Strategy - Should the player know the numbers behind the curtain?

[CrazyCrab]

Hi everyone,
In my current game you as the player are trying to create a ''city state'' and survive in a post apocalyptic world.
You construct buildings, contact other leaders and assign your workers to different jobs.

At the same time decision making is also very, very important and I'm curious if I should tell the player what each choice will affect.
An example would be...

One day one of your creatures finds a copy of the bible and they ask you if God exists.

At this point you have 4 options:
- ''No, God doesn't exists. Everything can be explained with science.''
Effects: Cannot build temples. Productivity and Education increase. May cause bad relations with other leaders.
- ''I am your only God, if anyone tells you otherwise he is lying.''
Effects: Unrest decreases, Additional income in the form of gifts and sacrifices. Happiness decreases if education is good enough.
Temples will provide Wealth.
- ''Yes, he's the quintessence of compassion and understanding. Fear not, for he loves you.''
Effects: Happiness increases. Productivity decreases as your citizens need to dedicate time to religious rituals. Pacifism increases while Militarism decreases. Temples will provide happiness.
- ''Yes, he's the quintessence of power and destruction. Obey him or prepare for eternal pain.''
Effects: Unrest greatly decreases, Happiness decreases. Productivity decreases as your citizens need to dedicate time to religious rituals. Militarism increases while Pacifism decreases. Temples will decrease Unrest.

So, do you think that the player should know what each choice will affect before making the decision or should it only be clear when he or she looks into statistics the day after that?

Before I forget, this won't be an uncommon situation and every choice can win you the game. It will just affect how you win it.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

I know I'd want to know what they did the first time around because I'd be afraid of making a bad choice, so I'd say put in an option to turn the result visible if they want. Or just make sure the player knows that there aren't any bad choices, then it's not needed.

Also, give a small, probably vague description of what each choice does, that should help.

 

[Flammablezeus]

If it's a strategy game, then the results of your actions should be clear. This is how one plans a strategy. You don't make a strategy with decisions you can't know the outcome to.

If it's a role-playing game, then I think the results of the actions should be kept from the player when they're making the choice. Otherwise they're not playing a role, they're formulating a strategy instead. Some people may still choose to play their role, but I know that I get completely taken out of the game when asked to choose between results of actions in a role-playing game. As opposed to being asked to choose between the actions themselves.

 

[Bad Jim]

No-one likes being forced to make uninformed choices in games. Especially strategy games, where knowing the numbers is key to optimising your strategy. Make the mechanics known. Even better, make the source code accessible and set up a wiki, so everything becomes known.

 

[Siyano_v1legacy]

I never really understood hidden info, at some point someone is anyway going to make a wiki about what everything does in the game, so why not just add the info in it in the first place?
Like for example, Binding of Isaac's Trinkets, yeah maybe its part of the "fun" to find what it does, but I don't care, let not play hide and seek, anyway I can look at a wiki!

My 2 cent

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

its pointless to hide that information, people will eventually figure out all the answer and share em, i like the way FTL does it, decision each have a change at a different result, so its all a matter of risk calculation, there are usually not right answers for this


tough i do hate how FTL screws you over if its your first time playing since you dont know what each event will do and what are you risking

 

[Neverhoodian]

People are going to check out the numbers online anyway if you don't, so you might as well save them the trouble.

It may even increase the replay factor if you do. Having players know what each choice results in may incentivize them to try again with a different build for their city state, such as a pacifism run with the "Compassionate God" choice.

 

[StriderShinryu]

its pointless to hide that information, people will eventually figure out all the answer and share em

Exactly this. I can appreciate the desire to make things mysterious but, assuming your game attains any sort of fanbase, it's not going to last anyway. The best option for things like this is to provide the numbers but not make them immediately visible. For example, you could provide a toggle in the options (assuming a videogame) or an extra stat sheet (assuming a tabletop game) so that the players who want to see the numbers can easily see them but those who don't aren't forced to.

 

[Signa]

I'm picturing your game to be basically Civilization. In that case, yes, I need to know what I'm answering. If I wish to RP my time as ruler, then the response could dictate what I'd say over the effect it would have.

As a RPG, picturing the above in terms of playing Baldur's Gate, I don't want to know anything about what I'd be affecting with my response.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I'd prefer a game that didn't tell me what each choice would bring. If you have ever played Virtual Villagers then those events were pulled off well.

However, I can see why it would be annoying to some people.Perhaps you could implement a feature in the game (A seer or something) that you could get to help predict the outcome of each decision.

 

[Joseph Alexander]

the numbers should always be revealed.

that doesn't apply to story and character interaction though, sometimes you need to make a choice and live with the consequences.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Personally I'd rather the effects were hidden, for the benefit of the player who wants to RP or figure things out for themselves. The argument "It's all going to end up online anyway" is an accurate observation, but ignores the sense of discovery that first time players and the community at large will get at release time and eliminates the possibility that there's something no-one's figured out yet. People who want to be completely informed all the time can look at online sources, but people who want a sense of discovery can't hide what's already in the game.

 

[Elfgore]

Your concept sounds quite similar to Tropico, which I believe gives you the stats. I would say put the option of having them. Now I have zero knowledge of programming or designing, so I have no clue if that will add extra time that might add. I personally prefer to have the stats, I don't roleplay in strategy games. Those are called RPGs. Mechaniz3d brings up a good point though, some might want to roleplay and not want to get the numbers.

 

[carnex]

Let's be reasonable. Most gamers will not go online to do the research. And part of the fun can be to do exploring of consequences. But unless turnaround it quick like in rogue like games a vague description could prove beneficial. Like for example "pious citizens will live in blissful ignorance through the love of a beneficial god" or "terrified people will do whatever it takes to avoid wrath of god"

 

[Smooth Operator]

Display all the numbers and your game will never be considered more then a math sim, if that is the thing you want then go right ahead. If however you want some semblance of setting or story then most of the info should come in narrative form, explain the effects in a way that makes sense for the people in that universe.

 

[L. Declis]

Why not just build in an RPG mode and a strategy mode? One tells you and one doesn't. Let them choose.

 

[CrazyCrab]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback.
The game is somewhat strategy / RPG since it has features of both games, I probably should've mentioned that. Basically every day you have to ensure that your city has enough of everything, but your main goal is building a space shuttle by finding bits of technology which are scattered all over the world using an elite squad.
Anyway, I think that giving the player a choice will be perfect since it will make everyone happy and given that you have a lab assistant in the form of a robot I guess that he can ask you if you want him to run a simulation or if you want to make the decision using your instinct.
Does that sound alright to you?

 

[Thyunda]

One day one of your creatures finds a copy of the bible and they ask you if God exists.

I know this is not what you were asking - but why the Bible? There's nothing in it that would convert you if you weren't told it was the holy book of Christianity. A post-apocalyptic civilisation with no recollection of the time before, in a world without Christianity, would likely treat the Bible like any other fictional book it encountered. I'd find a more encompassing way of justifying the question.

Your responses also lack real choice. The options are "no, science." "No, authoritarianism." "Yes, he's nice." "Yes, he's mean."

What about "He is not the true Lord", or "I do not believe he exists, but there are things we have yet to understand."?


In answer to the question though, Crusader Kings II has a delay when you mouse over options to see what they do, so players who want to roleplay their way through the choices can opt to click without hovering, and players who want to know the effects can take their time with it.

 

[Jandau]

Information should be provided simply because you can't expect players to be able to guess your reasoning in the context of game mechanics. A better question would be, HOW MUCH INFORMATION SHOULD YOU PROVIDE. For instance, do you say it reduces Unrest or do you say it reduces Unrest by 3 (or whatever numbers are appropriate). Basically, do you simply state which game mechanics will be affected or do you specify the extent of the effect in game terms?

Simply stating has more of an RPG feel to it and feels less "game-y", however a big factor is how much of a part optimizing your city plays. If it's more about broad strokes decisions, then less info might be OK, but if there's a major aspect of managing the various stats, players will be annoyed if they can't see the numbers.

Also, using Unrest as an example, if there's an actual number representing Unrest somewhere in the UI, then hiding information would simply be bad design - the player can look at the number before and after the decision anyway, you are just making a chore out of it instead of informing him about the specifics of the decision before him.

On the other hand, if you keep most numbers "under the hood", then showing the player a number that he has no context for is pointless. If the player is simply informed that the population is happy or is getting restless or whatever, and the exact numbers relating to that are not available, then telling him something will give him +3 Unrest isn't helpful. Is that a lot? What's the scale? Is high Unrest bad or good (the number could, for instance, represent your ability to deal with Unrest, in which case more would be better)?

So to cap it of, provide players with information, but make it appropriate to the rest of the game, its mechanics and the UI.