Superman and now Captain America. Why so much dislike for being "overpowered"?

[zerragonoss]

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See, but you're wrong because Vibranium. And with that, your entire argument is utterly demolished. Somewhere in the universe this element exists that appears to break Newtonian laws. Maybe the material is bound with a quantum teleportation polarity reversing newtron reverser.

Thank you for bringing that up, I thought I was just about out of things to nitpick, and thereby amuse myself.

There are exactly 98 elements found in nature, no more, no less. The table goes up to 118, but all elements on that upper end are increasingly unstable. The last of these, Ununoctium, exists for less than a thousandth of a second before radiating a proton away and becoming a different element.

This is not to say that other elements cannot exist, that is patently untrue. but there is indeed a problem. Elements are defined by the number of protons they have, and there is no room in the middle of the list for any more elements. Any and all new baryonic elements would have at minimum 119 protons, would be lethally radioactive, and would only be able to exist in its current form for even less time than Ununoctium does.

Their is no room with our current understanding of elemental structure, but its not to hard to open up a lot of space if you account for different subatomic particles. Any way just look at the name vibranium, I feel likes its mostly supposed to work by converting the kinetic energy to sound and vibration. Using some kind of ripple mechanics where the energy is pushed towards the back of the shield pulled out to the sides then back up and towards the center allowing a repeat till it dissipates kinda like fancy microscopic hamster wheel. Not supper plausible but it makes some sense.

 

[Reiper]

It is not in and of itself. I'm just having too much fun with the science lesson to let it go.

lol except its not a science lesson, no one here actually thinks Vibranium is real. You are just coming across as a condescending something AND you have simultaneously derailed the thread.



Back to Cap and superman though, although we have generally agreed that cap is not overpowered, they are actually interesting to compare. I am certainly no expert, but from what I can tell they seem to be morally quite similar. However as others have mentioned, the reason superman is disliked is because his powers trivialize most challenges. Often he himself is not in mortal danger, but rather the bad guy is holding something hostage.

Cap on the other hand is more interesting because he is somewhat "underpowered", compared to a lot of the foes he faces. It makes the threats seem more dangerous, and he is an easier character to relate to. It is fairly easy to envision ourselves as Steve, a regular guy with a big heart receiving a special serum to make him buffed up. I would argue his strength of character benefits from his lack of strength, at least of the physical kind.

I hope they do cap justice in the new movie. What I really like about him is that he embodies America. Not necessarily what the country is, but the idealized concept. He represents freedom, choice, tenacity, righteous defense and strength of spirit. I did like the line from the trailer "I thought the punishment usually came after the crime", which shows what cap might think of some of the things in the world today.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Well I never felt like Superman was too OP in Man of Steel for example, mainly because most of the time he was actually "outmanned" by Zod's soldiers in smallville, and then almost outpowered by Zod himself in metropolis.
Not to mention a lot of little details in how he flies that make him feel more "human". Most of his flights mid-fights resulted in him crash landing, it really feels like even he is not capable of fully controlling his own power at that point.

New 52 and by extension Man of Steel is probably the weakest Superman has ever been in any continuity since the golden age, really. Until recently his powers were based solely on solar radiation, meaning as long as he was near a yellow or blue sun he was at his full strength. Having Earth's own environment and lesser gravity contribute to his strength means that in an alien atmosphere like, say, Apokolips, he'd be much less powerful.

I agree that Cap is definitely NOT OP. He's not even as strong as Spider-man, and Spider-man is like them middle-ground of Marvel heroes. And, strictly speaking, Superman is not really OP either relative to the DC universe. Plenty of villains can put him through the ringer, and not just the ones that are magic-based or have access to kryptonite. I'm not saying Supes isn't strong or that he isn't one of the strongest there is, because he is. But OP? Nah.

 

[Heronblade]

It would have to come from a reality with radically different physical laws, all the way down to the quantum physics level.

Regardless of what it was before, it would either behave according to the laws of this universe once it arrived, and/or be completely impossible for us to interact with it.

That's just super lame sounding, that's about it.

"Well, see, it came from an alternate reality where Vibranium exists, but it actually doesn't do shit here."

Wow, that's a huge waste of space in a narrative driven by super-natural physics-breaking objects and beings. Woo.

Sorry, but that's just the way it (theoretically) is. Either it will behave according to the local rules, or it will not. In the former case, it would just be an unusual collection of subatomic particles that will soon collapse into a more normal pattern. In the latter case, the most likely result is something like dark matter, material that we can barely tell exists at all.

It might be possible for it to carry its own sliver of its own reality with it and by so doing keep its abnormal properties, but even if such is indeed possible, predicting the consequences of carrying around an object that constantly tears the fabric of normal spacetime is a wee bit beyond me, and more than a little frightening.

 

[tzimize]

I don't understand how Captain America is overpowered. Like, at all.

He really only has 2 powers, his super strength, and his above average healing ability, and the second one isn't anywhere on the level of someone like Wolverine or Deadpool where it makes them pretty much invincible.

In fact, I would say out of all the superheros with powers, Captain America is probably one of the least powerful over all, especially in a universe with characters like Doctor Strange.

Yep.

Captain America is boring because his character is boring. Like Superman. However, Superman is an alien so he's god that going for him. The only time I've enjoyed Captain America as a character is in the Civil War arc in the comics. That was brilliant. The Confession was one of the most powerful comic books I've read.

 

[EyeReaper]

I think the only way the good captain can be considered op is because he has a magical shield that can block everything, including Mjolnir, the Hammer of Thor. Cap isn't op, his weapon is.

Now that I think about it, what would be op would be someone like Thor wielding Captain America's shield. The strength of the guy who (according to my very limited comic knowledge) picks fights with the Hulk, has a magic lightning hammer, and invincible shield? that's gg man.

 

[KazeAizen]

Because overpowered characters ruin any sense of tension. "Oh no, Superman has to fight Lex Luthors two unarmed thugs. I'm really on the edge of my seat now." It's okay if the opponent is equal, if not stronger, than the hero. It's also okay if the writer is brilliant and uses an overpowered character to make a statement (Dr. Manhattan). Otherwise the writer risks creating a Mary Sue character. A character like Superman is okay, but some writers take it to comical lengths. Superman survives getting smacked by two stars? Superman ties a bunch of planets together and carries them through the universe? At that point his powers border on self parody, except it's played completely straight. Taken that far it's just as bad as Batmans "shark repellent." Actually it's worse, because that was SUPPOSED to be funny. Superman can be good when kept in check though. The animated series was great, and it had one of the greatest finales of all time.

Superman's biggest problem is not that he's too good or too powerful but rather he's given to writers who don't know what to do with him half the time or don't give a shit. Which him being my favorite superhero of all time and seeing him get all this scorn these days pisses me right off. Heck I'm hoping that Man of Steel 2 will fix all this. Then again it probably won't....especially if Frank Miller worms his way in there.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

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See, but you're wrong because Vibranium. And with that, your entire argument is utterly demolished. Somewhere in the universe this element exists that appears to break Newtonian laws. Maybe the material is bound with a quantum teleportation polarity reversing newtron reverser.

Thank you for bringing that up, I thought I was just about out of things to nitpick, and thereby amuse myself.

There are exactly 98 elements found in nature, no more, no less. The table goes up to 118, but all elements on that upper end are increasingly unstable. The last of these, Ununoctium, exists for less than a thousandth of a second before radiating protons away and becoming a different element.

This is not to say that other elements cannot exist, that is patently untrue. but there is indeed a problem. Elements are defined by the number of protons they have, and there is no room in the middle of the list for any more elements. Any and all new baryonic elements would have at minimum 119 protons, would be lethally radioactive, and would only be able to exist in its current form for even less time than Ununoctium does. It kind of makes it difficult to use.

Ah yes, but this is only necessarily true in THIS universe/reality. Maybe the vibranium came from somewhere else and just managed to make itself at home.

It would have to come from a reality with radically different physical laws, all the way down to the quantum physics level.

Regardless of what it was before, it would either behave according to the laws of this universe once it arrived, and/or be completely impossible for us to interact with it.

But given that the laws of another universe could be absolutely anything, those laws could include a law that makes it act on it's own laws, one of which is a law that says it can interact with us.

 

[2xDouble]

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Are you really gonna nitpick the nature of the fictional extraterrestrial metal/element, Vibranium, for not following real-universe laws of physics? Marvel's Universe, Marvel's rules, which for the kind of Vibranium in Cap's shield goes; it has the ability to absorb all vibrations in the vicinity as well as kinetic energy directed at it. The energy absorbed is stored within the bonds between the molecules that make up the substance. As a result, the more energy vibranium absorbs the tougher it becomes, however, there is a limit. Then there's the "proto-adamantium" (unique to the shield), that's mixed in as well, which is slightly different than true adamantium in that it's stronger than the latter, though both are nearly indestructible (and also completely fictional).

Is there any explanation as to how Captain America moves the shield, if it is impossible to impart kinetic energy on it? Is it only the front that is reflective? I'm genuinely curious!

OT: I'm not sure. The most overpowered being from comics I can think of is Dr. Manhattan, and he was still a compelling character, in my opinion.

Consider another physics (at least Newtonian physics)-defying material: cornstarch. Cornstarch resists impact in direct proportion to the force being applied; the stronger the applied force, the greater resistance it provides. Conversely, weaker, low-energy impacts pass through cornstarch with ease. Cap's vibranium shield is similar in nature, resisting bomb blasts and super-powered impacts with ease, but still capable of being tossed around by what is essentially an Olympic-class discus thrower. (Yes, theoretically, low-energy forces could pass through vibranium, but the threshold is such that anything low enough energy to do so would hardly be any threat; simply deflected and blocked outright).

Vector and angular momentum play a big part in this too. Notice that Cap always throws the shield horizontally, like a frisbee, but blocks using the shield's broad side. "Naturally," you might think, "considering that's how a shield (and frisbee) is supposed to work", but throwing the shield horizontally does more than allow it to cut through the air and generate lift with its face. The horizontal posture changes the vibranium's resistance vector so it is perpendicular to the ground, thus stabilizing it in flight, as opposed to stopping it cold. This would increase the aerodynamic lift while simultaneously counteracting it perfectly for sustained, level flight and extreme resistance to forced changes in elevation as long as the shield is moving fast enough... sort of like an airfoil spoiler on a sports car. Throwing the shield accurately, with sufficient force to do the damage it's capable of, and on sufficient trajectory so ricochets will return it to Cap eventually, is a whole other can of worms... something, as Moviebob pointed out recently [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/moviebob/10705-Lets-Watch-the-Captain-America-The-Winter-Soldier-Trailer.3#], is Marvel canon as "pretty much only Cap can do it".

In answer to the other question, "why doesn't Cap still break his arm?" is mostly in the nature of Vibranium. Vibranium reacts to impact such that the energy is transmitted across the shield, as opposed to being absorbed into or transmitted through the shield. Ordinary shields accomplish this with angular deflection (which Cap's shield also has thanks to its rounded shape). Vibranium, like cornstarch or even ordinary water, generates vibration (hence the name), or waveform motion on impact, causing the shield to wobble and hum instead of permanently deform... like ringing a bell or bouncing something off of a jell-o mold. Now, this vibration, in magnitudes such as Cap absorbs on a regular basis, would still shatter a normal human arm (even more spectacularly than the original impact would, I might add). But, Cap has two added benefits: his superhuman strength (with implied increased density and resistance to impact) and his enhanced recovery abilities. Cap may not be able to regenerate his arm being cut off, like some other Marvel characters who shall remain nameless (because he preferred it that way, until recently), but his enhanced recovery should be more than capable of healing through a thousand tiny cuts.

PS: Yes, I made up deduced most of that. If there's a more official source or answer, I'd love to see it too.

 

[KazeAizen]

Well I never felt like Superman was too OP in Man of Steel for example, mainly because most of the time he was actually "outmanned" by Zod's soldiers in smallville, and then almost outpowered by Zod himself in metropolis.
Not to mention a lot of little details in how he flies that make him feel more "human". Most of his flights mid-fights resulted in him crash landing, it really feels like even he is not capable of fully controlling his own power at that point.

New 52 and by extension Man of Steel is probably the weakest Superman has ever been in any continuity since the golden age, really. Until recently his powers were based solely on solar radiation, meaning as long as he was near a yellow or blue sun he was at his full strength. Having Earth's own environment and lesser gravity contribute to his strength means that in an alien atmosphere like, say, Apokolips, he'd be much less powerful.

I agree that Cap is definitely NOT OP. He's not even as strong as Spider-man, and Spider-man is like them middle-ground of Marvel heroes. And, strictly speaking, Superman is not really OP either relative to the DC universe. Plenty of villains can put him through the ringer, and not just the ones that are magic-based or have access to kryptonite. I'm not saying Supes isn't strong or that he isn't one of the strongest there is, because he is. But OP? Nah.

People who often write for Supes I think don't know what to do with him or don't give a damn....or try to give him a bad name *coughs* Frank Miller *coughs*. I think the weakest version of Supes is still the animated series and Justice League version. I think part of the reason people are bringing up this OP card, especially for Cap., is that they don't like their character. The character of being the epitome of goodness and justice. Probably because they don't believe anyone can be like that ever. I'm about ready to say "screw you" to those people if they keep this up because I'm getting so god damn tired of their seeming worship of characters like Iron Man (an asshole) or Batman (a psychotic and insane thug). I like both characters too myself but when characters that focus on the positives of people and society are constantly degraded and said to be inferior to psychotics, assholes, and psychotic assholes I get a little angry. *rant over. sorry*

 

[Reiper]

I think the only way the good captain can be considered op is because he has a magical shield that can block everything, including Mjolnir, the Hammer of Thor. Cap isn't op, his weapon is.

Now that I think about it, what would be op would be someone like Thor wielding Captain America's shield. The strength of the guy who (according to my very limited comic knowledge) picks fights with the Hulk, has a magic lightning hammer, and invincible shield? that's gg man.

Nah I think it would be more OP if cap had the shield and the hammer. The hammer would give him all of Thor's powers, and I would argue that if both of them were in a depowered state of equal strength, cap is probably a better fighter.

I have to say though, that pic above of superman with the shield and hammer would be pretty OP. Though would superman be "worthy"? (probably, but it would be funny seeing him try to pick it up if he wasnt)

 

[Blaster]

The only way Captain America could EVER be considered overpowered, is if you considered his "peak human physical condition" to be overpowered. He's basically the very best representation of human potential, at least physically. Granted he wasn't always like that, since he was once just a very patriotic and scrawny kid who just wanted to fight the Nazis. His tenacity and drive made him become Captain America, with a little super-soldier-serum help. He just used his ability to be the best that he could be (the Army's "be all that you can be" jingle/slogan rings in mind head as I'm writing), which made him a legend in Marvel Mythology. Even when he's temporarily replaced, its still generally believed, that HE IS Captain America.

Tell me you wouldn't charge into a fight with this guy on your side.

Or at least in front of you-that's a dang nifty shield he has there.

 

[Blaster]

I think the only way the good captain can be considered op is because he has a magical shield that can block everything, including Mjolnir, the Hammer of Thor. Cap isn't op, his weapon is.

Now that I think about it, what would be op would be someone like Thor wielding Captain America's shield. The strength of the guy who (according to my very limited comic knowledge) picks fights with the Hulk, has a magic lightning hammer, and invincible shield? that's gg man.

Well in current Marvel comics, Cap has been shown to be worthy of lifting Thor's hammer, and his shield is currently part made of the metal the Norse blacksmiths use in their weapons (like Mjolnir), in addition to its classic vibranium.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Because with great power comes great lack of resourceful solutions to difficult problems. Neither Superman not Captain America are all that interesting to watch.

 

[Mid Boss]

Are you really having a long drawn out debate over the physics behind a made up material set in a universe where a person can grow five times their size and turn green when they get mad and another guy can shoot lasers out of his eyes?

Seriously?

 

[Vegosiux]

I think because such portrayals, in a way, imply that real work that normal people do is kind of worthless and inconsequential, if not sometimes portraying the "mere mortals" as downright incompetent or even as uncivilized savages who'd stand no chance without the flavor superhero of the month constantly saving their asses. I know, I know, MST3K Mantra/Bellisario's Maxim and all, but I'm a cynic.

The reason I'm okay with Batman is that he doesn't make a show of his business (it's for the same reason I dislike his Bruce Wayne alter-ego; such an obnoxious playboy and showoff). Iron Man on the other hand, tho...is there a single scene in which he's not basically going "Hey, look at me, look at meeeee!"?

 

[Sandjube]

I just don't like either of them as characters overmuch, especially aesthetically. A guy with his underwear on the outside, and a walking american flag. Lovely.

 

[EyeReaper]

I think the only way the good captain can be considered op is because he has a magical shield that can block everything, including Mjolnir, the Hammer of Thor. Cap isn't op, his weapon is.

Now that I think about it, what would be op would be someone like Thor wielding Captain America's shield. The strength of the guy who (according to my very limited comic knowledge) picks fights with the Hulk, has a magic lightning hammer, and invincible shield? that's gg man.

Nah I think it would be more OP if cap had the shield and the hammer. The hammer would give him all of Thor's powers, and I would argue that if both of them were in a depowered state of equal strength, cap is probably a better fighter.

I have to say though, that pic above of superman with the shield and hammer would be pretty OP. Though would superman be "worthy"? (probably, but it would be funny seeing him try to pick it up if he wasnt)

I think Thor could take Cap in a fight, even if they were both at equal strength. I mean, then it would just boil down to who's the better fighter right? Thor has more experience, what with being a hundreds of years old Norse God and all, and he probably has a better fighting style. That's all speculation though, I'm not really a comics fan, so I'm just going off google searches and personal bias

And yes, it would be hilarious to see Superman fail at lifting something, however unlikely it is

 

[Callate]

I don't have a problem with Captain America; as many others have said, he's just a highest-end-of-normal human with a really good shield. Anything above and beyond that just comes from being a hero in a story about heroes- he's as vulnerable (or not) as any other hero in an action movie. (Or comic, I suppose I should add.)

But there's two problems with a hero like Superman- and I say this noting that I've enjoyed me some Superman, now and again.

One- the number of things that can be sent against him and pose a serious threat tends to be narrow and contrived. We've really only got... Kryptonite; other similarly super-powered beings; and magic.

By this point, the "super smart" last son of Krypton really ought to be able to see Kryptonite coming a mile away. I mean, literally; his vision is that good, and sees through things. Situations that work around that require really spectacular writing not to seem ridiculous, and Supes rarely gets that writing. The "equally powerful super-beings" begins to seem ridiculous just because either they all coincidentally end up in the vicinity of Superman, or there are apparently so many of them that the Earth-ordinary human begins to look like the exception, rather than the rule. And magic? Without hard and fast rules, magic does whatever the plot requires, a trap superhero comics fall into far too often anyway.

All this without the fact that Gold- and Silver- Age writers in the past have been far too willing to give Superman whatever additional abilities he needed to make their latest "threat" even more laughable. Now he builds androids! Now he performs chemistry that evades Nobel Prize winners! Now he does "super-knitting"...! Eugh.

Two- Superman requires threats on a god-like level, rendering every smaller story going on around him ridiculous. I read the 52 saga a while ago, and it very much brought such issues of scale to mind. "These characters are dealing with a threat that could destroy the world! These characters are struggling with a threat that devours entire galaxies! Meanwhile, John Henry struggles with his rebellious niece..."

...who gives a s$#@...?

These are the kinds of situations that the best writers struggle with making readable, and even they tend to burn out if you ask them to keep at it for too long. One begins to wonder, with worlds and galaxies at stake, how the apparently immortal and nigh-ominpotent Superman doesn't end up thinking of individuals like Lois and Jimmy as little more than hamsters in terms of both their utility on a universal scale and their grand importance in conflicts that could cost thousands, if not millions, of lives. The occasional "personal" Superman story begins to seem increasingly ironic. "How nice that you're having dinner with your girlfriend... Isn't their a train wreck somewhere you could be preventing?"

 

[Blaster]

I don't have a problem with Captain America; as many others have said, he's just a highest-end-of-normal human with a really good shield. Anything above and beyond that just comes from being a hero in a story about heroes- he's as vulnerable (or not) as any other hero in an action movie. (Or comic, I suppose I should add.)

But there's two problems with a hero like Superman- and I say this noting that I've enjoyed me some Superman, now and again.

One- the number of things that can be sent against him and pose a serious threat tends to be narrow and contrived. We've really only got... Kryptonite; other similarly super-powered beings; and magic.

By this point, the "super smart" last son of Krypton really ought to be able to see Kryptonite coming a mile away. I mean, literally; his vision is that good, and sees through things. Situations that work around that require really spectacular writing not to seem ridiculous, and Supes really gets that writing. The "equally powerful super-beings" begins to seem ridiculous just because either they all coincidentally end up in the vicinity of Superman, or there are apparently so many of them that the Earth-ordinary human begins to look like the exception, rather than the rule. And magic? Without hard and fast rules, magic does whatever the plot requires, a trap superhero comics fall into far too often anyway.

All this without the fact that Gold- and Silver- Age writers in the past have been far too willing to give Superman whatever additional abilities he needed to make their latest "threat" even more laughable. Now he builds androids! Now he performs chemistry that evades Nobel Prize winners! Now he does "super-knitting"...! Eugh.

Two- Superman requires threats on a god-like level, rendering every smaller story going on around him ridiculous. I read the 52 saga a while ago, and it very much brought such issues of scale to mind. "These characters are dealing with a threat that could destroy the world! These characters are struggling with a threat that devours entire galaxies! Meanwhile, John Henry struggles with his rebellious niece..."

...who gives a s$#@...?

These are the kinds of situations that the best writers struggle with making readable, and even they tend to burn out if you ask them to keep at it for too long. One begins to wonder, with worlds and galaxies at stake, how the apparently immortal and nigh-ominpotent Superman doesn't end up thinking of individuals like Lois and Jimmy as little more than hamsters in terms of both their utility on a universal scale and their grand importance in conflicts that could cost thousands, if not millions, of lives. The occasional "personal" Superman story begins to seem increasingly ironic. "How nice that you're having dinner with your girlfriend... Isn't their a train wreck somewhere you could be preventing?"

I agree that DC writers tend to "adapt" Superman to any given situation, and he's more of cosmic player. Only the intergalactic threats seem to be of any threat, and DC usually has some kind of crossover event to drive the story anyway.

I'm not a Marvel fanboy (at least I like to think I'm not one), but Marvel tends to "cripple" or "handicap" characters with power levels like Superman.

Take this guy for example (the dude in yellow with the snazy S on his belt)

The Sentry is basically the equivalent of Superman in Marvel Comics, but is so insanely powerful, he's afraid to use them, or even go outside. Allegedly, he's also schizophrenic and has a split persona, which further serves to handicap him. He has to actively maintain control over his powers or he could destroy the world. Half the time, he winds up fighting other superheroes who're trying to curtail his powers when they flare out of control.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Superman is so busy being Superman that he doesn't have the ability to be human like the rest of us, which just makes him really hard to relate to be honest; he doesn't have any "mortal" flaws to speak of.