Suspending the Election

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Specter Von Baren

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I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Either way, you've just reduced the IQs of everyone reading this thread.
I described to you why socialism worked for hunter gatherers societies and why that system does not work when applied to the kinds of giant societies we live in today. All trying to force the kinds of systems we used back then does is break down the ones we have now into the systems we used when we left those hunter gatherers societies.

You know about Rome. You don't think that shows what happens when a society keeps trying to turn its republic into a welfare state? Socialism is not new, it is not the next step, it has been used when it was good, in small societies, but it does not work on a large scale unless you want a fuedal system again.

I want humanity to move forward and stop repeating itself, so stop feeding into these ideologies that make us spin our wheels and help thinking up a way to make a new system.
 
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tstorm823

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Okay, so you say socialism is pooling societal resources for any function. So let's take a state with ruler who has absolute power over everything. He organises the state by appointing deputies who oversee chunks of land, who together with the ruler comprise the government. The government collects money from society by making people work the land and handing over a chunk of their production. Societal production then pools in the hands of the government, so that they can spend it on castles, jousting tournaments and reconquering Jerusalem. Oh hang on, that's feudalism.

In other words, you've written a load of hot nonsense there.
"There are many varieties of socialism and no single definition encapsulates all of them, but social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms. "
"Social ownership is any of various forms of ownership for the means of production in socialist economic systems, encompassing state ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, common ownership and collective ownership."

Yes, pooling societal resources is the common element of socialist systems. It is the defining property.

Here's the obvious point you're missing comparing to feudalism: feudalism isn't just an economic system. It's a specific social system designating an order to society from the Royalty downward. Would I say all feudal systems are socialist? Of course not. Typically, the property did not belong to the state, it belonged to a single person. But were there feudal socialists who advocated for socialism to stop the capitalist class from infringing on their established order? Hell yeah, there were.
 

Silvanus

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Hunter gatherers are socialist societies that then become societies of farming and property that then must pool resources which leads to central control by a single figure that then turns into things like kingships which then turned into our current society of mutual cooperation but individual freedom from a single oppressive regime.

Your ideology does not work in large societies.
You're not even remotely describing my ideology, and you're not even remotely describing socialism. You don't actually really have a grasp of what it is, and you don't seem willing to engage with any explanation given.
 

tstorm823

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You're not even remotely describing my ideology, and you're not even remotely describing socialism. You don't actually really have a grasp of what it is, and you don't seem willing to engage with any explanation given.
To roughly quote a former user: "socialism is just sharing things!"
 

Agema

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You know about Rome. You don't think that shows what happens when a society keeps trying to turn its republic into a welfare state?
No, not least because Rome isn't remotely recognisable as a welfare state. It had corn laws to try to ensure the poorest were fed because otherwise they were inclined to riot.

Socialism is not new
It's about 150 years old. That could be viewed as old or new, depending on perspective.

it is not the next step, it has been used when it was good, in small societies, but it does not work on a large scale unless you want a fuedal system again.
Small hunter-gatherer societies were not socialism any more than ancient Rome was capitalism. Which is to say, there are certain parallels that can be drawn - similarities in certain forms (such as social arrangements and ownership systems) which can be used to illustrate concepts - but they're not really the same thing.

* * *

How can socialism work? Not necessarily via government diktat. The aim is to increase pay. The government could do it centrally by setting salaries (e.g. minimum wage), but it can also empower labour unions and let the workers fight for themselves (why else do businesses and right-wingers spend their time trying to restrict unions?) It could do similarly by mandating worker representation on corporate boards, again giving workers the means to fight for themselves. More potently, it could mandate that a significant and minimum proportion of corporate shares must be owned by workers, thereby giving the workforce some ability to both profit from and control the company, seeing as they part-own it. It could encourage the creation of co-operatives, and so on. Thus there are many ways government can achieve socialistic policy by empowering people rather than itself. It is these sorts of things that modern socialists more look at. Bar the tiny remnants of Stalinist / Maoist cranks, basically no-one wants the USSR back any more.

* * *

Places end up as autocracies or authoritarian basically because of instability and some sort of catastrophic imbalance of power, which may or may not be economic. The collapse of the Roman Republic is essentially that of social political instability where the major players increasingly understood that the newly-created professional army held the final say, and thus increasingly reached for to settle political disagreement. Imperial Rome was the logical end point: under the veneer of legitimacy, just a military dictatorship. It's not really anything to do with "capitalism" or "socialism" or "welfare" - it was just a grubby, winner-takes-all power squabble between different nobles. Capitalism can and will end in the same for the same sorts of reasons of imbalance and unchecked power-seeking.

To this end, one thing you can look at is something called "neofeudalism", which is a theorised point our modern capitalism may reach. The increasing concentration of wealth ownership in the rich, who extract rents from the poor; the capture of government by the elites and corporations, who then also make the law preferentially work for them, decreased social mobility, and so on. It's quite plausible.
 

Agema

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Here's the obvious point you're missing comparing to feudalism
I'm merely noting your previous definition of socialism was so hopelessly loose and garbled, it could be used to describe feudalism.

Honestly, don't bother trying to define socialism to me. I've got - as I've said before - a perfectly respectable encyclopaedia definition of it posted in the thread that looks pretty good, full of sources and so on. Why would I give a damn about you trying to pass off one-sentence descriptions as meaningful things to hang arguments off?

I mean, the basis of your argument here is "I refuse to even look at a halfway decent explanation of socialism, and so on the basis of gratuitous ignorance, I disagree". What do you want for that? A prize?
 
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Mister Mumbler

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While I disagree with Nazi Germany being socialist, I am please that nobody has felt the need to point out that it's in the name.

Show of hands, how many people were expecting to have to point out that NK's official name has "Democratic" in it or something?

*raises hands*
To be perfectly honest, I almost did the whole 'if you think Nazi's are socialist because of the name, then NK is a model democracy' shtick in my previous post but, like you said, thankfully no one has gone there, and plus I felt my post was just snippy enough as is.
 

Specter Von Baren

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No, not least because Rome isn't remotely recognisable as a welfare state. It had corn laws to try to ensure the poorest were fed because otherwise they were inclined to riot.


It's about 150 years old. That could be viewed as old or new, depending on perspective.

Small hunter-gatherer societies were not socialism any more than ancient Rome was capitalism. Which is to say, there are certain parallels that can be drawn - similarities in certain forms (such as social arrangements and ownership systems) which can be used to illustrate concepts - but they're not really the same thing.


* * *

How can socialism work? Not necessarily via government diktat. The aim is to increase pay. The government could do it centrally by setting salaries (e.g. minimum wage), but it can also empower labour unions and let the workers fight for themselves (why else do businesses and right-wingers spend their time trying to restrict unions?) It could do similarly by mandating worker representation on corporate boards, again giving workers the means to fight for themselves. More potently, it could mandate that a significant and minimum proportion of corporate shares must be owned by workers, thereby giving the workforce some ability to both profit from and control the company, seeing as they part-own it. It could encourage the creation of co-operatives, and so on. Thus there are many ways government can achieve socialistic policy by empowering people rather than itself. It is these sorts of things that modern socialists more look at. Bar the tiny remnants of Stalinist / Maoist cranks, basically no-one wants the USSR back any more.

* * *

Places end up as autocracies or authoritarian basically because of instability and some sort of catastrophic imbalance of power, which may or may not be economic. The collapse of the Roman Republic is essentially that of social political instability where the major players increasingly understood that the newly-created professional army held the final say, and thus increasingly reached for to settle political disagreement. Imperial Rome was the logical end point: under the veneer of legitimacy, just a military dictatorship. It's not really anything to do with "capitalism" or "socialism" or "welfare" - it was just a grubby, winner-takes-all power squabble between different nobles. Capitalism can and will end in the same for the same sorts of reasons of imbalance and unchecked power-seeking.

To this end, one thing you can look at is something called "neofeudalism", which is a theorised point our modern capitalism may reach. The increasing concentration of wealth ownership in the rich, who extract rents from the poor; the capture of government by the elites and corporations, who then also make the law preferentially work for them, decreased social mobility, and so on. It's quite plausible.

I hate doing this kind of thing but let me link to an episode of a podcast, because it is a nice 13 minute long condensed version of what I mean.


Does that not sound really fucking familiar? Give me your vote and I'll give you all this stuff. What are so many of our current politicians if not patrons? This pursuit of socialism isn't ownership by the people, it's becoming clients of patrons. Getting people like fucking Bernie, in charge won't put the breaks on oppression, it'll only accelerate the car off the cliff. The way to fix so many of these problems is to empower people, not make them clients of the state, but that's exactly what the Left has been doing, they don't give a damn about minority races or immigrants, they want them to remain poor and for more of them to come in so they can get more votes and more power. Meanwhile the right is doing what you describe at the end of your post. Neither of these sides is helping and I hate that no one seems to see what's happening, they just want to make the side that they're against as the sole cause of the problem.
 

tstorm823

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Well, that's at least a wee bit more accurate than "socialism is just pooling things together".

Notice how I changed the bolded part in your source. The important part is not pooling resources, but ownership of the means of production. That's a far cry from "we put our resources together", because it means that in some way the workers own the means of production...
Nope. Read the rest of the sentence. There are more ways than one to define a society, "workers" is not all of them. "state ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, common ownership and collective ownership", those are not all "worker ownership". State is not the workers, citizens is not the workers, your description is built on the narrow dictates of communism. Socialism is broader than that.
I'm merely noting your previous definition of socialism was so hopelessly loose and garbled, it could be used to describe feudalism.
I agree. It can describe feudalism sometimes. Socialist feudalism is within the realm of options. Which is ultimately one of the big failures of communists employing socialism in the 20th century. They had this idea that the elimination of capitalism would necessarily flow society away from all forms of oppression. They hand-waved away the idea that despots could use their economic system just fine. That's why this is important. You're following in those footsteps, rejecting that a socialist system can be used for different goals than equitable distribution of power, and that's wearing horse blinders.
 
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tstorm823

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And yet again you both betray your dishonest rhetoric, refusing to engage with the argument and instead pivoting to a semantic detail, and your lack of understanding of socialism. Workers is socialist parlance for the people who use the means of production to make goods as opposed to those that own the means of production, which I laid out in the very post you replied to. So either your ability to understand these basic tenets and arguments of socialism is very subpar or you're employing some Olympic level acrobatics to avoid having to engage with arguments that totally refute your patently false idea of what socialism is.

Oh, this will be great. Go right ahead and tell me how a society which wants to abolish privileged classes can be feudalistic. Go right ahead, make my day.
You really don't get it. You're talking about one specific conception of socialism, specifically the conception employed by communists. You are narrowing the word to only what you want it to be and not the broad economic concept that it is. There is no requirement in socialism that privileged classes are abolished. That's communism. They aren't synonyms.
 

Trunkage

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You really don't get it. You're talking about one specific conception of socialism, specifically the conception employed by communists. You are narrowing the word to only what you want it to be and not the broad economic concept that it is. There is no requirement in socialism that privileged classes are abolished. That's communism. They aren't synonyms.
That's what its not. What is it?

Communism had certain segments of its philosophers arguing to have pro-privileged class. Lenin for example
 

tstorm823

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That's what its not. What is it?

Communism had certain segments of its philosophers arguing to have pro-privileged class. Lenin for example
Yes. And Leninism is a word, its own thing. The idea being that the priveleged class would exist to push through the transition from capitalism to socialism, and then do a complete second transition from authoritarian socialism into communism (a different kind of socialism). The stage at which socialism is established by that empowered class is explicitly not yet communism.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Capitalism = you own your dildo
socialism = everyone shares one dildo
fascism = dildo gets used on you
feudalism = the king gets everyones dildo and allows local rulers to have smaller dildos
 

Agema

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Does that not sound really fucking familiar? Give me your vote and I'll give you all this stuff.
???

Isn't that just politics: "Support me and I give you want you want"?

That might be capitalist tax breaks for the rich, socialist welfare for the poor in democracy. It's a king keeping his nobles on side by promising them titles and land. An autocrat keeping the army on side by buying them more funding. And so on, ad infinitum.

What are so many of our current politicians if not patrons? This pursuit of socialism isn't ownership by the people, it's becoming clients of patrons.
Well, patronage had a special, sort of formal place in Roman society that doesn't really exist in our modern societies. But similar processes exist. When someone donates to a politician's election campaign, they're buying a little bit of that politician, making him a "client". A politician may in turn help a police officer rise through the ranks and expect favours back. This isn't just politics, it is social life itself: a huge web of networking, back-scratching, favours, friendships: anyone stops to think, they'd realise they're doing it in ways too.

Getting people like fucking Bernie, in charge won't put the breaks on oppression, it'll only accelerate the car off the cliff. The way to fix so many of these problems is to empower people, not make them clients of the state, but that's exactly what the Left has been doing, they don't give a damn about minority races or immigrants, they want them to remain poor and for more of them to come in so they can get more votes and more power.
That's your opinion, okay.
 

MrCalavera

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Capitalism = dildo gets used on you
Capitalism = you pay subscription fee for using a dildo.

EDIT:
Socialism = everyone gets a dildo, but it's one color
Fascism = hope you like pegging
Feudalism = only the rulling class gets dildos, but it contains relics of a saint
Absolutism = the dildo is you
 
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