Tabletop games: Why are they fun?
- Thread starter RaikuFA
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This is the reason my friends and I tend not to play MtG based on formats. We could never take our decks to a tournament because we've pulled in cards from all different sets because they work in that specific deck; in organised play they'd mostly be illegal. Playing around someone's kitchen table just gives you so much more freedom.Ultratwinkie said:
Then yeah, it's your friends who are assholes.RaikuFA said:
If it's playing a friendly game yet players still consider the newbie "dead weight", they don't sound like people I'd want to play with. What makes you assume that the same thing would happen again with different people? People in general are pretty cool; when I was introduced to Warhammer, the shop guy was friendly and gave me and my mate a free tutorial. When I was introduced to MtG, and as I've introduced new people to the game since, the emphasis has been on understanding the game and having fun rather than an opportunity for the teacher to beat the pupil.
Some players are tools, but most don't want to just steamroll over people who don't know how to play the game, because it isn't very fun. It's much more satisfying to destroy someone who knows exactly how badly fucked they are ;-)
What system are we talking about? D&D 3.X is horrible, yes, it does take eons plus/minus a millenium but other systems do not, also you can get pre-genned characters, if needed. But otherwise - FATE you can literally pick up and play immediately and do chargen during play, for example, other systems are also really light on rules and such - with Ninja Burger (1st edition) you can get a team of complete newbies and get a game going in 15-20 minutes, which includes rules explanation and character generation.RaikuFA said:
At this point you chuck a can of coke at them. Or better yet, find a GM who isn't a dick. Otherwise, that's not what usually happens. It's like saying "why do people like video games if only 13 year olds scream and curse at them", i.e., not representative.RaikuFA said:
Because...they are. I can't put it much simpler than that. Clearly your view is heavily tainted by confirmation bias, so I don't think I can go into any meaningful details.RaikuFA said:
It depends on the group; we had a DM who was a great storyteller and each of us was invested enough in our characters to give them quirks and accents BUT we weren't above taking the piss out of each other.
That and the beer and pizza helped; a lot actually.
That and the beer and pizza helped; a lot actually.
hate the player, not the game?RaikuFA said:
tabletops can be fun just because of the limitless potential. Anything can happen, and the character progression, while slow, is extremely rewarding.
Shitty players can make for an unfun time to be had, but if you get a couple of like-minded friends together, table-top dungeon crawling can be just as rewarding as any RPG video game.
Imagination.
It's really hard to get games set up and harder to keep them going but It's much harder to program a video game that's personally tailored for your personal friends than it is to us these rules as a medium for adventure. It's not for everybody but there is no other place where I can sit down and decide I want to be a good aligned destructive/rune-cleric Aasimar that intends to use terrorist measures to strike out at those that oppress the slums of her home city. Also I had a Neotenic Bio-luminescent illusionist cyberpunk cat-girl pop-singer that was running from debt and her 7 evil Exes in ShadowRun 4e because why the hell not?
If you are interested in the stories but not the rules that's fine as well. One of my first games when I was much younger was a heavily modified RIFTS setting used to act out our own Alice Games from the anime Rozen Maiden. We used no dice, no rules, and determined the success of everything by the GM informing me of how well each crazy scheme I thought up would go over against the challenge at hand.
The trick is finding friends that want the same experience as you (or are willing to compromise to create something for everyone) and picking the right game/level-of-caring-about-rules.
It's really hard to get games set up and harder to keep them going but It's much harder to program a video game that's personally tailored for your personal friends than it is to us these rules as a medium for adventure. It's not for everybody but there is no other place where I can sit down and decide I want to be a good aligned destructive/rune-cleric Aasimar that intends to use terrorist measures to strike out at those that oppress the slums of her home city. Also I had a Neotenic Bio-luminescent illusionist cyberpunk cat-girl pop-singer that was running from debt and her 7 evil Exes in ShadowRun 4e because why the hell not?
If you are interested in the stories but not the rules that's fine as well. One of my first games when I was much younger was a heavily modified RIFTS setting used to act out our own Alice Games from the anime Rozen Maiden. We used no dice, no rules, and determined the success of everything by the GM informing me of how well each crazy scheme I thought up would go over against the challenge at hand.
The trick is finding friends that want the same experience as you (or are willing to compromise to create something for everyone) and picking the right game/level-of-caring-about-rules.
Thats definately it.RaikuFA said:
Look, if thats your attitude, I seriously recommend going back to videogame rpgs or whatever, because despite the D&D stereotype, its a very social game. You need to set up schedules, you need to talk and make decisions together and you will eventually need to handle the friction and drama that comes with any group hobby. Meeting new people, hanging out with old ones and spending time together with them is a part of the appeal, and if your not interested in that, you probably wont get into it.
Besides, I can tell you from experience that in addition to antisocial people not having fun in the game themselves, they tend to bog down it for others aswell. It doesnt matter if you feel like your being persecuted against or whatever, but that attitude will only make things worse.
If there was just a one game thing I suggest switching campagins, otherwise, this hobby just isn't for you.
TLDR:
gunny1993 said:
Like most said, its the people you're playing with. A good campaign has a DM that bends the campaign to fit the players and the other players are respectful of each other and "argue" only in character. The goal of tabletops is to make it fun for everyone involved and create a story together. Its creating memories. Even if you just have one or two friends you feel absolutely comfortable with, its better to play with them than with jerks or strangers. Just bend the rules to allow fewer people. Everyone has to be on the same wavelength.
My Saturdays are basically made up of this. If we're not running out DnD 3.5 campaign then we're playing Gamma World (soon to be swapped out with Shadowrun. We're kind of half hard-core and half not. While our Gamma World campaign is inherently pretty funny, in our DnD run, while mostly serious we leave room for some comical moments and our DM is awesome enough to let story trump rules if something works well enough. As for what other people of said, it really is just about who you play with.
I really don't get where people have this idea that Warhammer has to be such a stupidly expensive hobby. Sure, if you buy everything new and try to rush an army together your looking at a lot of money. But you don't have to be like that - I spend about £40-60 a month adding to my armies, getting a few new paints.etc and then actually take my time putting them together, painting.etc and still manage to spend less than if I bought a couple of new AAA games.Ultratwinkie said:
The initial outlay is high, of course, but the initial outlay in lots of hobbies is pretty high too (buying a console/gaming PC, buy a musical instrument.etc)
OT: Tabletop games are REALLY reliant on who your playing with more than what your playing, in the same way that playing FPSs online with friends are generally funner than with "with-at-all-costs" douchebags. Playing a game with people who are friendly and more interested in having fun than being metagaming rule-lawyers makes a huge difference. The point you raise about annoying DM is a pretty good example - if the DM is an annoying goon, your probably playing with the wrong DM.
I think what you need is new friends because, from the way you describe them, yours sound awful. I'm reminded of a personal ad I once read in one of the national newspapers here: "Getting rid of all my old friends as they are no good for me. Looking for new ones." Or something to that effect. Struck me as a highly efficient yet ballsy move.
Making new friends is hard I know; I'm not a social person either, although I can fake it pretty well, so I know how hard it is to connect. But even if pen & paper tabletopping is not for you - and it may not be - you shouldn't come away from the experience feeling bullied and belittled. Bored perhaps, but not bullied.
Pen & paper tabletopping can be extremely fun and engaging, a way of challenging yourself to step outside your comfort zone but still be safe in your chair surrounded by, if not friends, at least friendly people who won't judge and will laugh with you not at you when you make a blunder.
But if it's not for you then it isn't. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Sorry, rambling. Haven't slept. Hope this made sense!
Making new friends is hard I know; I'm not a social person either, although I can fake it pretty well, so I know how hard it is to connect. But even if pen & paper tabletopping is not for you - and it may not be - you shouldn't come away from the experience feeling bullied and belittled. Bored perhaps, but not bullied.
Pen & paper tabletopping can be extremely fun and engaging, a way of challenging yourself to step outside your comfort zone but still be safe in your chair surrounded by, if not friends, at least friendly people who won't judge and will laugh with you not at you when you make a blunder.
But if it's not for you then it isn't. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Sorry, rambling. Haven't slept. Hope this made sense!
What kind of character(s) did/do you play? If you've been trying to play serious characters and keep ending up a laughingstock, try playing a NON-serious character and see what happens. You can't be a laughingstock if you design your guy to be such a thing specifically!RaikuFA said:
I have a friend I invited to play a game of Unhallowed Metropolis I was running. He skimmed over the rulebook, didn't really know what he was doing, and ended up creating a morbidly obese cockney thug who had no body armor, a baseball bat with a nail in it, 20 grenades and an accent so terrible we couldn't tell if he was speaking with a cockney accent or his character had a speech impediment.
This character (Balthazar, or as my friend pronounced it, BALFAZAWR) has become legendary amongst my group in terms of how hilarious and awesome he was. This guy, who barely knew how to even play the game, made a character that fooled an entire professional military platoon by bluffing about penis envy, leveled a small apartment building, convinced a bunch of ghouls to abandon their leader and join him by promising them "all the benefits of health care", completely destroyed Newington, Bermondsey, and Rotherite, and my personal favorite, committed an act of public defecation to scare away a corrupt Nobleman, and then managed to SPRINT LIKE A KENYAN away from his bodyguards with his pants still around his ankles.
So remember, if other players are being assholes, don't be a victim.
Be a BALFAZAWR.
Eh, it is expensive, but not drastically more so than many other hobbies. Problem is people tend to look at getting into the hobby as one big investment, spending £200 or whatever on an army at once. Whereas a more gradual acquisition if figures as you assemble and paint them, and it doesn't seem so bad. If someone working minimum wage can afford to continue to collect his army, then it's not an impossible game to finance. Then there's the time you spend on it, which I've mentioned in a thread before.RaikuFA said:
Megalodon said:
Edit: This ninja gets it, well said.
VonKlaw said:
Warhammer 40k and Fantasy are tabletop wargames, not RPGs, so there isn't a DM, only the rules in the rulebook.RaikuFA said:
As far as your intial question, playing/interacting with other people is one of the points of the game. If you don't like that, then you won't like the game. But some people enjoy that, asking why is kind of pointless, why do you like the things that you do like?
If you feel like the game system is boring, find a new system.
If no system seems fun, you could just not like this sort of thing(which is perfectly fine)
If you feel like the people you are gaming with are assholes, you have a people problem. Find new people.
If every group you game with seems to be made up of assholes, you still have a people problem, but the other people aren't the problem.
As for systems with lighter rules/character creation, I'm finding the new Star Wars: Edge of the Empire to strike a happy medium, so that it isn't bogged down like D&D, yet has enough mechanical crunch that I don't feel like I'm playing Living Room Theater Hour. Moreover it does hand some narrative control to the players. There is a GM, but you can use Destiny Points to attempt to do something awesome(similar to FATE in that respect), and when you get a particularly good roll(There are Triumph and Advantage "riders" in addition to success/fail), you can narrate the outcome so long as the group agrees that it is reasonable.
In any case, keep in mind a phrase I picked up from the RPG.net forums: "No gaming is better than bad gaming." If you aren't enjoying the game - for any reason - don't hesitate to point it out. A mature group can discuss the problem and find a solution, and if the group isn't mature enough to do so, then you are certainly not obligated to stick around.
If no system seems fun, you could just not like this sort of thing(which is perfectly fine)
If you feel like the people you are gaming with are assholes, you have a people problem. Find new people.
If every group you game with seems to be made up of assholes, you still have a people problem, but the other people aren't the problem.
As for systems with lighter rules/character creation, I'm finding the new Star Wars: Edge of the Empire to strike a happy medium, so that it isn't bogged down like D&D, yet has enough mechanical crunch that I don't feel like I'm playing Living Room Theater Hour. Moreover it does hand some narrative control to the players. There is a GM, but you can use Destiny Points to attempt to do something awesome(similar to FATE in that respect), and when you get a particularly good roll(There are Triumph and Advantage "riders" in addition to success/fail), you can narrate the outcome so long as the group agrees that it is reasonable.
In any case, keep in mind a phrase I picked up from the RPG.net forums: "No gaming is better than bad gaming." If you aren't enjoying the game - for any reason - don't hesitate to point it out. A mature group can discuss the problem and find a solution, and if the group isn't mature enough to do so, then you are certainly not obligated to stick around.
I've been a Storyteller/DM for 16 years, and can tell you the reason you're not having fun either comes down to the people you're gaming with or a lack of imagination.RaikuFA said:
Tabletop RPG's are not something that should be compared to video games; they are supposed to essentially be stories you create with your friends. You write up characters and do your best to run them as if they were people; give them personalities and more than one dimension. Write families for them, hobbies, and put more energy and creativity into their lives than what kewl powerz they have.
That, and if you throw a rock at a glass wall in a Tabletop RPG, the glass breaks.
The ST/DM has the responsibility to make the setting, the world, and taper adventures to the characters so there is truly an interactive experience. Soon enough, the characters end up making a difference in the world they have become familiar with, and monsters they kill actually stay dead - just like in a good series of novels or TV show.
It's not that difficult, especially now that the Internet exists, for anyone to cook up a great campaign if they want to honestly sit down and do the work to run it. So if your ST/DM lives to make you suffer, dump him.
I drafted informal "rules" for any campaign I would ever run over a decade ago, and they have made my campaigns a blast to run (most of the time), because I had players who were invested in the Story and I was invested in their Characters. The list is long (8x things ST/DM's should expect from players, and 8x things players should expect from the ST/DM), but it's worked for us for years.
I hope they help!
THE 'RULES'
What the Players Should Expect from the Storyteller:
I. THE DEATH CLAUSE:
The Storyteller will be fair to all of the PC?s. If a PC dies unfairly, a resurrection will be made possible in some form that is fair to the PC. This has only to do with ?unfair? deaths ? from circumstances out of the Player?s control. One failed roll that results in a PC?s death (given the availability of Re-Roll Points) isn?t necessarily cause for Storyteller ?Intervention?. Death must and will be something the PC?s have to fear and respect; however Players should be encouraged to develop their characters without having to worry about the likelihood of character death.
II. THE HIDDEN LEVER CLAUSE:
The Storyteller will never deliberately try to kill off a PC?s, nor will he create a no-win situation, place an auto-kill cursed magical item in the treasure, etc. The Storyteller won?t hold back an opponent?s capabilities for the PC?s benefit, but all opponents and situations will be fair to the PC?s.
There will always be a way out. If defeat is inevitable, capture or retreat will always be potential options. Sometimes it may not be obvious, but the Storyteller will never force the Players into a scenario where their only option is death.
III. THE CREATIVITY CLAUSE:
The ST will try to give players what they want in characters created, new spells, new magical items, new proficiencies, new abilities, etc. within reason and the rules.
IV. THE FAMILY CLAUSE:
The Storyteller will try to create adventures the PC?s will enjoy and will be creative in adventures (adventures rescuing loved ones are fun, but only so many times). It is unrealistic for PC?s in-character to go through their lives without making friends or having relationships for fear that out-of-character the Storyteller will end up destroying them for the purposes of plot hooks.
V. THE TREASURE CLAUSE:
The Players will be rewarded adequately for each adventure. Players should enjoy (but not expect) rewards for everything their characters do, but the Storyteller has the responsibility of being fair with rewards and the happiness of the characters. Sometimes, however these rewards are not obvious.
VI. THE COMMITTEE CLAUSE:
The Storyteller will inform players of rules changes/additions and listen to players? input before their implementation, so players have a say in rules changes additions.
VII. THE ELITIST CLAUSE:
The Storyteller will not cater to any one character, and will treat all characters equally. While circumstantial situations may arise where one Player contributes more to a particular Chapter or Act, all Players will be given equal chance to contribute to the storyline during the campaign.
VIII. THE AI CLAUSE:
The Storyteller is responsible for the players? happiness, and accomplishes this by: making adventures not too tough or too easy; allowing PC?s to gain power not too quickly or slowly; letting Players do what they want, but not do so with impunity; and allowing for PC victory or defeat.
What the Storyteller Should Expect from the Players:
I. THE FINALITY CLAUSE:
When the Storyteller makes a decision, the decision stands. The Storyteller will listen to player input, will discuss all rules additions and changes with the players, and if a disagreement occurs, the group as a whole will be consulted. Based on that input, the Storyteller will then make a decision which is final, unless it is found later on to not work (being too easy, too strict, or too unrealistic, etc.); then the Storyteller can change it.
II. THE OPTION(S) CLAUSE:
The Storyteller decides both what optional rules he wishes to include in the campaign, and has final approval on all new characters, new spells, new magical items, new proficiencies, etc. that the players wish to create or use.
III. THE MODIFICATION CLAUSE:
The Storyteller can modify opponents of the players and the experience points the players get as he sees fit, as PC power levels have increased with later supplements, it is reasonable for opponents? power levels to increase as well.
While a familiarity with many opponents comes with long experience, etc., the Storyteller has a responsibility to keep adventures interesting. This clause is to prevent the subsequent arguments that waste valuable time when new elements are used. [IE: Don?t be a Rules Lawyer.]
IV. THE ALTAR CLAUSE:
The Players must accept the consequences of their characters? actions, as well as plain fate, just as their opponents do. Magical Items are sometimes lost (destroyed, stolen, artifacts disappear, etc.) from time to time by both the PCs and their enemies. Deities have the right to take action to assist or act against the PC?s due to their actions. Every action will have a reaction. Bad things happen.
V. THE REALITY CLAUSE:
Realism is crucial, and will not be ignored. The Storyteller can make spot decisions if realism is threatened (example: a Vorpal Longsword vs. a Size: G creature) if the rules are unclear or wouldn?t be accurate due to the situation. Some things are impossible, as determined by the Storyteller. While the established rules take precedence, the Storyteller has the responsibility to overrule them on certain occasions when they cause continuity issues and potentially harm a story.
VI. THE WITNESS CLAUSE:
Players respect each other and the Storyteller, trust each other with respect to out-of-character information, and must be fair to the other players and the Storyteller, both in character creation and in character role-play. All players and the Storyteller have a right to see a player?s rolls, but the Storyteller?s rolls do not have to be seen by players because of the mechanics of the game; secrecy and out-of-character information make the game more fun.
Also, each player must recognize the need for the continuity of the group dynamic in a campaign. Mixed alignment groups can work, so long as all characters put the needs of group continuity before the aspect of properly role-playing their characters. Attacking the continuity of the group cannot be allowed.
VII. THE SPRIGGAN CLAUSE:
All players and the ST must remember that D&D is just a game. If frustrations take place, breaks should be taken. Nothing that happens in the game should upset the players or the Storyteller out-of-character. Work out problems. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not getting a power trip, not making game-breaking powerful characters, not hoarding treasure/items and/or experience, etc.
VIII. THE SOLITAIRE CLAUSE:
Laptops are useful for most everything, even gaming, but despite how much easier it is for things to be kept track of electronically, this is a ?Pen & Paper? game, and laptops really get in the way. They cause issues for proper role-play, as gamers often easily get distracted by things outside the game. The Storyteller can use a laptop if they choose, for the purposes of easier keeping track of the adventure, have better access to visuals, etc., since by definition they will not get distracted from running the game while in the middle of running it.
I hate playing with other people too. But imagine this.RaikuFA said:
A game, where the core mechanic was the story!
A story limited only by the imagination of guy rolling the dice behind the big sheet of cardboard.
Table top gaming is the purest way to experience a naturally evolving story.
Even if you have to put up with the pen and paper interface and those people who just want to Drink Alizé and get bitches
Sorry bro, but you're just playing with at least one asshole(the DM) maybe more. Tabletop games are fun because of the people you're with. If those people aren't fun people, the game won't be fun.RaikuFA said: