Tali's immune system - wait, what?

[Pyro Paul]

Okay, so I'm playing a Male Shep in Mass Effect 2 at the moment. I'm romancing Tali. And, recently, she told me something rather odd.

Quarians wear the suits because of extreme allergic reactions.

Okay, so far so good. But then she says that being on the ships has "weakened" quarian immune systems.

Quick medical fact - an allergic reaction is an increased immune response. If you are immune compromised (your immune system is weakened) you have less severe allergic reactions.

Now, maybe she meant that being in clean ships has made their immune systems more sensitive. She's a tech, not a biologist, after all.

BUT... when she comes to Shep's room, she says that she's taken immune Boosters. That would make allergic reactions worse, not better! She'd need to take an immuno-suppressant to reduce allergic reactions. Meaning that if Tali really did take this sort of medication, then a night with Shep is even more likely to kill her.

This bothered me. Which I know is silly, willing suspension of disbelief and all that, but anyone who does a quick google search can figure this much out about immune systems, to say nothing of anyone who has medical training.

So, for discussion, did this bother anyone else?

Also, why do you think they ret-conned the immune system stuff from the first game? I was perfectly happy when quarians had weak immune systems - but in ME2 they muddied the waters. So, why do you think Bioware did that?

Edit: I love the game, and I really enjoyed the Tali relationship, but this just bugged me a bit. So yes, I enjoy the game for what it is, but this left me confused.

she doesn't say that it is an alergic reaction, she states that it is something analagous to an alergic reaction seen in humans. throwing together an analogy so that shepard from his human background can understand the forign quarian biology.

it is some what explained in some back fluff that is optional and easily missable. the quarian homeworld lacks insects. because of this there is very few infectious or detrimental diseases for the species seen as how insects tend to be the catalyst for some of the most distructive sicknesses we've ever seen. (bubonic plauge - flees)

because of this, the few viruses that did manage to infect quarians where acctually accepted by the body rather then rejected. however, with years of sterility seen in the space craft the exiled quarian now call home, said immune system has gone unused. if subjected to any new forign agent it is likely that their immune system would try to rapidly assimilate it thus creating the 'infection'


do i like this explination?
hell no, i liked it better when they where like humans but exiled in space becoming immune deficent. Vaugeness is usually the best for any RPG.

 

[Sejs Cube]

Yeah, put another tick in the "it's best not to over-think this one" column.

On the one hand, the offered explanation(s) don't make very much biological sense ... allergic reactions, compromised immune system from living in a 'clean' environment (but still one that travels all over the place as space-gypsies), a home planet that's completely lacking in hostile or at least predatory microbial life, the fact that the story changed between the two games (now Quarians have to wear their suits all the time on their own, clean ships? Bwuh?), etc.

On the other hand, alien. Who's to say it couldn't work like that? I guess?

The best thing is to just ignore the whole situation and move on.

 

[Vrach]

snip

Correct me if I'm wrong (I played ME2 a while ago so I could well be) but the "allergic reaction" was something Tali used as an analogy if I remember correctly, not as a scientific explanation. More to the point, she was saying that due to their immune systems being weakened they're more prone to an infection, not an allergic reaction. Or maybe that's just how I remember it :\

 

[mikespoff]

So, think of it as immuno-compromised and needs boosters, or as hyper-susceptible to allergies and needs crazy anti-histamines.

I'd go with the first option as a logical extension of living in a sterile environment for a long time. In which case, her explanation of allergic reaction was a bad analogy (but sounds nicer than acute infection).

In the second case, her mention of "immuno-boosters" was her not being too clear on how to describe "these drugs that Dr Chakwas gave me that totally stop me getting a crazy immune response".

 

[Booze Zombie]

Parts of the story are rather mindless... I won't pretend I noticed this the first time, though.
I was tired as Hell by the time I reached that point in the game.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Actually, both the Tali romance and the Garrus romance bother me. According to the fiction present in the game, the tissue of a Quarian or a Turian is toxic to humans and Asari (and vice versa). Consider the romances with that in mind.

In Tali's romance, not only is the mere act of breaching the suit likely to make her incredibly ill but she is doing it in order to conduct an exchange of fluids with an entity comprised of poison. The mere act of kissing one another would guarantee some amount of toxic tissue was exchanged, and the act of intercourse itself would (if you assume intercourse with a Quarian is more or less identical to intercourse with a human female) deposit an enormous load of toxic tissue. Thus, not only is Shepard risking his own health in the process, he is asking Tali to breach her suit thus placing her in danger and then going through with an activity that will, as an inevitable result, result in some quantity of poison being delivered to her. The conclusion here is virtually inescapable: Shepard obviously does not care for Tali and his reckless disregard for her safety tells me he probably just wanted to nail another alien like some sort of future douchebag bro.

In the case of Garrus, recall that you are outright told (if you ask) that significant lubricants would be necessary to avoid intense discomfort during intercourse. Beyond that, the Turian body structure has numerous bony protrusions throughout. Given the delicate nature of the tissue in the female genital area (delicate enough that tearing is relatively common even when having intercourse with a member of the same species who, for the record, tend to keep our bones inside our skin and under layers of fat and muscle), it would seem inevitable that significant trauma would occur to the Female Shepard during an act of intercourse. Considering that, once again, Turian tissue is toxic, this means that she was basically injecting poison into her body through various tears in her vagina.

Neither of these encounters shows anything resembling sound judgment but at least FemShep isn't placing Garrus' life in terrible danger, or at least not to the same extent as the Male Shepard/Tali example. By contrast, the relationship possibilities with the human cast and Liara are at least sensible in most respects given that these relationships offer the possibility of reproduction (if desired) and do not involve intentionally introducing toxins into each others bodies by default.

 

[Lord_Panzer]

*rational scientific points regarding a work of fiction*

They're from the future. 'Immune Booster' could mean anything.
That's all I got.

 

[MetaMop]

I'd love to see a game made by the people on this thread. The attention to detail would be astounding.

 

[Ian Caronia]

Also, why do you think they ret-conned the immune system stuff from the first game? I was perfectly happy when quarians had weak immune systems - but in ME2 they muddied the waters. So, why do you think Bioware did that?

Bioware's biggest titles up to ME have been Star Wars and Fantasy related. Star Wars is also known as Science Fantasy, as opposed to Star Trek which is a key example of Science Fiction. In Science Fantasy, the way things work never have to be explained. Rather, it's better if they aren't. Plop in an inexplicable Deus Ex Machina (Mass Effect) and there you go. The focus is on the story and the characters, not the elements and, well, actual science of the world.
Science Fiction on the other hand incorporates real science to help bring it's fake science to life, and in doing so the science of the world become part of the story. That's why there's countless episodes of Star Trek where the plot might revolve around the engine, or the computer system, or the field generators, etc. There's still a focus on story and characters, of course, but it mainly incorporates science into the story whereas Science Fantasy just jumps the characters to warp speed to get the plot moving.

Now, that being said, look back at what I first mentioned. Bioware is known as being great for it's characters, not the science they bring to the table. The science in Mass Effect is softer than a marshmallow. This would be fine, if they didn't try to act like Star Trek and explain the science of the world. And the politics (and we all know what bringing actual politics into science fantasy does, don't we? ...Fucking George Lucas...). Once they start explaining the science they look stupid, because it's difficult to spout a bunch of half-assed bullshit that's better left simple and shallow so we can enjoy the story. Ex: Tali's immune system. Bad immune system? Immuno-boosters? Got it. You try expounding any more on that and you look dumb. In the novels the quarians are meant to be pretty short. They are not. Stop explaining superfluous shit when you aren't going to keep it consistent (though Cerberus and T.I.M was very nicely done).

A game that not only says there's multiple Black holes at the center of the galaxy (there's one supermassive black hole) but also has you FLY AROUND THE FUCKING THING should NOT be trying to act smart. At all. Just leave the science to the writers and hard fiction authors, Bioware. Do what you do best and write entertaining plots and really interesting characters...that we can have sex with. Long live Tali.

 

[bob-2000]

I don't think that she was being literal when she said that it was an allergic reaction, she was just explaining what it's like to get sic as a Quarian.

 

[Discrodia]

Here is the reason.
BW fans were obsessive so BW gave them tali as fanservice, and decided to change how quarians are so that they could have sex with her. Becuase fanservice > Lore it seems, kinda like how in DA2 Isabelle becaume younger, tanned and had bigger boobs.

You, good sir, are so terribly negative and yet so, so completely right.

*was one of those people who thought Tali was hot even before you could romance her*

 

[Ian Caronia]

Suspension of disbelief, I didn't think about it.

Suspension of disbelief doesn't excuse sloppy writing, and it's easily broken when confronted by it. First you need to make sure you ground your story in whatever fiction it's in. Then you need to keep the characters and world consistent. Ex: Batman can fly now. ON his own. He has super powers. What? You believe in Superman having super powers and a guy dressed in a costume fighting crime at night with no one ever figuring it out either.
See? Suspension of disbelief has it's limits. Though it's good that you were able to have fun despite that.
You also brought up a very good point, Ladette. Trying to make sense of Science Fantasy makes you look stupid for no reason. No need to explain. Just lets us kill things and talk to kick ass characters. That gif you have should've been sent to Bioware's writers.
That is hilarious, by the way. I have to use that. XD Good job with it, mate.

 

[gigastrike]

I thought the same thing during the game. In fact, I came to this thread hoping you would bring that up.

 

[Esyphelon]

Think of it as an error in the translation from quarian to english, I mean the races can't have just been speaking english that'd be stupid.

I could almost buy that, if they weren't very specific, very opposite terms.

You wouldn't put an ice-cube tray full of water in the oven and expect it to freeze. You would put it in the freezer. Quarians might call a freezer something different, but they wouldn't call it an oven.

Have you ever given thought to the fact that the immune boosters might be due to the aliens on the ship? We know that there is at least one alien on the Normandy that shares Tali's protein makeup - Garrus. It would also do well to remember that the Normandy SR-2 was built by a pro-human splinter group - a group very unlikely to make filtering of alien virii/bacteria a priority. So therefore I can see how Tali might see taking immune boosters a wise move. Another thing to consider is that Tali has mentioned before that she has cybernetic augmentations to her immune system. These might be the foundation of her "allergic" reactions. Which, in theory, could be another good reason to take immune boosters - seeing as the implants might be very aggressive in attacking things that the body does not understand.

All In all I like Tali. I like her story and I just plain old like her. Yes some of her dialog appears to be conflicting. But I think what I mentioned above provides at least a plausible theory for it.

Full disclaimer: I am not a doctor. As such I recognize that the probability of me being wrong is high.

 

[michael87cn]

I was much more bothered that they took her mask off, but refused to show her face. Seriously disappointing. I could understand if she was the player character (i.e. master chief) but, she's an npc for pete's sake... (whoever pete is).

 

[geldonyetich]

Easy answer: Bioware's writers aren't medically inclined. What they're trying to say is that Quarians would die from exposure to things that wouldn't kill races with immune systems that haven't been weakened from generations spent in clean ship environments, not that Tali is in danger of coming down with an exceptionally bad case of the sniffles.

Personally, I preferred Tali and my Shepard's relationship remained platonic. I'm a little disappointed Bioware encourages players to suggest that if it's female, possibly alien, and on Shepard's crew, he must have the option to stick it in. Moreso disappointed when said alien has an immune deficiency that makes Shepard's fun potentially lethal for them. But, hey, I guess if your writers are perverted enough to suggest alien sex is awesome and mainstream, biological safety is a moot point.

 

[migo]

It is sort of ironic, this mistake coming from a company that started out developing medical software.

Err, no, they were all doctors, but they started out making games.

 

[easternflame]

Well yeah I suppose its a bit bothersome but I still think its irrelevant