Stormcloaks are too mainstream.
- Thread starter Evil Top Hat
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Naturally, progress takes time to filter down to the lower orders, that is the basis for society. The trick is delaying it sufficiently that the rabble are satisfied and the Elite are safe. One of the greatest lies you will ever be told is that 'all men are equal'.weirdguy said:
My point is that as corrupt as the Empire's politicians are, the Stormcloaks would, were the allowed to take power, quickly match them for crookedness. The difference between these two cultures lies primarily in what they would do with their power. The Empire over-tax their citizens, exploit their workers and come down like a hammer on anyone who revolts; whereas the Stormcloaks would exterminate Elvenkind, fill the halls of the Jarls with every iota of wealth they could lay their hands on and leave the masses to sort out themselves. With or without a High King, the traditional Nord society is a feudal system and all that would follow a return to this culture is chaos, war and death.
To paraphrase Winston Churchill, 'Dictatorship is the worst kind of government, except for all the others.'
I couldn't agree with you more... other than I haven't read anyone chosing the Stormcloaks at all, but I haven't read many forums till now, since I only just completed the main quest recently.Evil Top Hat said:
Oh and dude, you should so have had a poll here, as in 'who picked the empire / the stormcloaks' would've been very interesting to gauge that.
Points 1, 2 and 4 all make sense, but point 3 (Yes the one with the Spoiler, so stop reading if it will spoil) I don't understand.
- I just killed the bastard, so, where's the peace treaty... oh, unless you mean before the civil war?
The Empire rules till the end! In my Skyrim, we were victorious over those evil Stormcloaks, I'll kill as many as it takes - I'm a Legate bitches, so suck it down!
These are the two points that interest me the most so I thought I'd address them. Firstly, to the idea that the Empire will eventually stand up to the Aldmeri Dominion...I find this unlikely as the war is still going on as the events of Skyrim unfold. The RedGuards have seceded from the Empire themselves and are continuing to fight against the Aldmeri in what we can assume to be quite a bloody conflict and the Empire has done nothing to aid them.Evil Top Hat said:
The problem the Empire has is that militarily it had won a decisive victory at the end of the Great War which forced Peace Negotiations on the Aldmeri but their legions were nearly exhausted by it. This exhaustion led the incredibly generous terms of the concordat and left the two largest human groups in the Legions (Redguards and Nords) feeling betrayed so is it any shock that both of these peoples are now leaving the Empire?
Following on from this without the recruitment from these two most warlike human bands the Legions are fatally crippled and even if they retook both Hammerfell and Skyrim resentment could lead to recruitment remaining pitifully low compared to previous centuries. Who are left really to fight the Aldmeri then? Bretons and Orcs?
As for the final point, I want to say that the hyper-nationalism does make me slightly uncomfortable but I don't think it would make my character in Skyrim feel that way. Remember that what we are looking at in Tamriel is essentially a medieval society where tribal ties of family and race would be considered sacred in the common peoples. This is not the enlightened age of reason, it's a time of fear and darkness when people look out for their friends and noone else.
In that context the language of the Stormcloaks would strike a chord with thousands of Nords allready upset about the apparent betrayl of the Empire. We can't trust the foreigners, we can only trust our own.
I'd consider joining the Stormcloaks if someone like Balgruuf was the leader. Bu Ulfric? No way.Sagacious Zhu said:
lapan said:
The Battle for Whiterun is phased like the other battles during the Civil War chain, none of the citizens are outside during them so there's no chance of death or collateral damage, And choosing Imperial/Stormcloak does not affect the guilds in the game aside from different people you need to talk to for side quests and the like.
I kinda totally agree here... Besides the look of the City, they kinda dicks, maybe it's the whole underdog thingEvil Top Hat said:
Okay. Everyone and their grandmother is quoting me about my Tamriel flub. I know. I know. And also both sides were written so that ultimately neither would really have the moral high ground. Both are assholes, and both state genuine reasons they would be the better rulers.Darth_Dude said:
For one, the dark elves are not Ulfric's people. They're refugees. No refugee community has ever been well-treated in the history of the world. Did you expect him to give the newcomers priority over his own people? Given that he only has control of Windhelm at the start, his resources do not stretch far enough to cover two separate populations. Here in England, despite our supposedly wealthy country, even our immigrants are treated badly by the natives. Immigrants got priority for everything, so people hated it. That just happens. You can't expect Stormcloak to just open his arms for every dunmer that strolls into his city wanting a handout. They GOT their handouts. That slum is what they've made it. If they don't like it, they should have kept walking.Evil Top Hat said:
You're under the impression that the Stormcloaks are doing this out of an emotional hatred for the Empire. They're not. The Empire may have to bow to the Thalmor, but that's because their territories are hard to defend. Skyrim has no such obligation. If the Empire just took their hands off Skyrim, the war would have been averted. The Empire cannot just say "Okay, you can worship Talos.", because then the high elves would most likely commit genocide in Cyrodiil. The capital is being held hostage. However, if the Stormcloaks win, and the Empire is thrown out of Skyrim, they no longer have to enforce the religious laws there, and the Thalmor have to fight a war using their OWN troops in Skyrim. An independent Skyrim would destroy the Thalmor's invading force, perhaps sufficiently weakening their armies for a coalition Hammerfell-Skyrim-Imperial force to make a move on Summerset Isle.
It's not really a spoiler. You find a dossier in a chest where the Thalmor basically say that the civil war is weakening the empire, and therefore Ulfric is a useful Jarl unless he wins the war. Also it states that trying to directly contact him will probably end badly.DPunch4 said:
I sided with the Empire, no questions asked. Who cares that they were going to execute me just because? They were just getting Machiavellian on my ass! I would have done the same thing. A good ruler cannot tolerate rebels.
As quoted from UESP:
Literally translated as "Home of the Elves", the Aldmeri Dominion was an empire that as of 2E 830 made up the realms of Summerset Isle and Valenwood. It was formed when the heirs of the Camoran Dynasty began to fight over the Valenwood throne. A faction of Bosmer attempted to make peace with their enemies in in the Colovian Estates by offering part of the Valenwood territory in exchange for the faction's claimant. The Altmer, upon hearing of this, invaded Valenwood, citing a stewardship clause in a thousand year old treaty [1].
The Altmer established the Thalmor as the government in Valenwood on behalf of their claimant Camoran Anxemes (whose ascendants made the original treaty a thousand years before). As the Empire was still recovering from the Interregnum, the Colovian armies were easily forced back by the Elves and the Aldmeri Dominion was born. The Thalmor strengthened its hold on Valenwood province during the foundations of the Third Empire and Bosmer tribes continued to skirmish with the Colovian Estates under the rule of the High Elves. With the Empire reunited under Tiber Septim the attacks subsided although each side remained encamped on the border waiting for a decisive battle.
At sea, the Elven forces were considerably more powerful and the Dominion was able to hold the southern waters from the Cape of the Blue Divide to the Topal Bay. The Elves made allies with some Reachmen, the Maormer of Pyandonea, and the Elsweyr Confederacy. Although there was no formal declaration of war, Tamriel was divided between the Empire and the Dominion in an unfolding clash of civilizations. The catastrophic use of the Numidium ended the long confrontation, resulting in the surrender of the Summerset Isles and the human conquest of Tamriel. The Dominion would represent the last time the elves of Tamriel ruled sovereign kingdoms on the continent, the final legacy of the Direnni and Aldmer holdings.
Later, in 4E 29, the Aldmeri Dominion was re-established across the Imperial provinces of Valenwood and the Summerset Isles, which were renamed Alinor. Once the Void Nights (4E 98-100) ended, the Thalmor (who govern the Aldmeri Dominion) claimed to have caused the return of Masser and Secunda. The Thalmor also developed a friendly relationship with the former Imperial province of Elsweyr, in the form of two client states (Anequina and Pelletine).
Later, in 4E 171, the Thalmor invaded Hammerfell and Cyrodiil after Titus Mede II rejected their Ultimatum. Aldmeri forces would push deep into both provinces, taking many cities, including the Imperial City. The Thalmor then faced their greatest defeat (later known as the Battle of the Red Ring), in which they lost all of their forces in Cyrodiil. Despite this, due mainly to the exhaustion of the Imperial Legions, the Great War ended with the White-Gold Concordat, which resulted in Talos worship being outlawed in the Empire, and a significant portion of Southern Hammerfell becoming part of the Dominion. However, Hammerfell rejected the treaty and left the Empire, continuing to fight the Thalmor until 4E 180, when the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed by both sides, resulting in the Aldmeri forces pulling out of Hammerfell, and a territorial status quo.[2]
Apparently, the Imnperial's are the good guys - having beaten the elves, but being in a position were they couldn't finalize the victory decided on a Stalemate. If the stormcloak's would stop their revolution and join the empire and Hammerfell, the elves may actually be pushed back.
Literally translated as "Home of the Elves", the Aldmeri Dominion was an empire that as of 2E 830 made up the realms of Summerset Isle and Valenwood. It was formed when the heirs of the Camoran Dynasty began to fight over the Valenwood throne. A faction of Bosmer attempted to make peace with their enemies in in the Colovian Estates by offering part of the Valenwood territory in exchange for the faction's claimant. The Altmer, upon hearing of this, invaded Valenwood, citing a stewardship clause in a thousand year old treaty [1].
The Altmer established the Thalmor as the government in Valenwood on behalf of their claimant Camoran Anxemes (whose ascendants made the original treaty a thousand years before). As the Empire was still recovering from the Interregnum, the Colovian armies were easily forced back by the Elves and the Aldmeri Dominion was born. The Thalmor strengthened its hold on Valenwood province during the foundations of the Third Empire and Bosmer tribes continued to skirmish with the Colovian Estates under the rule of the High Elves. With the Empire reunited under Tiber Septim the attacks subsided although each side remained encamped on the border waiting for a decisive battle.
At sea, the Elven forces were considerably more powerful and the Dominion was able to hold the southern waters from the Cape of the Blue Divide to the Topal Bay. The Elves made allies with some Reachmen, the Maormer of Pyandonea, and the Elsweyr Confederacy. Although there was no formal declaration of war, Tamriel was divided between the Empire and the Dominion in an unfolding clash of civilizations. The catastrophic use of the Numidium ended the long confrontation, resulting in the surrender of the Summerset Isles and the human conquest of Tamriel. The Dominion would represent the last time the elves of Tamriel ruled sovereign kingdoms on the continent, the final legacy of the Direnni and Aldmer holdings.
Later, in 4E 29, the Aldmeri Dominion was re-established across the Imperial provinces of Valenwood and the Summerset Isles, which were renamed Alinor. Once the Void Nights (4E 98-100) ended, the Thalmor (who govern the Aldmeri Dominion) claimed to have caused the return of Masser and Secunda. The Thalmor also developed a friendly relationship with the former Imperial province of Elsweyr, in the form of two client states (Anequina and Pelletine).
Later, in 4E 171, the Thalmor invaded Hammerfell and Cyrodiil after Titus Mede II rejected their Ultimatum. Aldmeri forces would push deep into both provinces, taking many cities, including the Imperial City. The Thalmor then faced their greatest defeat (later known as the Battle of the Red Ring), in which they lost all of their forces in Cyrodiil. Despite this, due mainly to the exhaustion of the Imperial Legions, the Great War ended with the White-Gold Concordat, which resulted in Talos worship being outlawed in the Empire, and a significant portion of Southern Hammerfell becoming part of the Dominion. However, Hammerfell rejected the treaty and left the Empire, continuing to fight the Thalmor until 4E 180, when the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed by both sides, resulting in the Aldmeri forces pulling out of Hammerfell, and a territorial status quo.[2]
Apparently, the Imnperial's are the good guys - having beaten the elves, but being in a position were they couldn't finalize the victory decided on a Stalemate. If the stormcloak's would stop their revolution and join the empire and Hammerfell, the elves may actually be pushed back.
Awesome eh?nut777 said:
It should be noted that, for those who've played the previous TES games, use those experiences and what you've learned about the lore/races/factions etc, to inform your choices and it will make for a more engaging play-through.
Food for thought.
Cheers.
Actually, I was pretty impressed at how much the political situation had changed since previous TES games. It's pretty clear that the Empire of Skyrim isn't the empire you knew and loved in Oblivion...it's a bit ambiguous whether the failing of the Septim bloodline and the White-Gold Concordat are just setbacks for the Empire, or whether the Empire has become a power-hungry meddler interested only in the safety of Cyrcodil, at the expense of the other provinces...remember, Skyrim was pretty much left defenseless during the attack on the Imperial City.Genibus said:
As for myself, I ended siding with the Empire (my character's a Dunmer, so signing up for the Stormcloaks really doesn't make much sense), but I was a bit disappointed that I wasn't given a chance to rethink my position after a couple of missions. Especially after
the Jagged Crown mission, I thought the Crown ought to be handed over to the rightful Queen, Jarl Elsif. Instead Gen. Tullius was just like "OK, thanks", and it became obvious that he really didn't respect Elsif's position at all, as long as she was a good puppet.