Sweden Moves Towards Gender Neutrality [Support Thread]

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Hagi

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Loonyyy said:
Hagi said:
Loonyyy said:
Good work guys. You've managed to turn a request to avoid the moaning and flaming into your motivation to moan and flame.
That's kinda what happens when you make a silly request like that...
Sure.
This isn't on the people complaining about that, this is on the OP. If he hadn't made this request half the complaints in this thread wouldn't exist (and no, they wouldn't be replaced by other complaints. Do you honestly believe anyone with something to say is going to refrain because of some silly extra note in the OP?)
I disagree. I think it is entirely on those making the complaints. And no, I don't think they'd be replaced by other complaints, since, as is obvious, they're already slipping in.
A request like that is simply inviting complaints.
And the CoC is simply inviting me to call other users trolls, to disrepect people, to be a jerk, etc. My comparison's grossly exaggerated, but I think you get the point. Asking people to keep it polite and on topic shouldn't be a problem, and that they were asking for it because people can't keep it civil is just absurd. And the comparison to other sentiments should be obvious. However, I won't derail further by going into that(Especially since that's a gender war all of it's own). If those people make the complaints, it's on them. The OP has washed their hands of it.
If people want to complain they will complain, regardless of whether you like it or not.
Of course. I don't think that should stop someone from hoping people are willing to be reasonable though.
Adding in a request explicitly asking dissenting opinions to not be voiced means you not only get those dissenting opinions but you also get a ton of people arguing against you for free and open discussion.
Sure. But at least you've good grounds to complain when people have no interest in discussing the topic than bringing their tired gender-wars into your thread.

And anyone who makes the criticism about free and open discussion is being foolish. As pointed out in the OP: They're entirely welcome to make their own thread, or even make their own thread that's about the gender war they want to start. Which might save this one an early grave from the lock of doom.
They're also completely free to voice their criticism in this thread.

Because... you know... there's a pretty clear and obvious difference between the CoC and a silly request from another user.

See the CoC is by the people who actually own these forums and all the threads in it. This is their place. So it's their rules.

The OP does not own this thread. That's the entire purpose of a forum, a place where anyone can voice and share their opinion and thoughts on any topic. You can start a discussion on any topic but you don't control that discussion, as soon as the topic starts it's out of your hands.

The OP's request goes against the entire point and spirit of a forum. Therefore I can see it as nothing other than a silly request of which the sole purpose, probably unintentional, is to serve as flame-bait.

And he's not asking people to stay polite, that'd be fine. He's explicitly asking people not to voice opinions contrary to his own, that's just stupid and asking for all the complaints he's getting.
 

Busard

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Nov 17, 2009
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Jesus, this really is the generation of the spineless and the oversensitive

"We rather not want to have equality with the freedom of our individualism, let's just dump everyone into a grey social blob where no differene is allowed. PRAISE SOCIAL JUSTICE"
 

trollnystan

I'm back, baby, & still dancing!
Dec 27, 2010
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Sunrider84 said:
My thoughts have already been summarized after my previous reply, so I'll point you towards them instead of rehashing it again. (I can do that if someone calls what I'm doing here a cop-out, I just don't see the need to have several posts say the same things over and over).

MBergman said:
What did follow the whole debacle was a mob of uptight, self-righteous and self-appointed guardians of equality that treated the word as holy and would downright harass you or accuse you of being sexist if you neglected to use it. As if general useage of it will solve all sexist problems. With that said there's been ridicolous over reactions from the other side as well, people have thrown major fits just because their kids were being taught the word. (though some daycares apparently forced the kids to use it, which I don't agree with)

The whole thing just blew waaaaay out of proportion, but that's Sweden in a nut shell. Find an issue that's actually really trivial and then just devote all your energy to that instead of focusing on real problems, in an effort to seem like you really care about some issue (sexism in this case). Because if there's something a Swede is really scared of it's seeming like he or she is not politically correct.

As someone mentioned, there's several other languages that already have gender neutral pronouns, if they would have just said something like "Here's this nifty new word, use it if you want to!" and not tried stuffing it down peoples' throats, things would have just gone smoother. And less annoying. Just to emphasize though: I'm not opposed to this word, I think people just treat it as something it's not.
Larcenist said:
It is not the word in itself that is stirring up all the anger in most people in Sweden, had it only been a word for someone to use should they feel it appropriate in the context then it would be fine. The thing is that most people that use "hen" are either political profiles or extreme feminists (the latter which are the ones who made the word synonymous with angry rant topic).

We are no longer at the point where you can utilize the word if you want, we are at the point where you are a misygonist piece of s**t should you use him/her rather than "hen" when speaking to someone who's even remotely feministic.
These two, as I said, sum up my opinions nicely. While I realize I'm working off anecdotes here (what else can you expect? We're influenced by our experiences after all), I've been faced with these situations often, which is probably why I come off as someone vehemently opposed to the idea when this is not the case. I agree with your "let's go find your friends" example, and I don't mind it whatsoever.

And yes, slippery slope arguments are dangerous, which is why I said I don't like using it, but again, considering how ridiculous the entire situation with our crossing signs became, I get a bad taste in my mouth whenever I read something about this topic.

As a final note, judging your colleague by just one comment might be a bad idea, but he sounds like a jackass, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. I dressed up in girl's clothes a couple of times when I was a kid too. I grew up with three sisters and my mother, as my dad was often absent for work. Most kids do this, it doesn't mean shit for their sexuality.
Ha, no refer away! Why would that be a cop-out? Silly internet peoples!

The crossing sign thing was AWFUL, I agree. They could have done a much better job of it. For one thing the original sign was a cute little pun, for another they could have just made her look more like the lady on the public toilets, put some up here and there all quiet like and most people wouldn't have give a shit. But they needed to politicise everything, not to mention the dreadful design they finally chose for her.


The new design is better, but still it's too late; shitstorm flew through and filled everything with shit and rage.

Things would be so much better if politicians stopped latching onto good (or awful) ideas others might have just to try to bolster their own ratings. ARGH. Hate politics.

And yes, my colleague was an asshole. He talked shit about everybody behind their backs.

My brother grew up surrounded by sisters and also wore dresses as a kid when playing dress-up, but he's never been interested in boys; well, apart from that time he was at sea for 6-8 months in the navy without shore-leave when his all-male crewmates started to look damn fine-- but we don't talk about that.
 

chadachada123

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It's cool that the Swedish language has such a small difference between their two gender pronouns that a healthy neutral one could happen. Hen seems pretty well between han and hon.

English doesn't really have such easy splits, and any new neutral word will, at least for awhile, be quite clunky. I'm vehemently opposed to "they" being used because of possible ambiguity in plurality, and "it" would be opposed by most people (but would be my choice if I had absolute say).

As for what we should do in the English language (socially, at least, since I don't think anything should be done on the legal front to control language)...On the one hand, like the words actor/actress and waiter/waitress, I don't see an issue with one term being neutral and the feminine term being specific. Or vice-versa. I see no issue with language assuming gender so long as it is the norm to do so.

On the reverse side, my writing professor suggested that, in our essays, we alternate genders when using hypothetical examples, because saying "he or she" or "him and her" would get very old very fast. She wasn't opposed to using a single gender throughout, but felt that it flowed better. She, like me, discourages using "they" as a singular. In common language, this is a bit more difficult to do, but I think it works well enough as long as no one gets overly defensive about their assumed gender being wrong when there was no way for the other person to know ahead of time.
 

Sunrider

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Nov 16, 2009
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trollnystan said:
Ha, no refer away! Why would that be a cop-out? Silly internet peoples!

The crossing sign thing was AWFUL, I agree. They could have done a much better job of it. For one thing the original sign was a cute little pun, for another they could have just made her look more like the lady on the public toilets, put some up here and there all quiet like and most people wouldn't have give a shit. But they needed to politicise everything, not to mention the dreadful design they finally chose for her.


The new design is better, but still it's too late; shitstorm flew through and filled everything with shit and rage.

Things would be so much better if politicians stopped latching onto good (or awful) ideas others might have just to try to bolster their own ratings. ARGH. Hate politics.

And yes, my colleague was an asshole. He talked shit about everybody behind their backs.

My brother grew up surrounded by sisters and also wore dresses as a kid when playing dress-up, but he's never been interested in boys; well, apart from that time he was at sea for 6-8 months in the navy without shore-leave when his all-male crewmates started to look damn fine-- but we don't talk about that.
Here is where I wish sarcasm had its own font!
Now get your ass on steam every now and then, will ya? I know you hate my guts, but it's been ages since we talked!
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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As far as I'm concerned, the goodness of the re-introduction of the word depends on how it's used.

If the Swedish language has no parallel to "what did they (singular) say?", then the re-introduction of the word can be helpful.

If "han" and "hon" fall out of use and everyone becomes "hen", that doesn't seem useful, and possibly somewhat insulting.

At any rate, I don't think English has any need of a similar word. We already have "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun, and it covers most situations adequately. The only time it wouldn't work would be if you're talking to someone who's gender you can't figure out, but that would mean that any new introduced word would translate to "sir or ma'am", and would be equally insulting. So... you're kind of screwed on that one regardless of gender-neutral pronouns.
 

nepheleim

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Darken12 said:
Since I know how these types of threads go and I don't want to see it locked because people can't tolerate divergent opinions, I have one thing to politely request of everyone:

[HEADING=3]If you vehemently disagree with gender deconstructivism and its goals, please hit the back button or close the tab. You are completely free to start your own thread on the matter to bemoan these terrible news.[/HEADING]

[HEADING=2]This thread is intended as a positive take on the matter. It is not intended to condemn or derogate these practices, but to show our support. This is a positive thread. If you oppose these practices, please create your own thread for that. Thank you.[/HEADING]
So.... if anyone has a divergent opinion they have to go elsewhere because you say other people can't tolerate divergent opinions? Intolerance of intolerance or some such thing?

To be clear, I don't give a solitary damn what people want to call themselves or each other, I just thought that was an odd request. Also, threads are supposed to support discussion, and it's not much of one if only people who agree with each other are allowed in. That's how things like Fox News happen.
 

Larcenist

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Apr 22, 2011
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Desert Punk said:
Ok I just had a thought..

is there a specific word for female chicken in swedish? Or is it just the normal "hen" because that word would still be feminine while trying to be neutral..
The Swedish translation of hen would be "höna" if that's what you're meaning.

The thing is that I have just come to the conclusion that people in general hate you regardless of how you call them in Sweden. Han/hon/hen, no matter which one you pick someone will nag at you. I've had people file complaints at work when I spoke to them calling them "ni" (insert mandatory Monty Python joke here) which is the Swedish equivalent of a formal "you".
 

BlazeRaider

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Dec 25, 2009
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I think that's a useful word, often times in english you need to refer to someone whose gender you either do not know or has not been established yet, then you have to use that clunky "him or her" or "he or she" phrase.

"Then all 'he or she' has to do is press the big red button"

I hate saying that phrase, it disrupts my sentence flow for the sake of political correctness T_T
 

James Crook

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Jul 15, 2011
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Good! Now we'll get more books with gender-ambiguous characters for Sweden!
No, seriously, this is good news. Always great to add neutrality to language, for equity's sake namely.
 

Mangod

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Feb 20, 2011
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Off topic: The swedish name for "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" is "Män som hatar kvinnor" (trans: Men who hate women). If we were then to apply this gender neutral term it would become "Hen som hatar hen"... which just sounds silly.

On topic: I've never understood the need for this term. Most people identify themselves partially by gender. If it's about transgendered people feeling discriminated, then wouldn't it just be easier to refer to them by teir own preference (i.e. men who identify as female will be refered to as female). I really cannot see the need for a completely gender neutral term, unless your name is Metatron.

 

Product Placement

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Jul 16, 2009
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Wait... Swedish didn't have a standard gender neutral pronoun until just now? That's so fucking weird. Icelandic has had one since... well... always, as far I can tell and these two languages share a common ancestry.

-Five minutes of googling later-

...Oh, I see. Apparently Old Norse used the word "sá" as a definite article. Originally all encompassing, like the English definite article "the", it was eventually broken down in Icelandic into "sá/sú/það" (masculine/feminine/neutral). The Icelandic pronouns eventually received a similar treatment, giving us "hann/hún/það".

Sorry. I'm a language nerd.
 

Slyaap

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Casual Shinji said:
Gender neutral words and toys!? Wha-... why?

When did it happen that being called 'he' or 'she' is suddenly not done?

Looks like worldpeace can only be achieved by forcing everyone to be the same. No distinction, no flavor, just a saltless grey society.
I love this about internet forums. If you read a thread long enough someone will say exactly what you are thinking. And this is one of my worst fears, a world where everyone is too afraid not to be P.C.

I have to admit, while I'm not against this idea I don't understand the point. Is it for ease of use, that everyone is the same? Or is it so no-one is offended? I'm 34 and I don't feel like I get the world anymore sometimes.
 

Darken12

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I will address specific questions and points of interest at a latter date, just getting the urgent stuff out of the way ASAP.

TacticalAssassin1 said:
In other words, no dissenting opinions allowed. How interesting.
Dissenting opinions are fine, provided they do not devolve into flame wars that end up with the topic locked. Saying "I don't really agree with this" is fine, inflammatory posts are not.

nepheleim said:
So.... if anyone has a divergent opinion they have to go elsewhere because you say other people can't tolerate divergent opinions? Intolerance of intolerance or some such thing?
Divergent opinions are fine, provided they are stated politely and do not devolve into flame wars that force moderator lockdown. If you are unsatisfied with that arrangement, you are more than free to create a thread of your own, and append the [Flame Thread] tag at the end.

nepheleim said:
To be clear, I don't give a solitary damn what people want to call themselves or each other, I just thought that was an odd request. Also, threads are supposed to support discussion, and it's not much of one if only people who agree with each other are allowed in. That's how things like Fox News happen.
Discussion is allowed, within the parameters I described above. If you are unsatisfied by the parameters, feel free to create a thread that is more to your liking.

HannesPascal said:
Thing is my mother is a preschool teacher and she claims that this has taken the form of half-arsed, unclear lecture just like when it was decided that the education (including preschool) was going to be more entrepreneurial.
It's definitely possible that the execution leaves much to be desired, and can be summarily improved, I agree.
 

Larcenist

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Froggy Slayer said:
Swedish didn't have an analogue for the word 'they' before? How silly.
Sure we have. Subjective third-person plural personal pronoun: "De". We also have the usage of "man" which could in a way substitute for the English usage of "one" (something many posters have written the Swedish language does not provide).

One does not have to...
Man behöver inte...

While not a direct translation the substance will be the pretty much the same.

That being said, Swedish is a silly language.
 

Product Placement

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Mangod said:
Off topic: The swedish name for "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" is "Män som hatar kvinnor" (trans: Men who hate women). If we were then to apply this gender neutral term it would become "Hen som hatar hen"... which just sounds silly.
What? No. That's not how it works. Basically, what the Swedes did was introduce a word that can work as a gender neutral alternative for "him/her", which in English is "it". The Swedish title of that story is "Men who hate women", just like you said; not "He who hate her", which in Swedish would be "Han som shater hon".

Your argument is essentially that since there's now a gender neutral pronoun, the Swedes would now replace all their nouns with this new pronoun. Isn't that essentially a Smurf language?