Stories in games, an argument against Yahtzee

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Mr.Switchblade

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Yes, we all know Yahtzee loves good stories in his games, and most tend to agree. Some of the greatest games I've ever played have had great narratives. But on the subject of stories being as important to gameplay, I feel like Yahtzee stops reviewing for the everyman, and instead puts his own personal preferences, which people can disagree with without being stupid, in the way of general opinion. To make it easier to read, the following discourse can be read in a few points.

Point 1: Story is great. Great stories make for compelling gameplay. It is unlikely that a game will ever be on your top ten list without some degree of coherent and interesting tale behind it. Half life 2, Bioshock, stuff like that. Many see these as film-esque games and the epitome of what gaming is capable of doing, and I definitely agree. The best games do have good story, BUT, this is not essential to have a good game.

Point 2: Games do not need story: The point that the story is just as essential as gameplay strikes me as not well thought out. It is important to note that video games are much like other forms of activity, such as board games, or sports, in that they provide a steadily increasing challenge in a format of structured rules and boundaries, which provide fun and entertainment. Based on the idea that story is just as important gameplay, that equates a game with no story to only being 50% of a game. For most people, 50% counts as an F, so in this case we can call that a failed game. Looking at games such as chess, I do not get the impression that chess would be incredibly augmented by story, nor that chess fails because it has none. And yes, chess is a video game, you can play it on your computer. Becoming a bit more modern, games like Team Fortress 2, Unreal Tournament 2004, and Civilization, none of which have any significant degree of story, can be excellent games if one cares to play them. Tightly focused and well tuned gameplay drives many exceptional games without the use of story, but it shouldn't be noted that these games, along with many others, offer no real attempt to give you coherent story.

Point 3: Why games with bad story fail: Turning completely around, I want to make the case that games with bad story fail, and heres why; It depends on what the game is trying to accomplish. Games have goals, and the degree to which it succeeds at these goals when delivered to a player makes or breaks it. If the goal of your game is to deliver a challenging puzzle adventure with a clever narrative, and portal is the result, then well done, you've succeeded in every way possible. However, if you attempt to do so again and you get, say mirrors edge, then you've essentially tried and failed to incorporate story as a significant element of your game. Everyone has their own personal preferences about games, but that doesn't make the other person's preference bad. It is all about what makes a game FUN for you. For some, thats a clever story with coherent gameplay, that drives you to complete and master it. For others, its perfected gameplay with a complete absence of story, cause they don't care, and never will, about non-real characters on a screen. You can still have bad versions of each, and I think what Yahtzee, and many others are getting at is games that attempt to do both, and don't particularly succeed in either area, creating a bland half hearted result.

Point 4: Gameplay is still more important: Ask yourself, would you play a game consisting only of gameplay, and no story? Most people would, or have in some form, assuming it does the gameplay aspect well. Now take the inverse, would you play a game that has next to no competent gameplay and fantastic story? Probably not, though i know some will digress. That is for movies, people, not games. I cannot prove this, but I get the impression that people will always weigh gameplay over story, so in short, gameplay and story are not equal. Important both are, but one carries more weight.

Cheers, hope this doesn't offend anyone.

On a additional note: please be aware I am not calling for the end of story in games, I just think gameplay is more important. Try not to be so polarized.
 

Sentient6

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Well, games that have no story and are just gameplay-focused tend to be pretty unmemorable. Yeah, they may be fun (if executed properly), but eventually you move on and forget about them. A good story (or rather a good story in combination with good gameplay) is what makes the game great. It makes you want to play the game that much more - and enjoy it a whole lot more. So yeah, story is not essential for a good game - but it's pretty important for a great game.
 

AfterAscon

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Nov 29, 2007
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Prepare to lose IQ points...

Yes games don?t need stories but they need to foster them and allow players to create their own fantasy or story. Shadow of the Colossus might be an example. You?re told very little, yet the story is about your experience, which can be unique. Great game play in a bland environment won?t do anything for anyone.

I didn't pay any attention to the 'plot' or any sub-plot quests in WoW. Yet my characters and their story through the game is defined by the interactions I had in groups, guilds and with friends. The same applies for other games like modern warfare 2, people remember great and bad games, they associate them with stories. If asked, for example 'your best kill' people don't just tell you how it happened, they probably regale you with everything leading up to that point.

Games without stories still need them, but just indirectly. Wut?

I defy anyone to find meaning in my ramblings...
 

BloodSquirrel

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Mr.Switchblade said:
Point 3: Why games with bad story fail: Turning completely around, I want to make the case that games with bad story fail, and heres why; It depends on what the game is trying to accomplish. Games have goals, and the degree to which it succeeds at these goals when delivered to a player makes or breaks it. If the goal of your game is to deliver a challenging puzzle adventure with a clever narrative, and portal is the result, then well done, you've succeeded in every way possible. However, if you attempt to do so again and you get, say mirrors edge, then you've essentially tried and failed to incorporate story as a significant element of your game. Everyone has their own personal preferences about games, but that doesn't make the other person's preference bad. It is all about what makes a game FUN for you. For some, thats a clever story with coherent gameplay, that drives you to complete and master it. For others, its perfected gameplay with a complete absence of story, cause they don't care, and never will, about non-real characters on a screen. You can still have bad versions of each, and I think what Yahtzee, and many others are getting at is games that attempt to do both, and don't particularly succeed in either area, creating a bland half hearted result.
Games with bad stories fail when the story is an unavoidable part of the game. Ninja Gaiden II's story is awesome simply because it only rolls in briefly between stages to justify why you're going somewhere next in the most absurd, overblown way possible (How many times, exactly, has Ryu's whole clan been slaughtered?). KOTOR's II story fails because it is integral to the game, and so when it sets up expectations that it ultimately can't fulfill, it leaves the player unsatisfied.
 

Scikosomatic

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Mr.Switchblade said:
Yahtzee stops reviewing for the everyman, and instead puts his own personal preferences
.....DUH!!! That's part of the reason he's so outrageous lol
 

The Real Sandman

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Sentient6 said:
Well, games that have no story and are just gameplay-focused tend to be pretty unmemorable. Yeah, they may be fun (if executed properly), but eventually you move on and forget about them.
Pong, Pac Man, Space Invaders, Centipede, Donkey Kong, Defender, Frogger, Galaga, Dig Dug, 1942, R-Type, and Tetris would like to disagree.
 

Sentient6

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The Real Sandman said:
Sentient6 said:
Well, games that have no story and are just gameplay-focused tend to be pretty unmemorable. Yeah, they may be fun (if executed properly), but eventually you move on and forget about them.
Pong, Pac Man, Space Invaders, Centipede, Donkey Kong, Defender, Frogger, Galaga, Dig Dug, 1942, R-Type, and Tetris would like to disagree.
Dude, how long ago those game were made? Seriously, it's like saying telegraph is awesomer then the iPhone because it was in use for a longer time. Games evolve, standards change, and what once was a great game can't compete even with the mediocre games of today.

Except Tetris, that one does rock.
 

Jodah

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To add to the above poster : Civilization is one of the most popular and best selling strategy series of all time and has no real story. Sure you may put it down for a month or two but most people go back after awhile. I've always felt games like that are worth the money more then games you play once for two months straight then never touch again.
 

Byrn Stuff

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I feel that chess and pong form poor analogies because those games are namely about a fairly simple mechanic/game structure. When games reach the developmental point of adding characters, we care about that character's motivation. I feel it's reasonable to ask that the story be at least as developed as the game play. Early games like Dig Dug and SMB don't require extensive stories because the game itself is relatively simple. As soon as you include a three-dimensional character with a number of possible actions, I begin to wonder about this character's motivation and his journey.
 

Noone From Nowhere

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The importance of story relies heavily on the focus of the game. When I think about it, that goes for non-game media, as well.

Seinfeld and Curb You Enthusiasm are very dialogue and character driven series with little in the way of story while something such as, say, Battlestar Galactica (this century's version) and Code Geass are focused upon ongoing storylines. Monopoly and Risk only have one goal: get more than the other guy and keep as much as you can until he is unable to continue. Sure, one is about becoming the biggest baddest captain of industry while the other is about world conquest, but the basic idea is the same.

Games with an emphasis on multiplayer co-op action need little beyond the initial set-up, such as the Left4Dead series or Unreal Tournament while one player epics require a well-told if not entirely original narrative.
William Shakespeare knew that creating an entirely original narrative is largely impossible, listing the framework of essentially every kind of story possible in his time. Of course he would know, with all of his work save for The Tempest being adaptations of earlier stories or history.

Trying to shoehorn in an epic narrative into a thin premise is a serious mistake that creators in every media unfortunately make now and then (which is to say more frequently than not). Do you need 200+ pages of backstory to know why the chicken (or frog) is trying to cross the road?
Somethings do bear more explanation, however. For example:Why exactly is the protagonist killing everyone in colorful costumes/chickens? It isn't immediately obvious and not instinctual, either. That's worth a paragraph, at least.

A quest of a million miles absolutely needs a good justification, one beyond: "Treasure awaits!" or "Kill the bad Guy!"

The importance of stories in games is less a matter of 'Gameplay versus Story' as it is 'High Concept versus Low Concept'.
 

Vohn_exel

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Oct 24, 2008
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I think it's half and half. I love DMC, but even I get bored of hacking up enemies after a while with no real "reason" behind it. I'm probably in the minority but I love a good narritive behind whatever I'm doing.

Games are an experience, and in ways that movies aren't really capable of expressing. Movies are moving books, there isn't really much we can do but sit back and watch the action unfold. But a game is interactive. Even if we know whats likely going to happen, or what is going to happen, we still have the feeling that we're guiding the characters into that direction.

Tetris, chess and the like are actually very similar. They are an exprience as well, but for different reasons. They are great for telling people how great you are at a game, for challenging yourself and friends. However, other games are for thier impact on us all.

You'll get people talking about how they felt when they got CQC hugged, or like an above poster said, will tell you entire tales of how they ended up taking down your last enemy only to realize the man that trained you is infact the person you should've been after all along.

Stories aren't the most important thing to a game, and all in all, I do believe that Gameplay should be the focus. However, I think that Storylines should be the second most important thing. Maybe sixty percent gameplay, fourty percent story, or something like that. I loved "The Bouncer," even though it was almost all story and no gameplay. A good story can make up for mediocre gameplay, and vice versa. I think they should both be given the most consideration when video games are being developed.
 

Soet Poet

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The Real Sandman said:
Sentient6 said:
Well, games that have no story and are just gameplay-focused tend to be pretty unmemorable. Yeah, they may be fun (if executed properly), but eventually you move on and forget about them.
Pong, Pac Man, Space Invaders, Centipede, Donkey Kong, Defender, Frogger, Galaga, Dig Dug, 1942, R-Type, and Tetris would like to disagree.
Did you forget Adventure Island, Arkanoid, Dr. Mario, Burger Time, Cobra Triangle(The Best!) and Duck Hunt?

And in answer to an above post: These games can ALL compete with mediocre games of today. Cobra Triangle is much better than, for example, Turok and Prince of Persia (2008). Gameplay-wise, since NES games had no story to be worth the bother.
 

Thaius

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I see what you're saying, but I don't think Yahtzee is putting his preferences above objectivity in this regard.

It's true that different people want different things out of their games, but Yahtzee sees that video games are a storytelling art medium, and their future is in that focus. The best games are ones that mix gameplay and story together. It's not a matter of one being more important than the other, it's that a truly good modern game will mix both well. Yahtzee, being as impossible to please as he is, is justified in criticizing games to intensely on this standard.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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Story is what separates casual games from the serious ones. Sure, with some games story is extraneous and there is little reason to tack a half-baked one onto it, but when was the last time you had a game of chess where you were totally immersed into the world of... wait, that's impossible because you're clearly just playing a board game in the real world whenever you play chess, even if the chess game you are manipulating is digital.

Stories transform games from amusing little diversions into something far more compelling.
 

MR T3D

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your 4th point seems like the best, i agree and have once or twice brought up that point in a 'review' of a game.
however, i think we need to remember that he is reviewing them for entertainment purposes, and/or that his 'standards' are a world apart from the norm. just don't take him seriously, and its fine.

and i must say i am suprised by the lack of flame here, but, then again, school is in for suckas in N. America.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Byrn Stuff said:
I feel that chess and pong form poor analogies because those games are namely about a fairly simple mechanic/game structure. When games reach the developmental point of adding characters, we care about that character's motivation. I feel it's reasonable to ask that the story be at least as developed as the game play. Early games like Dig Dug and SMB don't require extensive stories because the game itself is relatively simple. As soon as you include a three-dimensional character with a number of possible actions, I begin to wonder about this character's motivation and his journey.
I feel that this sums it up pretty well. But it also depends on the type of game. If I am going to play a puzzle-solving game a story might be pretty irrelevant, after all the puzzles will be there regardless and can be fun and engaging in their own right as they put my logic to the test.
If I am to play a first person shooter however, things are diffrent. Why am I fighting thousands of aliens? Why is my character running off to get the McGuffin and who are all these people following me? This becomes even more pronounced in roleplaying and adventure games where context is very important to what is going on.

I believe that story and gameplay are intrinsically linked to one another now adays. One can exist without the other, but the synergy between the two is what puts them above and beyond just "click Left Mouse Button to kill Alien" or reading a book (even though I like books).
 

JeanLuc761

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Gildan Bladeborn said:
Story is what separates casual games from the serious ones.
I disagree on this point. Battlefield, Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress 2 have little/no story, but I would hardly consider them to be casual games.
 

Sentient6

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Soet Poet said:
The Real Sandman said:
Sentient6 said:
Well, games that have no story and are just gameplay-focused tend to be pretty unmemorable. Yeah, they may be fun (if executed properly), but eventually you move on and forget about them.
Pong, Pac Man, Space Invaders, Centipede, Donkey Kong, Defender, Frogger, Galaga, Dig Dug, 1942, R-Type, and Tetris would like to disagree.
Did you forget Adventure Island, Arkanoid, Dr. Mario, Burger Time, Cobra Triangle(The Best!) and Duck Hunt?

And in answer to an above post: These games can ALL compete with mediocre games of today. Cobra Triangle is much better than, for example, Turok and Prince of Persia (2008). Gameplay-wise, since NES games had no story to be worth the bother.
Again, man, those games are old. And old games cannot compete with any "new" games (unless the game is completely broken, that is).For me, at least. I think that any "great" game is only "great for it's time" and in these times a great game needs a great story to go along with the awesome gameplay.
I know it's largely a taste issue, and a hardcore "retro" gamer will come up with tons of other great games that had little or no story, but still.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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JeanLuc761 said:
Gildan Bladeborn said:
Story is what separates casual games from the serious ones.
I disagree on this point. Battlefield, Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress 2 have little/no story, but I would hardly consider them to be casual games.
Not by the industry definition of the term, no - but at the core of any exclusively multi-player title with no story, you'll find what amounts to a very complicated casual game. It's the difference between a game of 'war' versus playing bridge - the latter is insanely complicated, takes a great deal longer to finish, requires more peopple, involves far more skill... but is ultimately still just a card game where the goal is to get the most points and thus win.

Without a narrative framework to build upon, videogames never leave that casual game level - they just become more complex and interesting casual games.