stiffing a prostitute: rape or theft?

[Avnger]

Both. You violated the terms of the sexual consent, which could be considered rape (At the very least it's bad practice), and you failed to provide proper payment for the service, which is theft.

But then what if you pay her eventually? is it rape until you pay, like some kind of Schrodingers rapist situation??

That depends on whether the consent included to knowledge of how long 'eventually' would be. If I dine-and-dash at an expensive restaurant then show up 5 years later and pay them did I still commit theft of service (and technically goods)?

 

[happyninja42]

Ok people, is this really a discussion that needs to happen? It's a pointless question, about refusing to pay for an illegal action, and then trying to claim something illegal was done, and/or having something becoming a crime in itself based on the transfer of money.

This thread doesn't seem to really have any purpose other than to eventually devolve into a toxic spew fest. So really, does this ridiculous and hypothetical situation matter at all? IS it really worth our time anymore to debate it?

 

[Avnger]

Ok people, is this really a discussion that needs to happen? It's a pointless question, about refusing to pay for an illegal action, and then trying to claim something illegal was done, and/or having something becoming a crime in itself based on the transfer of money.

This thread doesn't seem to really have any purpose other than to eventually devolve into a toxic spew fest. So really, does this ridiculous and hypothetical situation matter at all? IS it really worth our time anymore to debate it?

Prostitution is actually legal in a surprisingly large number of countries including much of Western Europe, South America, and Australia along with some areas in Africa, Central America, and the Indian subcontinent.[footnote]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country[/footnote]

Orange: Illegal, Yellow: Legal, Green: Legal but brothels/pimping illegal[footnote]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_law[/footnote]

 

[happyninja42]

snip

Then just check what the law is in your area where it is legal. There really isn't anything to debate if it's legal in your area, and it's still not really debatable in an area where it's illegal.

 

[Avnger]

snip

Then just check what the law is in your area where it is legal. There really isn't anything to debate if it's legal in your area, and it's still not really debatable in an area where it's illegal.

So because something is illegal in one's local area, it shouldn't be discussed? Would that include topics related to any type of drug use in the US due to the federal War on Drugs? If so, you really should dedicate your efforts to telling everyone in states that haven't yet legalized pot (and probably those that have as well because federal laws supercede conflicting state ones) to shut the hell up about it.

edit: I personally live in an area where fireworks are illegal to shoot off; am I not allowed to discuss fireworks?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

My gut feeling? It's theft of service.

This is ofcourse assuming that this a woman who is skilled in her trade, ya know what I mean? Like this is how she pays her bills, not some like naive soul being conned into doing sexual favors for a movie role or some bullshit, cause thats manipulation and rape.

But this is the point of view of someone who 1. Isn't a woman and 2. wouldn't buy a woman... I also don't have a great view of the sex trade either.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

A very shitty thing to do. And a theft.

It's still possible for a paying "customer" to rape said prostitute(doing things she didn't consent to, etc.) so i really dont't think money shall be taken as a deciding factor qualifying for rape.

 

[axlryder]

Guys, I went out of my way to make the op fairly gender neutral in order to keep this conversation as civil as possible and avoid gender bias. I'll clarify by saying there is no reason to assume the prostitute is female.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Generally, regardless of the legality of prostitution I suspect it would in most cases be treated as a civil matter and not a crime at all, like most disputes over payment for services. Where prostitution is legal, workers or their employer would be able to bring civil cases against clients who refused to pay if they could secure the relevant details. This is why most brothels in places where prostitution is legal require payment up front.

If prostitution is illegal, however, it may be possible to bring criminal charges for solicitation.

Obviously, using threats, force or other coercion (but not lying) to either obtain sexual services or avoid having to pay for them is very illegal, and the former is sexual assault.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Refusing to pay the agreed amount for services rendered is theft. Conning someone of right mind into sex is not rape. You can't revoke consent after the fact, otherwise bitter ex-lovers across the nation would be filling the courtrooms every day.

It's true that there is consent but it is conditional consent: the condition being a mutually agreed upon financial transaction. When this condition isn't met there would have been no consent. This is different from scorned lovers b/c there is no preceding agreement that both parties agreed upon before sex. Here consent isn't conditional, but in the case of prostitution there definitely is.

I'd say it's borderline rape. Punishment should probably be a hefty fine and payment of the outstanding sum as well as a record for vice crimes to discourage others from cheating a prostitute. Not that I think solliciting the services of a prostitute itself should be illegal though. Cases like this(lack of legal representation) is actually a good example why making prostitution illegal is bad idea.

Does conditional consent have any sort of legal basis? I've never heard of any cases involving it.

there's 'rape by deception' which is when someone consenting because they thought you were someone else.

Say, a girlfriend follows her boyfriend into a darkened room, sleeps with 'him' only the boyfriend flips on a light to reveal his best friend was in the bed instead of him, and it was all a prank, that would be Rape By Deception. (see also Revenge of the Nerds where the cheerleader sleeps with a nerd because he's wearing a Darth Vader mask like her boyfriend is, and the nerd does nothing to tell her he is not her boyfriend until afterwards)

Interesting. I'm not totally sure it could be used as precedent in this case. Obviously I'm no lawyer, but in a similar case of say, a con artist convincing someone they was a famous star or model and seducing them, only to be revealed later as a liar, would probably not be considered rape. Just sleezy. Maybe I'm wrong though. It just seems like the issue in your proposed case is the fact that she she slept with someone she was unwilling to by deception, not that she was deceived into sex.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

Australian here, where prostitution is regulated and lawful.

Legally, prostitution is considered a service, and refusing payment to a prostitute is theft of services.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Interesting. I'm not totally sure it could be used as precedent in this case. Obviously I'm no lawyer, but in a similar case of say, a con artist convincing someone they was a famous star or model and seducing them, only to be revealed later as a liar, would probably not be considered rape.

You are correct.

The only exception, as far as I'm aware, is lying about your HIV status or other serious STD, which can be treated as rape by deception. There was also a case in Israel where a Palestinian man was convicted of rape by deception after pretending to be Jewish, but I strongly suspect that couldn't have happened anywhere else.

 

[Dragonbums]

Its not rape since both parties consented to the act of sex.
But refusing to pay them for their services rendered is absolutely shitty. Under legal circumstances it's theft and breaking of contract. But since prostitution in most states are illegal you arent going to face any real consequences outside of being an absolute jerk stiffing money from people who are already on the low end of making ends meet. Its pathetic and low.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

It's theft, specifically theft of services.

 

[Michel Henzel]

It's neither, it's called non-payment. There thread over.

 

[Bobular]

I'd say both.

It's kinda like if a woman says she'll have sex with you, but no anal. You then stick it in her ass, you can't get away with it by saying 'Well she consented to sex', there was a condition to that consent and you broke the condition.

Though I don't think it's theft is prostitution is illegal where you are though.

 

[one squirrel]

Theft. Lying to someone to get sexual favors does not constitute rape. If I borrow a Ferrari and a nice suit for a night and convince a woman to sleep with me, because she thinks I am rich, that is certainly a dick move, but not sexual assault.

 

[The Lunatic]

Theft, I guess?

Obviously, hiding or lying about something that could affect consent is really awful, and can reasonably be considered rape, I don't really know if I'd say it is in this case.