you can't play online" (PS3) is a very different from "Agree not to sue us or we'll take away everything we sold to you" (steam).

No, you can't give me bullshit about purchasing a license, they don't advertise it as such. They advertise selling a game, their mistake.

Yes, and you clicked a button saying you read the fine print. You may have been lying, but by checking the box saying you've read the license agreement. The same license agreement that says you have to accept any updated version of the agreement or forfeit your right to continue using the Steam service.

It's all spelled out and this is nothing new. If you never read it and are now being hurt by it, that's on you. Now you may be able to argue false advertising and get a favorable outcome there, but Valve taking away your software should you reject a change in the terms of service was already something that was (or would have been had you read the agreement) known to you when you purchased the software.

You can claim it was coercion, but you already agreed to this end result of your own free will before purchasing the software, so I doubt it would stick.

I'm interested to see how this ends up playing out, but as long as the Terms of Service is considered a legally binding document, the most likely outcome is a very angry former Steam user.

I'm not sure which is more insidious; requiring consumers to sign away their rights or asking them to get law degrees and then read through the TOS.

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm not sure which is more insidious; requiring consumers to sign away their rights or asking them to get law degrees and then read through the TOS.

Luckily, neither. Because, in any case, if a contract I enter into does not comply with the laws of the jurisdiction in which I entered into said contract, I am simply not bound by the non-compliant parts. And a degree in law is not necessary to know that, this is cooking pasta, not a 5-course gourmet meal for which I'd need a chef's degree ^^

 

[Imthatguy]

I'm not sure which is more insidious; requiring consumers to sign away their rights or asking them to get law degrees and then read through the TOS.

Luckily, neither. Because, in any case, if a contract I enter into does not comply with the laws of the jurisdiction in which I entered into said contract, I am simply not bound by the non-compliant parts. And a degree in law is not necessary to know that, this is cooking pasta, not a 5-course gourmet meal for which I'd need a chef's degree ^^

Lucky you; Some of us are still stuck in part of the world where our government is owned by big business however.