Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
I have never heard of the term "atheist" being derogatory so I think your just desperately grabbing at anything now trying to prove you were somehow not completely in the wrong. Also saying that there is absolutely nothing rational in any of the religions in the entire world is beyond anti-rational its insanity, as well as bigoted.
To all those angry that Steve Jobs did not do more for the poor with his money, keep this in mind... there are parts of the world where the price of the computer you are seeing this website with would feed a family for a year.
He is not alone in his massive responsibility. The fact that he had an order of magnitude more to give than you do does not change the fact that you, just by merit of being able to SEE this, have an order of magnitude more than those less fortunate than you.
Now, I do not presume to tell you to move into a mud hut and give away all you have to the poor... I certainly haven't or I wouldn't be typing. But until you do, there is always something more you could give, and someone lying in the gutter looking up to you wondering why you haven't fixed everything for them, because you could. Not just one, either... thousands. Enough so that you could give all you have, and it wouldn't be enough... but it would be enough for some.
I guess what I'm saying is, there's a reason that charity is optional, and that it's really easy to look at what someone has and figure that they could do more. And they could, but there's a bottom of the food chain, and if you can see this, it isn't you.
Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
I have never heard of the term "atheist" being derogatory so I think your just desperately grabbing at anything now trying to prove you were somehow not completely in the wrong. Also saying that there is absolutely nothing rational in any of the religions in the entire world is beyond anti-rational its insanity, as well as bigoted.
Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
I have never heard of the term "atheist" being derogatory so I think your just desperately grabbing at anything now trying to prove you were somehow not completely in the wrong. Also saying that there is absolutely nothing rational in any of the religions in the entire world is beyond anti-rational its insanity, as well as bigoted.
"What is something rational preached by religion that is true that science doesn't say too?" So if science says it too it doesn't count? Your a crazy person. Talking to you on this subject is exactly like talking to a racist; their so filled with irrational hate and ignorance that nothing you could say would change their mind. Nevertheless I find Buddhas teachings to be very rational this quote for example works well with our conversation:
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Buddha
I also believe Jesus to be very rational so here is a quote from him:
?Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)"
Jesus
I could give a million more examples, possibly some from Lao Tzu, but I don't think it really matters.
Aw spoot, my ignorance of modern day electronics is revealed again...I was sure Steve Jobs had something to do with iPhones, and they had something to do with Apple...
Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
I have never heard of the term "atheist" being derogatory so I think your just desperately grabbing at anything now trying to prove you were somehow not completely in the wrong. Also saying that there is absolutely nothing rational in any of the religions in the entire world is beyond anti-rational its insanity, as well as bigoted.
"What is something rational preached by religion that is true that science doesn't say too?" So if science says it too it doesn't count? Your a crazy person. Talking to you on this subject is exactly like talking to a racist; their so filled with irrational hate and ignorance that nothing you could say would change their mind. Nevertheless I find Buddhas teachings to be very rational this quote for example works well with our conversation:
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Buddha
I also believe Jesus to be very rational so here is a quote from him:
?Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)"
Jesus
I could give a million more examples, possibly some from Lao Tzu, but I don't think it really matters.
I think you're missing my point. Science brings lots of rationality and knowledge to the world, where religion doesn't. Sure, there's the occasional verse that's all "don't be a dick", but for every one of them there's a hell of a lot of exceptions.
My 'hate' is not irrational. Religion is irrational and nonsensical. None of it has any basis in truth and you have absolutely no evidence to refute me with. Please, if you do, show it to me. I'd be interested to see what you have to say.
Also, scripture means nothing. Just because it has some nice flowery verses in it, doesn't make the thing as a whole rational. I think Buddhism (which, it could be argued, is more philosophy than religion, but that's up for debate and is irrelevant to this conversation) has a lot of positive teachings, and has probably brought lots of happiness to peoples lives, and for that I respect it. I also think that Buddhist teachings are irrational, as they have no basis in scientific truth.
As for Jesus, he too has lots of moral quotes you could reference. But that doesn't change all the horrendously immoral and irrational teachings in the rest of the Bible. You can go cherry-picking scripture to find all the nice bits all you want, and other people can go cherry-pick all the evil parts, thus giving them an excuse to do horrendous things.
An example...
God's enthusiastic endorsement of child abuse.
Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father; or the voice of his mother, and, though they chastise him, will not give heed to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, "This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Explain the rationality of that?
I mean please, you're calling me ignorant and crazy?
You are right with one point. You could quote a thousand verses from all the holy scriptures in the world, but it wouldn't count for anything. None of them are rational. If you find one that makes more sense than science, I will convert. But you won't. Because religion is not rational.
Funnily enough, I picked up on that...I was attempting a play on words. You know, what with apples being a type of produce, and their company being called Apple...never mind.
Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
I have never heard of the term "atheist" being derogatory so I think your just desperately grabbing at anything now trying to prove you were somehow not completely in the wrong. Also saying that there is absolutely nothing rational in any of the religions in the entire world is beyond anti-rational its insanity, as well as bigoted.
"What is something rational preached by religion that is true that science doesn't say too?" So if science says it too it doesn't count? Your a crazy person. Talking to you on this subject is exactly like talking to a racist; their so filled with irrational hate and ignorance that nothing you could say would change their mind. Nevertheless I find Buddhas teachings to be very rational this quote for example works well with our conversation:
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Buddha
I also believe Jesus to be very rational so here is a quote from him:
?Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)"
Jesus
I could give a million more examples, possibly some from Lao Tzu, but I don't think it really matters.
I think you're missing my point. Science brings lots of rationality and knowledge to the world, where religion doesn't.
STARTING HERE: *****1. It's true that science has brought a lot of new knowledge to the world.....are we debating which is better science or religion now? because I thought we were talking about religion and rationality. I myself am a scientist so if your trying to sell it to me I'm already sold. You seem to flop around from subject to subject try to focus on one are two subjects and it will be easier to discuss them.
Sure, there's the occasional verse that's all "don't be a dick", but for every one of them there's a hell of a lot of exceptions.
*****2. In which religion? I think I can safely assume that you haven't even heard of all the religions of the world let alone studied them, so if you mean all religions your making a bold assumption you can't possibly back up. This is not the scientific way to do things.
****Also If you demand absolute perfection from everything or you will go to the very extreme "hatred". Then your in for a very very disappointing ride through life because nothing is perfect. Just like all those religious texts were writing by people who were imperfect so are all our scholarly scientific texts which have been wrong before and will be wrong again. Finding knowledge whether scientific or spiritual in nature is a process were going to be wrong once in a while that doesn't mean we should abandon science or religion.
vMy 'hate' is not irrational.
****3. Hate is always irrational, always.
Religion is irrational and nonsensical. None of it has any basis in truth and you have absolutely no evidence to refute me with. Please, if you do, show it to me. I'd be interested to see what you have to say.
******4. As for religion having no basis in truth, can you even guess to how many plants used for religious healing purposes are now used in modern medicine? This is actually the smallest example I could think of (I don't feel like explaining a bunch of shit you won't really consider anyway.)
Also, scripture means nothing. Just because it has some nice flowery verses in it, doesn't make the thing as a whole rational. I think Buddhism (which, it could be argued, is more philosophy than religion, but that's up for debate and is irrelevant to this conversation)
******5. Because there are several types of Buddhism some being purely philosophical and others purely religious it can't really be argued that it is only one or the other.
*****reference to "scripture means nothing." I have to disagree, this means nothing: egjlsdkjfhlaksdjfhkdjshlfaksjdfhlkajhlkjkdnjbfkaljebfbeubf the quotes I gave you have meaning, whether you agree with the teachings or not is insignificant.
has a lot of positive teachings, and has probably brought lots of happiness to peoples lives, and for that I respect it. I also think that Buddhist teachings are irrational, as they have no basis in scientific truth.
As for Jesus, he too has lots of moral quotes you could reference. But that doesn't change all the horrendously immoral and irrational teachings in the rest of the Bible. You can go cherry-picking scripture to find all the nice bits all you want, and other people can go cherry-pick all the evil parts, thus giving them an excuse to do horrendous things.
An example...
God's enthusiastic endorsement of child abuse.
Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father; or the voice of his mother, and, though they chastise him, will not give heed to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, "This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Explain the rationality of that?
I mean please, you're calling me ignorant and crazy?
You are right with one point. You could quote a thousand verses from all the holy scriptures in the world, but it wouldn't count for anything. None of them are rational. If you find one that makes more sense than science, I will convert. But you won't. Because religion is not rational.
be sure to look up^ the page to where I start writing within your last post.
***6. I knew you would end up picking Christianity as a focus rather than speaking about religion in general as we had began because the truth is you probably know little to nothing about any other religion and your problem is most likely with Christianity, but you have attributed your conflict with Christianity to all religions. That's okay we can talk about Christianity If that makes you feel more comfortable. In regards to the quotes you posted, the rationality of the verses can be found when recognizing the historical context which it was written, who the speaker is speaking to, the culture of the writer, the culture of those the writer is addressing and lastly why it was written. Do I morally agree with physically punishing a child, no I don't but that doesn't mean its irrational. Rational has nothing to do with what is good or moral, and in the end physical punishment is a perfectly logical way to dominate another human being. In fact you could go so far as to say killing the child is the only logical way to make sure it never disobeys you again. See these are not my moral beliefs, I'm a pacifist and abhor violence but logic and morals often are in conflict. I'm not sure if you really understand what rationality really means or your at least attributing meanings to the word that are normally not used. If you want a word that both means logical and morally good I suggest making one up.
Well the term atheist, especially in the context he used it in, was used to portray non-believers of religion in a negative light. So it's about as offensive as me stating that believers of religion are anti-rational, which they are as there's nothing rational about religion at all. So yeah, either we're both offensive or neither of us are.
I have never heard of the term "atheist" being derogatory so I think your just desperately grabbing at anything now trying to prove you were somehow not completely in the wrong. Also saying that there is absolutely nothing rational in any of the religions in the entire world is beyond anti-rational its insanity, as well as bigoted.
"What is something rational preached by religion that is true that science doesn't say too?" So if science says it too it doesn't count? Your a crazy person. Talking to you on this subject is exactly like talking to a racist; their so filled with irrational hate and ignorance that nothing you could say would change their mind. Nevertheless I find Buddhas teachings to be very rational this quote for example works well with our conversation:
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Buddha
I also believe Jesus to be very rational so here is a quote from him:
?Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)"
Jesus
I could give a million more examples, possibly some from Lao Tzu, but I don't think it really matters.
I think you're missing my point. Science brings lots of rationality and knowledge to the world, where religion doesn't.
STARTING HERE: *****1. It's true that science has brought a lot of new knowledge to the world.....are we debating which is better science or religion now? because I thought we were talking about religion and rationality. I myself am a scientist so if your trying to sell it to me I'm already sold. You seem to flop around from subject to subject try to focus on one are two subjects and it will be easier to discuss them.
Sure, there's the occasional verse that's all "don't be a dick", but for every one of them there's a hell of a lot of exceptions.
*****2. In which religion? I think I can safely assume that you haven't even heard of all the religions of the world let alone studied them, so if you mean all religions your making a bold assumption you can't possibly back up. This is not the scientific way to do things.
****Also If you demand absolute perfection from everything or you will go to the very extreme "hatred". Then your in for a very very disappointing ride through life because nothing is perfect. Just like all those religious texts were writing by people who were imperfect so are all our scholarly scientific texts which have been wrong before and will be wrong again. Finding knowledge whether scientific or spiritual in nature is a process were going to be wrong once in a while that doesn't mean we should abandon science or religion.
vMy 'hate' is not irrational.
****3. Hate is always irrational, always.
Religion is irrational and nonsensical. None of it has any basis in truth and you have absolutely no evidence to refute me with. Please, if you do, show it to me. I'd be interested to see what you have to say.
******4. As for religion having no basis in truth, can you even guess to how many plants used for religious healing purposes are now used in modern medicine? This is actually the smallest example I could think of (I don't feel like explaining a bunch of shit you won't really consider anyway.)
Also, scripture means nothing. Just because it has some nice flowery verses in it, doesn't make the thing as a whole rational. I think Buddhism (which, it could be argued, is more philosophy than religion, but that's up for debate and is irrelevant to this conversation)
******5. Because there are several types of Buddhism some being purely philosophical and others purely religious it can't really be argued that it is only one or the other.
*****reference to "scripture means nothing." I have to disagree, this means nothing: egjlsdkjfhlaksdjfhkdjshlfaksjdfhlkajhlkjkdnjbfkaljebfbeubf the quotes I gave you have meaning, whether you agree with the teachings or not is insignificant.
has a lot of positive teachings, and has probably brought lots of happiness to peoples lives, and for that I respect it. I also think that Buddhist teachings are irrational, as they have no basis in scientific truth.
As for Jesus, he too has lots of moral quotes you could reference. But that doesn't change all the horrendously immoral and irrational teachings in the rest of the Bible. You can go cherry-picking scripture to find all the nice bits all you want, and other people can go cherry-pick all the evil parts, thus giving them an excuse to do horrendous things.
An example...
God's enthusiastic endorsement of child abuse.
Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father; or the voice of his mother, and, though they chastise him, will not give heed to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, "This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Explain the rationality of that?
I mean please, you're calling me ignorant and crazy?
You are right with one point. You could quote a thousand verses from all the holy scriptures in the world, but it wouldn't count for anything. None of them are rational. If you find one that makes more sense than science, I will convert. But you won't. Because religion is not rational.
be sure to look up^ the page to where I start writing within your last post.
***6. I knew you would end up picking Christianity as a focus rather than speaking about religion in general as we had began because the truth is you probably know little to nothing about any other religion and your problem is most likely with Christianity, but you have attributed your conflict with Christianity to all religions. That's okay we can talk about Christianity If that makes you feel more comfortable. In regards to the quotes you posted, the rationality of the verses can be found when recognizing the historical context which it was written, who the speaker is speaking to, the culture of the writer, the culture of those the writer is addressing and lastly why it was written. Do I morally agree with physically punishing a child, no I don't but that doesn't mean its irrational. Rational has nothing to do with what is good or moral, and in the end physical punishment is a perfectly logical way to dominate another human being. In fact you could go so far as to say killing the child is the only logical way to make sure it never disobeys you again. See these are not my moral beliefs, I'm a pacifist and abhor violence but logic and morals often are in conflict. I'm not sure if you really understand what rationality really means or your at least attributing meanings to the word that are normally not used. If you want a word that both means logical and morally good I suggest making one up.
I'm not talking for all religions, I know some, if not many religions teach very moral tales, but I thought it would be safe to assume that we would both be talking about the few major ones, not the many small ones, and by that I mean Christianity (obviously), Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc.
I don't expect absolute perfection. I expect logical explanations for beliefs, and by that I mean I think people should be able to logically explain why their beliefs are true (or as close to true as you can get). I believe in no god because there is no evidence for one. If somebody was to believe in a god, I would expect some evidence for one. Scientific theories, even false ones, have evidence for them. Over time the false ones are corrected and we continue to move forward in science. This doesn't happen with religion, which is obvious by the fact that most major religions are thousands of years old.
Hate is not irrational. It's an emotion. You're saying if somebody's daughter is killed because some drunk driver ran her over, they have no logical reason to be angry at said driver? I mean, I know anger is usually not positive but come on, if you have a reasonable reason, it is rational.
Your point about the plants is kind of... irrelevant. I mean, just because a group of people realize that doing such-and-such with whatever plant makes something good happen, doesn't make the rest of whatever those people happen to believe true. If someone who believes the moon landing is a hoax goes 'The moon landing is fake! And also, carrots are good for eyesight' the fact that the carrot statement (as a rough example) is true, does not mean that the moon landing statement is true. So I guess you're right, some religious teachings that are completely unrelated with religion are correct.
Fine, I'll give you this one. The scripture teachings have meaning. They teach you morals etc. However, they have no meaning in a scientific way. You can't say 'the Quran says salt and fresh water don't mix, so that is a scientific truth'. That's not logical at all. That's the point I'm trying to make. Sure, they might tell you to treat your neighbor with respect, which is all well and good, but that doesn't mean that the overall claim that there is a god and he created everything is true.
My problem is not with Christianity, I just used it for my examples because of the statistical chance that you believed in Christianity (this is me taking into account where most users on the Escapist live, and what religions are most prominent in those countries).
My problem is with the misleading nature of religion in general.
You make a good point when you talk of the difference between immorality and irrationality, and you're correct. Scripture is immoral in some verses and irrational in others. This only strengthens my point. You should neither look to scripture for a rational explanation of the world, as it is irrational (in it's teachings of a god, and of heaven and hell), and it is immoral (those two examples are few of many from many different scriptures from multiple religions).
So yes, I did misuse the word irrational. I should have used immoral or another word instead.
However that does not change my overall argument.
May I ask what your religious views are, and what realm of science you work in?
I imagine the comment was fueled by the fact that Mr Jobs was extremely wealthy and never bothered to do anything good with it. The man never performed a philanthropic act in his life.
I imagine the comment was fueled by the fact that Mr Jobs was extremely wealthy and never bothered to do anything good with it. The man never performed a philanthropic act in his life.
His right? Yes, just like it would be my right to sue you if I were to be injured whilst stealing all of your possessions from you home while you slept but that doesn't make it right does it?
He made the technology go further? Really? based on what? All of apples technologies were preexisting techs, their OS's have been YEARS behind the curb.
And it's beside the point. The man had more disposable income than the USA itself and you're telling me that it's morally OK to do NOTHING good with all that power and money In the world that really needs it? Would you feel differently if you were one of the MANY unfortunate people in desperate need of help from those in a position to?
Whilst my previous comment was... in hindsight... Just utterly DUMB...
People seem to think that I am Atheist... I'd like to point out I'm not and that I find that thought amusing lol
I'm sorry to have offended anyone (everyone it seems) it was a completely twatish thing to comment back with although my reasoning behind it was justified at the time looking back I was just being a complete dick towards the other complete dick (I still hold my stance that he was in the wrong for labelling atheists I'm just also admitting I'm in the wrong for labelling religious people in return).
Whilst I come across as a person that is intolerant and unaccepting I actually have friends from all paths of faith from christians, mormons, muslim to atheism... Yes and a few Jedi...
If anything we all enjoy each others company and actually I have had debates about their faiths before. Not to change their minds just to learn a little about each one.
I may seem like a complete wanker (I am so you'd be right) I'm not above saying I was wrong.
I apologise... Not that anyone cares but still I feel like I should take the time to do.
*Edit*
Also I tend to go months without checking any of this so um... Yeahhh)
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