Sword Art Online and sexual assault as tension(spoilers for SAO II)

[Maraskeen]

I think it could be said that Kirito attacked Sugou and Sinon's friend for himself because his anger would be satisfied after doing so or because he wanted to see those men in pain. I never felt the writer's were making his actions out to be heroic. Kirito, despite his thoughtful, caring demeanor, has some real anger and he seems to always see his grudges out to the end. Asuna, Sinon, Klein and the others see him as a hero because he saves them and appears to act entirely out of loyalty to his friends. Is that the truth behind his actions? I don't know.

I don't think the situation was supposed to be as ambiguous as you described it, at least in Season 1 - Kirito's violence and anger, when it was showed, was showed in a positive light, or, at least not a negative one (the whole "Beater" speech, his offing of Kuradeel, his duel with Kayaba come to mind.) Granted, this was changed with Season 2, with Kirito acknowledging the Lauging Coffin excursion, and even questioning his own right to be this hero. It was an interesting direction to take. I actually really liked the beginning of Season 2, and not only because of the layout of GGO, which is why this feels so much like a throwback to me.

Back to rape though.
Do writers need to create better characters so that their identities aren't reliant on the same type of events and situations? Yes.
That being said, is it wrong for a would-be victim of rape, who has tried but cannot escape on his/her own, to be saved by a character who is meant to be portrayed as a hero? No.
Does saving a person from sexual assault make you a hero? To most people, not all.
Does it earn you the gratitude, respect or admiration of the would-be victim? Most likely.
Is gratitude, respect or admiration the same as being considered a hero? Not at all.

On this, we pretty much agree. I don't think having the hero saving a character from a threat of rape is inherently wrong, it's the execution that I find terrible. (nevermind the fact that two times is NOT the charm.) GGO has shown iteslf to be more self-aware than ALO, so there's still hope for the next episode, but I'd hate to see it having no consequence other that Sinon's eternal gratefulness to Kirito becoming her dominant trait, when the series spent so much time making her into a somewhat developed character)

Can that action reinforce his identity as a hero? If you are aiming at the "most people" demographic.
Can a character's reputation of hero allow him to do morally ambiguous things hoping the audience will let them slide in his case? Absolutely, that is human psychology 101.

If you dislike Kirito's actions being excused just because he saved Asuna or Sinon, get over it. People let those things slide because they think heroes "earn" that right.

So, because most people enjoy Hero-Building 101, (which they do, you're right about that) we should ignore the reasons why we individually don't, and accept a poorly pieced-together rape scenario as being fictional necessity? I understand your reasoning, but, as a person, I cannot agree with that last part.
Of course, that's ultimately not a big deal, it's just a shonen series that had a shot at popularity, but just because most people like something doesn't necessarily make that thing good.

 

[VanQ]

Christ. If you don't like it then don't watch it. And why expend so much effort to convince people that like it it's bad? You don't like it, that's great. You've spent 5 pages and several days of energy trying to convince people that it's problematic.

Allow me to illustrate just how ridiculous the entire thing is to you.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

ASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASANASADASAN

And you know as well as I do how ridiculous it is to make such a big deal over this.

And no, I'm not saying that rape is ridiculous or not to be taken lightly. Just go watch Game of Thrones. That show is chock-full of consensual sex from what I've heard.

 

[lucky_sharm]

Oh please. DBZ? Really? The villains there are literally walking clichés, and the entire point of the story is to watch how the main casts manage to lol-powerup and lay the smack down on the villains. Look, I actually grew up reading DB/DBZ, waiting for each weekly chapter to come out, and as much as I love the franchise for what it is, I'm not even going to pretend there's anything to those villains, which all boils down to "Yarr! I iz evil! Kill all the things!!!" or "Yarr! I iz evil! Conquer all the worlds!!!"

I'm not saying there's anything deep to those villains, either. What I'm saying is that they're fun and behave differently even if their goals are similar. The original Dragon Ball had Tao Tao Pai, Captain Blue, the Red Ribbon army, King Piccolo, and more, all of whom were entertaining and at the same time dangerous without needing to be introduced with glowing red eyes. Individually they each have a sort of charisma and flair, even when a lot of their goals come down to blowing up/taking over the planet. Again, I'm not saying villains all have to be deep, but at least give them personality.

Good lord, how many animes, or for that matter TV shows or movies or books have you seen or read in those years? Bad guys doing bad things to justify the protagonist's actions is such a basic construct I don't even know where to begin if that's your problem with the story. You don't want to see authors using emotional manipulation? Stick to documentaries, and even there you'd have to be careful.

What did you think Gladiators was about? Or maybe Dexter? Or basically every story where the protagonists beats a villain that did bad things? That brush is so wide you might as well just use a fire hose instead.

The overwhelming drive for political correctness displayed here is shocking. It's almost as if people aren't capable of separating what is real and what's fiction anymore.

It's all about the execution, and not every story is a black and white "good guys beat up bad guys" because if that's your perception then you definitely haven't seen enough media.

"hero gets the girl" happens EVERYWHERE. Eastern and western media, anime and Hollywood, manga and novels. Probably because it happens a shit ton in real life.

Um...that depends on what your definition of "hero" or "the girl" or how they're "gotten" because generally women in real life prefer to be treated like regular people as opposed to prizes to be won. If that weren't the case then more women in Japan would opt for family life (basically giving up all independence) instead of pursuing a career, then the population crisis would not be so bad.

And unless your only intake in media is really that limited then there are in fact many many stories that handle relationships in a more nuanced and entertaining fashion, with the girl and the hero actually having chemistry and the girl having motives and goals that have nothing to do the hero.

 

[Maraskeen]

(Please disregard this post, was attempting to edit mine for clarification. Thank you.)

 

[Brian Tams]

Its nothing to get up-in-arms about. The writers & directors for SAO didn't set up the scene with the intention for it to come off as tasteless (let's be frank, though; rape is a tasteless subject).

They're just incompetent at their jobs (and the material they're working with isn't the greatest).

As long as they didn't:

1. Set up the scene where the audience is supposed to feel a sense of empowerment from the rapists POV
2. Set up the scene where it appears that the girl, ah, "was asking for it"
3. Set up the scene as a cheap way to get some fanservice

Then its not something I'm going to get pissed about. And I didn't get any of that from the episode in question. Others may have, but me, personally, I didn't.

There is a discussion to be had about whether the scene was set up as a way to empower Kirito's character or not. But that's for another thread.

 

[kyp275]

This point is what I want to address since the rest seem fine.

The american market has some growth. The fact that stuff is even released to the country or even put on air means we have some importance. Also, someone has to break the echo chamber of waifu loving, pandered nuts. We have the ability as people to do so and I bet that there are critics in Japan who share similar sentiment as I do. The mass audience may determine the money but it's the academic and critical sphere that will determine it's cultural impact and SAO seems to not be satisfactory on the latter front.

I would argue that the ?growth? period of anime in the American market has long passed. Long gone are the day when you'd see entire sections filled with anime DVDs in stores. The main problem IMO is Japan's reluctance to embrace the digital distribution model that the American market has largely adopted. Crunchyroll is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough.

Your views and voice isn't really going to weight a whole lot if you're not a meaningful portion of the industry's consumer base. How much input do you think Hollywood seek from the Japanese consumers for their movies?

Again, I'm not saying villains all have to be deep, but at least give them personality.

I agree with you there. One dimentional villain without much personality is one of the core weakness SAO suffers from, especially in the first half.

It's all about the execution, and not every story is a black and white "good guys beat up bad guys" because if that's your perception then you definitely haven't seen enough media.

No, but that's not the point I was responding to either.

Um...that depends on what your definition of "hero" or "the girl" or how they're "gotten" because generally women in real life prefer to be treated like regular people as opposed to prizes to be won. If that weren't the case then more women in Japan would opt for family life (basically giving up all independence) instead of pursuing a career, then the population crisis would not be so bad.

And unless your only intake in media is really that limited then there are in fact many many stories that handle relationships in a more nuanced and entertaining fashion, with the girl and the hero actually having chemistry and the girl having motives and goals that have nothing to do the hero.

Ok, you are reading entirely way too many things where there is none. How 'bout this, hero = main protagonist, girl = romantic interest of protagonist, get = they get together.

You know, like what happens in just about every Bond and your typical action flick, or those endless waves of C/K/J-drama that all looks like iterations of the same goddamn plotline.

Also, please don't try to reduce the aging population to nothing more than ?more women are working instead of making babies?. It's a problem caused by a wide array of factors which are also present in most industrialized countries. It's markedly worse in Japan due to its near non-existent immigration policy, and far more brutal demands placed on employees by Japanese's corporate culture, especially on women. All this have a compounding detrimental effect on the financial burden of raising a child, which is ultimately the biggest factor that affects birthrates as a whole.

 

[ArkhamJester]

]I didn't have that problem with that scene. I thought it was genuinely creepy, especially if you consider that that guy was right next to her the whole time she was playing, probably doing god knows what to her unconscious body. Sinon handled the situation better than expected, considering she has PTSD.

Overall I think this season is vastly better than the first, and I actually enjoyed the first season. Most of the problems people bring up never bothered me, and Kirito doesn't rub me the wrong way like he does most people, as I enjoy seeing him kick ass. Most of the flaws people complain about I'm simply like "You know what? Sure... I'll buy it." Yes, you can say it's wish-fulfillment fantasy, but that's exactly it. It's wish-fulfillment, so I can wind down and enjoy it for what it is. And even if I had a problem with that I won't deny when the anime does something right, which it does several times, at least from my perspective.

EDIT: I'd just like to add this, for the whole sexism/misogyny/rape argument people keep making toward the series, let me just point to a highly acclaimed, highly praised anime/manga series.

In Berserk, nearly every female character, at some point, is shown nude or in a sexual manner, some even raped, no matter how strong they are depicted as being. It got to the point where any time a new female character would pop up I would just assume they'd be naked in a few scenes, and a lot of the time I was right. Yet, no one bats an eye or get all up in arms about it, and the series is still well regarded. One woman in particular is shown to be strong throughout, but at several points is victimized and talked down to by men, has a man save her several times, and is even raped, and ever since then her character completely changes from a strong woman to a weak one. This raises no backlash, no one is crying sexism or misogyny towards the series, and it is still highly regarded.

Sword Art Online has a female character who start out strong and independent, saving the main lead on several occasions, but is then turned into a damsel later for reasons that is NOT within her control, stuck in a world where she has no power, but still acts defiant, trying her best to keep her pride, and even tries escaping on her own. Even after being nearly sexually assaulted, she still retains her composure and personality. Everyone loses their shit, and that anime is condemned by many.

Now, Berserk is still the superior product by a landslide. It still has superior characters, story, and writing, but I just find that particular thing odd, unless I'm severely missing something.

I think you have your answer even if you don't realize it. Berserk's characters were far better realized so that when her character changes, it feels believable, the same can be applied to most other instances in Berserk. SAO struggles to make more than 2-3 characters interesting at any given time. I guess the answer is that SAO isn't good enough to pull it off without coming off as hacky.

 

[Karadalis]

-Did you skip over the entire paragraph where I said that your point would be valid if there is nothing else available, which is patently not true? And I'm sorry, but you need to have a reality check here. There was no "backfiring" of anything during ALO, nor is there going to be one with GGO, because frankly what the western fandom thinks is largely irrelevant. We are not their primary market, we're not even a secondary or tertiary market. Our financial contribution to the industry is minor at best. I'm not sure why you think they'd care what some westerners who don't even pay a single cent for their products think.

This point is what I want to address since the rest seem fine.

The american market has some growth. The fact that stuff is even released to the country or even put on air means we have some importance. Also, someone has to break the echo chamber of waifu loving, pandered nuts. We have the ability as people to do so and I bet that there are critics in Japan who share similar sentiment as I do. The mass audience may determine the money but it's the academic and critical sphere that will determine it's cultural impact and SAO seems to not be satisfactory on the latter front.

No.. im sorry but that is simply not true.

Anime are brought to the west via Licenses. Wich means that the actuall publishers in Japan have allready been paid upfront and/or get a % of the sales.

The very fact that the japanese companies dont give a flying fuck about bringing their animes to the west UNLESS a company from the west offers them money should show you that infact, japan only cares for japan in this case.

Heck this isnt only limited to anime but video games too. How many games released in japan never see the day of light outside of japan? Both gundam games and the monster hunter series come to mind as examples... or even games like mother.

Heck monster hunter frontier for example... all it would need is a simply text translation. It doesnt have any voice overs, its all simple text. But crapcom doesnt want to deal with western audiences because *gasp* the west has higher standards then the japanese. And its gotten so bad that we get translated versions of handheld titles years after they release in japan... again all it takes is a simple text translation... something modding groups have done a "decent" job of in less then a month. (Atleast enough to understand and play the games)

So no... the western market while being a somewhat nice to have extra cash income on the side has absolutely no influence on the decisions of the japanese entertainment industry.

Anime and japanese games had their great surgance 10 years or so ago but the western audience quickly lost interest after the likes of sailor moon and DBZ had their runs.

Heck even the "big" 2, one piece and naruto have lost alot of traction in the west. So why should any company in japan listen to what the remaining fans in the west want or dont want in anime? Same for JRPGs that used to be top sellers on playstation and before that on the SNES. They arent the powerhouses they used to be anymore and nowadays people roll their eyes at them.

Japan caters to japan, has allways been the case and will remain the case for the forseeable future.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

-Did you skip over the entire paragraph where I said that your point would be valid if there is nothing else available, which is patently not true? And I'm sorry, but you need to have a reality check here. There was no "backfiring" of anything during ALO, nor is there going to be one with GGO, because frankly what the western fandom thinks is largely irrelevant. We are not their primary market, we're not even a secondary or tertiary market. Our financial contribution to the industry is minor at best. I'm not sure why you think they'd care what some westerners who don't even pay a single cent for their products think.

This point is what I want to address since the rest seem fine.

The american market has some growth. The fact that stuff is even released to the country or even put on air means we have some importance. Also, someone has to break the echo chamber of waifu loving, pandered nuts. We have the ability as people to do so and I bet that there are critics in Japan who share similar sentiment as I do. The mass audience may determine the money but it's the academic and critical sphere that will determine it's cultural impact and SAO seems to not be satisfactory on the latter front.

No.. im sorry but that is simply not true.

Anime are brought to the west via Licenses. Wich means that the actuall publishers in Japan have allready been paid upfront and/or get a % of the sales.

The very fact that the japanese companies dont give a flying fuck about bringing their animes to the west UNLESS a company from the west offers them money should show you that infact, japan only cares for japan in this case.

Heck this isnt only limited to anime but video games too. How many games released in japan never see the day of light outside of japan? Both gundam games and the monster hunter series come to mind as examples... or even games like mother.

Heck monster hunter frontier for example... all it would need is a simply text translation. It doesnt have any voice overs, its all simple text. But crapcom doesnt want to deal with western audiences because *gasp* the west has higher standards then the japanese. And its gotten so bad that we get translated versions of handheld titles years after they release in japan... again all it takes is a simple text translation... something modding groups have done a "decent" job of in less then a month. (Atleast enough to understand and play the games)

So no... the western market while being a somewhat nice to have extra cash income on the side has absolutely no influence on the decisions of the japanese entertainment industry.

Anime and japanese games had their great surgance 10 years or so ago but the western audience quickly lost interest after the likes of sailor moon and DBZ had their runs.

Heck even the "big" 2, one piece and naruto have lost alot of traction in the west. So why should any company in japan listen to what the remaining fans in the west want or dont want in anime? Same for JRPGs that used to be top sellers on playstation and before that on the SNES. They arent the powerhouses they used to be anymore and nowadays people roll their eyes at them.

Japan caters to japan, has always been the case and will remain the case for the forseeable future.

To address both you and Kyp275

Fine, so we don't have a shred of influence

this makes me ask one question, why allow licenses over to the states in the first place. With games, I can understand since they have a farther reach so it's more based on overall demand but with anime we can just get it over the internet after people sub it so it shouldn't matter if an anime is licenced here or not.

Also, I still feel like i have some right to protest if a show does something completely stupid. Will it reach Japan, probably not but I can help others make an informed decision about their viewing choices.

finally, why did western interest in anime die off after sailor moon and DBZ? surely some of those people would have wanted different shows to come over so why the die-off?

 

[VanQ]

To address both you and Kyp275

Fine, so we don't have a shred of influence

this makes me ask one question, why allow licenses over to the states in the first place. With games, I can understand since they have a farther reach so it's more based on overall demand but with anime we can just get it over the internet after people sub it so it shouldn't matter if an anime is licenced here or not.

Also, I still feel like i have some right to protest if a show does something completely stupid. Will it reach Japan, probably not but I can help others make an informed decision about their viewing choices.

finally, why did western interest in anime die off after sailor moon and DBZ? surely some of those people would have wanted different shows to come over so why the die-off?

Some people buy anime. Just not enough of them are westerners and they buy anime at such a discounted price compared to Japan that it's not worth appealing to them as much. But there are enough people that buy it to support the licensors like Funimation. Japan could care less about continuing to supply anime to the west, it's Funimation and companies like them that approach the creators, not the other way around. With the exception of Noitamina, which is currently dead as far as I know.

Now, why could they care less about us? Let me break down some numbers for you.

It costs in the ball park of $70-$100 to buy a full series on BD here in Australia, after it's been dubbed and after the year or so period that usually is in place to prevent reverse importing. It costs me $70AUD to buy just ONE VOLUME of an anime on BD direct from Japan. And there is usually anywhere in the ball park of 10-13 volumes for a 24-25 episode series. That's roughly $700-$910 for a full set of first release BDs.

The Japanese audience at home is paying at least 10x what I am in a foreign market to buy their anime. And you wonder why they get preferential treatment? There are more of them and they're paying more than you are. And that isn't counting the people that buy manga, light novels and merchandise such as figurines. And also it doesn't take into account foreigners that speak Japanese and import their anime, manga, light novels and merchandise like I do.

If I really, really like a series, I support it by buying the original Japanese BDs because buying BDs from other regions doesn't actually support the original creators beyond the initial licensing cost.

EDIT: Here's some proof of the kind of prices that are charged for anime and merchandise. These prices are from AmiAmi and are the cheapest I could find after searching around.

Spoiler

The 7000yen orders are all anime BDs. Mostly Sword Art Online season 2 first release BDs. The 10,000yen orders are both figurines. At the time of writing, 1000yen = $9US.

If you want more of what you like, you unfortunately have to cough up cash to support it in Japan. You don't get paid enough by ratings and people that torrent your stuff. This is why I can see nothing but arrogance in your complaints because I doubt you've spent a cent to actually support anime you liked. And considering your avatar is from P4, and the fact that I actually bought all the BDs for the first season of the P4 anime, you might even have me to thank in part for the second season that aired last season.

 

[kyp275]

To address both you and Kyp275

Fine, so we don't have a shred of influence

this makes me ask one question, why allow licenses over to the states in the first place. With games, I can understand since they have a farther reach so it's more based on overall demand but with anime we can just get it over the internet after people sub it so it shouldn't matter if an anime is licenced here or not.

It's extra profit, one that doesn't require much overhead cost to the company for the most part as it's the western distributors that comes knocking on their door seeking to license their product for distribution.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the bolded portion.

Also, I still feel like i have some right to protest if a show does something completely stupid. Will it reach Japan, probably not but I can help others make an informed decision about their viewing choices.

Of course, you have the right to protest whatever you want. I'm just pointing out that in all honesty it would have little effect.

finally, why did western interest in anime die off after sailor moon and DBZ? surely some of those people would have wanted different shows to come over so why the die-off?

It didn't. The market peaked somewhere in the early to mid 2000s, during the time period where things like Pokemon and Yugioh managed to wrestle themselves into the mainstream, and DVD releases became a much faster and reliable way of obtaining anime compared to the early days of fansubbing (I still have some old VHS fansubs somewhere...).

It wasn't long after that when broadband begin to really take off, and with that the age of same-day/week fansubs begin. This coupled with the decline of the anime industry in Japan itself, and the relative lack of financial resources of the anime publishers in the west eventually led to a drastic reduction in what's actually licensed and brought over to the west. Also, many entertainment "trends" in the US eventually proves to be nothing more than a momentary fad, and anime is no exception (how often do you see kids talking about pokemon etc. these days?), so while the core fanbase is still here, the ones that were brought in with the temporary popularity explosion has largely left.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

I suppose so but the issue is that I sadly can't speak Japanese (i doubt the original Japanese blu-rays have subs in them) and I am not in an economic state to be buying figurines or full releases of anime being a college student with no job. The closest I get to purchasing stuff to support them are Gunplas and I only buy them infrequently. This certainly is a depressing state of affairs. I still do wish that Japan does try to consider digital distribution options but Japan is a big country and resistant to change. I will however apologize for any arrogance on my part since I haven't bought any dvds or figurines.

 

[VanQ]

I suppose so but the issue is that I sadly can't speak Japanese (i doubt the original Japanese blu-rays have subs in them) and I am not in an economic state to be buying figurines or full releases of anime being a college student with no job. The closest I get to purchasing stuff to support them are Gunplas and I only buy them infrequently. This certainly is a depressing state of affairs. I still do wish that Japan does try to consider digital distribution options but Japan is a big country and resistant to change. I will however apologize for any arrogance on my part since I haven't bought any dvds or figurines.

And that's fine, I didn't exactly buy much of anything while I was still in university. And it's only by the sheer dumb luck that I started learning Japanese through school in grade 6-12 and into university that I ever even came to be able to speak it.

It's a sad state of affairs for people that want more variety but it's not like there's only SAO tier stuff being released. There are still great shows that appeal more to westerners even if they're not the majority and there's usually at least one or two every season.

Have you tried Fate/Zero? Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Bladeworks airs this season and it's got a really really sublime story and setting. There was Akame ga Kill last season which was really popular with the Attack on Titan crowd. Psycho Pass is airing its second season this season too. Terra Formars is also airing this season and it's gruesome and dark as hell.

It's not all tentacles, rape and cute girls like you seem to think it is. Though there are a lot of cute girls.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I suppose so but the issue is that I sadly can't speak Japanese (i doubt the original Japanese blu-rays have subs in them) and I am not in an economic state to be buying figurines or full releases of anime being a college student with no job. The closest I get to purchasing stuff to support them are Gunplas and I only buy them infrequently. This certainly is a depressing state of affairs. I still do wish that Japan does try to consider digital distribution options but Japan is a big country and resistant to change. I will however apologize for any arrogance on my part since I haven't bought any dvds or figurines.

And that's fine, I didn't exactly buy much of anything while I was still in university. And it's only by the sheer dumb luck that I started learning Japanese through school in grade 6-12 and into university that I ever even came to be able to speak it.

It's a sad state of affairs for people that want more variety but it's not like there's only SAO tier stuff being released. There are still great shows that appeal more to westerners even if they're not the majority and there's usually at least one or two every season.

Have you tried Fate/Zero? Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Bladeworks airs this season and it's got a really really sublime story and setting. There was Akame ga Kill last season which was really popular with the Attack on Titan crowd. Psycho Pass is airing its second season this season too. Terra Formars is also airing this season and it's gruesome and dark as hell.

It's not all tentacles, rape and cute girls like you seem to think it is. Though there are a lot of cute girls.

I will probably watch Fate/Zero at some point (it's Urobuchi writing so that's an automatic plus) and Fate/stay night seems fun. I already made my piece about Akame ga Kill, Psycho Pass 2 will be fun and part of me is on the fence about Terraformers since the only legitimate stream of it is so heavily censored that most of it is black.

I understand that there is more stuff out there but as a person who likes Seinen, it gets really irritating seeing stuff that I feel panders too much or is too shallow. It doesn't help that even the Seinen can be really cheap and exploitative at times with overly simplistic writing. And I understand that it's not all tentacles, rape, and moe, hell I will defend anime as a media with thematic purpose against any who say that until the day i die, but seeing so much moe get popular really doesn't help my mood especially since I really dislike slice of life; the only slice of life type show I will acknowledge I like is Kids on the Slope and I'm not sure if it fits the genre completely.

P.S this is what I get for learning Latin in high school and not Japanese. I tried learning Japanese in university but lost almost all knowledge after one semester so I stopped.

 

[VanQ]

I will probably watch Fate/Zero at some point (it's Urobuchi writing so that's an automatic plus) and Fate/stay night seems fun. I already made my piece about Akame ga Kill, Psycho Pass 2 will be fun and part of me is on the fence about Terraformers since the only legitimate stream of it is so heavily censored that most of it is black.

I understand that there is more stuff out there but as a person who likes Seinen, it gets really irritating seeing stuff that I feel panders too much or is too shallow. It doesn't help that even the Seinen can be really cheap and exploitative at times with overly simplistic writing. And I understand that it's not all tentacles, rape, and moe, hell I will defend anime as a media with thematic purpose against any who say that until the day i die, but seeing so much moe get popular really doesn't help my mood especially since I really dislike slice of life; the only slice of life type show I will acknowledge I like is Kids on the Slope and I'm not sure if it fits the genre completely.

P.S this is what I get for learning Latin in high school and not Japanese. I tried learning Japanese in university but lost almost all knowledge after one semester so I stopped.

You really should get on Fate/Zero if you intend to watch it. It's one of my all time favourites for a reason. Just don't watch the 2006 adaptation of Stay Night. God it was bad.

Anyways, it seems to be a common misconception that "moe" only got popular recently. Which is of course, false but backed up by childhood memories of only seeing stuff like Cowboy Bebop/Evangelion/etc type shows on TV. The word "moe" may have taken on the meaning of fetishized cuteness recently but "kawaii" shit has always been around.

Anime has been cute for as long as it's been a thing. Japan is known for its "Culture of Cute". Cute shit is popular there, that's just how it is and that shows in their media.

 

[Karadalis]

To address both you and Kyp275

Fine, so we don't have a shred of influence

this makes me ask one question, why allow licenses over to the states in the first place. With games, I can understand since they have a farther reach so it's more based on overall demand but with anime we can just get it over the internet after people sub it so it shouldn't matter if an anime is licenced here or not.

Also, I still feel like i have some right to protest if a show does something completely stupid. Will it reach Japan, probably not but I can help others make an informed decision about their viewing choices.

finally, why did western interest in anime die off after sailor moon and DBZ? surely some of those people would have wanted different shows to come over so why the die-off?

The reason they give licenses is two fold:

First... they dont have to do any of the work themselves. Thats what the license holders will do... (wich can have horrendous effects on said anime... look at the early one piece license in the US replacing guns with super soaker)

Second... they dont have to deal with western audiences themselves. To the japanese "we" are as alien as the japanese culture is alien to us.

As to why the interest died down... well for one: The demographic that was once interested in these series like DBZ, Digimon, Sailor Moon and what have you simply grew up and the new generations simply spend more time either on youtube or doing other things then watching TV... like video games.

Another theory of mine is that TV stations here in the west have little inteterest in cartoons that they cant merchandise the hell out of. So anime in general are unatractive to them because the japanese companies usually dont give away the merchandise rights.

Look at all the merc for series like ben 10.

Meanwhile gundam merchandise is completly owned by Bandai and you can bet your behind that they would never ever share control over the merchandise with western companies. (There was a brief period of time where they tried to get into western markets when Gundam seed picked up in the west, but they didnt follow up on its success and let it die, some claim that it was because of 9/11.. picture if you will)

Not to mention that alot of the anime produced simply arent merchandisable in the west since it would be targeted at adults. Merch from anime like Dance in the Vampirebund for example would be seen as really creepy

Anime in general still has a stigma in the west especially the merchandise for it like figurines or these body pillows and all that other stuff anime fans collect.

So yeah... completly uninteresting for TV networks.

Also japanese companies like to completly ignore the west for whatever reason. For example japanese game companies completly IP block you from their online games and ban people from the west if they catch them playing THEIR games, even if said games arent even licensed outside of japan and no plans of such exist. Its like they simply dont want dirty foreigner money.

So they give licenses out aslong as they dont have to get directly involved with the translation or have to interact with western fanbases.

For japanese anime and game companies the markets outside of japan might not even exist... its like "here be dragons" as soon as you step out of asia.

 

[Raesvelg]

One of the interesting things about analyzing single episodes of a television program is that the story, such as it is, keeps moving. Particularly after "cliffhanger" episodes.

Spoiler

So, how does it affect your analysis of the situation when, in the subsequent episode (14), Kirito starts getting the ever-loving shit kicked out of him and Sinon subsequently clubs her attack unconscious?

Obviously has no effect on the rape-as-drama mechanic, but it certainly has at least some impact on the damseling issue.

 

[Lupine]

I really hate this series

That begs the question then, why continue watching it?

OT: I mostly agree with what [Kira Must Die] said.

]I didn't have that problem with that scene. I thought it was genuinely creepy, especially if you consider that that guy was right next to her the whole time she was playing, probably doing god knows what to her unconscious body. Sinon handled the situation better than expected, considering she has PTSD.

Overall I think this season is vastly better than the first, and I actually enjoyed the first season. Most of the problems people bring up never bothered me, and Kirito doesn't rub me the wrong way like he does most people, as I enjoy seeing him kick ass. Most of the flaws people complain about I'm simply like "You know what? Sure... I'll buy it." Yes, you can say it's wish-fulfillment fantasy, but that's exactly it. It's wish-fulfillment, so I can wind down and enjoy it for what it is. And even if I had a problem with that I won't deny when the anime does something right, which it does several times, at least from my perspective.

The things that bother people about SAO simply don't annoy me. While I haven't enjoyed this season as much as the first (Asuna, my favourite character, hasn't had enough screen time or involvement) it's been enjoyable. I like to watch Kirito kick ass like the Mary Sue that he is and Sinon is a pretty interesting character. The story is entertaining and I like all of the characters.

On the subject of villains - it is refreshing for me to have villains that are flat out disgusting and horrible, who you can just hate. Oberon in ALO and now [REDACTED] in GGO, have been disgusting, deplorable people. It's nice to just have despicable enemies instead of sympathetic villains with tragic pasts or plausibly good motivations for a change. Granted I think they spent a little too long on the sexual assault scene this time, but I still thought it was quite good.

I would like villians to have some development or depth personally. It makes them more compelling than a man who wants to take over the world.

to put it into perspective, here are two of the best villains in anime according to some

Both are complete and utter monsters but both have a backstory or at least a character to their madness and sadism. To me, a blatantly evil villain with no character is like an old cartoon villain; no fear, no impact, no sense of pure monstrous personality.

Also, I don't like Gary Sues. the closest characters to a Gary Sue I can think of that I've seen is Kamijou Touma from the Index series and Sora/Shiro from No Game No LIfe. I really don't care for Touma since the other people in his ensamble are more fun; as for No Game No Life, the enjoyment is mostly the sheer insanity of how they beat it and even they have a major flaw (social anxiety) and generally have a personality to bounce off Steph and Jibiril. Kirito though really doesn't have a real personality to bounce off people and the rest of the cast keeps getting sidelined for his antics. So I am watching a charcter with no real personality, no real flaw, and generally pushes other cast members and their potential aside for the self-insert.

Edit: most of my criticism of SAO comes from the light novels and what little of the anime i've seen. I stopped reading the light novel because it was getting insane with the abilities and I was interested in the anime but people were not exactly very positive about it.

I need to be that guy. Touma isn't really a Gary Sue. In fact he's sort of the opposite, he is the character meant to be horrible at everything. He's the loveable loser trope in human form. The fact that he manages to have an ability that is kinda OP doesn't change the fact that he is supposed to be horrible at everything and proceeds to be so except through hard work and willpower he manages to stand against those greater than himself for the sake of his friends. In a sense he is the every man character with Goku's outlook on life attached to him and a power cancel that allows him to stand up to some of the most OP villains this side of DBZ.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I like him. It is also easy to see why the characters allied with him like him as well seeing as he tries to do his best for them no matter what and I'm going to say that it is by design that all of his supporting cast is much more interesting and powerful than him. He is supposed to be the odd man out, the unremarkable one, and I for one love him for it. Well that and his devotion to his ideals. Basically I think of him as Kenichi part 2.

 

[F4TK]

I'm gonna take back my last post, Episode 14 made things much, much better.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Yes, it's one of these threads again. No, I get no enjoyment from these threads because I ultimately want to smack my head on a desk or I feel like I need a whole lot of pills and alcohol to wash the pain away.

Anyway, I was prompted to write this thread after reading a post here [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2881191&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=91] on the anime news network about SAO II episode 13. Basically, Sinon, the new female lead for the GGO arc, is attacked by a former friend who is in league with a serial killer targeting top players in GGO. He attacks with a syringe of poison but gets pushed by Sinon (yes, i know this is real world but I want to keep the name simple for reference). He then grabs Sinon, throws the syringe away and tries to rape her. Kirito then enters and punches the guy in the face.

Now, I am not opposed to using rape as a narrative device but you better use it well. People on the forums have talked about it some saying that it fits since the attempted rapist is very broken mentally while other argue that it feels too much like a hero fantasy and the fact that Kirito was the one to save Sinon not Sinon herself was what condemned the scene for them. To put it into perspective, Psycho-Pass has a rape in the first episode but the shot was from a distance and the intervention was ultimately not a heroic act but simply a matter of doing the job. It felt a hell of a lot more tasteful than what is described here.

Having read only the light novels and not either of the anime due to the reputation of them, the author does seem to use attempted rape a lot. First, the threat was on Asuna in ALO, then it's Sinon in GGO and later it will be two helpers to the main leads in Alicezation Online. To me, using rape as a narrative device is almost always a one-use item because doing it again may seem exploitative.

Regardless, my (probably invalid) point has been made so what do you think.

I commented on this previously, but hadn't seen it yet...
I finally saw the actual episode just now, but the discription you've given of the scene seems a little off. (Though you make referenve to the manga, while I only saw the anime, but...

Anyway, before I start, I should mention that while I usually don't mind spoilers, I wish I hadn't read this thread before seeing it. The anticipation was much worse than the actual event.

Spoiler: actual description of the scene in question

And as to that... event, I almost wish it had depicted actual rape (not very likely given the show's apparent rating), and not that weird creepy buildup. I know that sounds weird, but that really freaked me out, because it reminded me of my own experience...
Well, until he started being really creepy, then it got a bit silly.
Being raped by someone you already know is unfortunately much more likely than the things people usually try to scare you with...

But anyway, here's what I saw... (terrible with names, so forgive my description)

She wakes up after logging out, and wanders around her house, fearing a hidden attacker, but finds no-one. (That didn't do my nerves much good, I have to say, but the next bit was worse)
The doorbell rings (i think), and a voice calls out.
It's her friend, so she lets him in, (as anyone would, really)
He congratulates her on winning,
Then starts to talk about stuff, in particular the 'promise' she supposedly made to him about being with him when she had won, and was strong (that creeped me out more than the stuff later on)
He... tries to get more intimite with her, but she resists...
And he then pulls out the syringe, pins her to her bed, and threatens her with it while explaining his involvement with the murders, while generally being weird and creepy, and molesting her... That certainly looks a lot like the buildup to rape already... (and definitely reminds me of feelings I'd rather not remember. My rapist wasn't that creepy, nor threatening in that same kind of way, but it was still too close for comfort.)
This bit goes on disturbingly long, but eventually she finds some inner courage, and forces him off, then tries to run away. But... she doesn't get too far before he grabs her leg and tries to continue right where he left off.
Only, at this point, kirito runs in and punches him, and a fight ensues while kirito tells her to run...

Overall, this disturbed me more than I would've expected. I have never considered my own rape to be overly traumatic. Worse things have happened to me, and as far as rape goes I got off easy. But this scene managed to push all the wrong buttons and brought back a degree of trauma I didn't even know I had...
So in that sense, it is a very disturbing scene.

Having said that, in context, the scene works pretty well... That I found it so traumatic speaks to it's believability.

Whether SAO should really have gone there is a different matter. While much better storywise than the mess that is the second half of season 1, (in spite of it's disturbing nature, this feels a lot less gratuous and stupid than that stuff with Asuna...)
But... The fact that this recurs so much in the series... Is a little messed up. If this scene with Sinon had been the only thing in the series (with maybe the odd 'fanservice' jokey thing like that girl grabbed by the giant plant in one of the early episodes) it would've been reasonable, and not too bad as a story.
Not nessesary by any means; sinon's story arc would've been fine without it, but it doesn't feel terribky out of place.

But as a continuing recurring theme... Well, that starts to be rather disturbing. (Notwithstanding my innate discomfort with Sinon's scene, it doesn't bother me that it exists... In isolation...)

Anyway, I think that about covers it... Might have a few nightmares for the next few days, but that's my own fault for not realising I was carrying around more trauma from my own past than I was really aware of...

Probably not the best thing to be watching, all things considered...

Anyway, that's about it.
If you didn't read the spoiler:
Found the scene unexpectedly traumatic, and bringing up bad memories/old feelings...
In context of the story however, it fits well enough, and I don't mind it being there.

The thought of this being an ongoing theme in SAO however, is something I don't much like the thought of, having seen this...

That's about it.